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  1. #1
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Default Tinfoil hat time . . . Saving Throws

    Anyone else thing the devs are planning yet another insane systems changes?

    I'm thinking we'll see saves working on the same scale as AC. Appropriately somebody at Turbine has a problem with D20 mechanics.

    It makes sense. necro Casters still will be useless in end-game. EE FOT requires over a 70 Reflex save to avoid anything. Good monks will be getting between a 75-80 QP DC.

    Is my tinfoil wrapped too tight or am I seeing the future again?

  2. #2
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    I prefer this model of tinfoil hat due to the modern design and one size fits all feature.

    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #3
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    I don't think they are there yet, and I'm hopeful they don't tinker with systems again.

  4. #4
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    I honestly think that sounds like a great idea!

    The d20 system is not good for an MMO.

  5. #5
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    No tinfoil hat needed, it's going to happen eventually if the level cap rises past 30. It's in exactly the same boat AC was (useless for a lot of characters, guaranteed for others, very little and shrinking area of middle ground). It hasn't reached the same numbers as AC, so if they don't raise the level cap any more, there's a decent chance it can stay as it is. Luckily, they have no plans for going past 30 in the forseeable future, so it looks like saves are safe, at least for now.

  6. #6
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Is my tinfoil wrapped too tight or am I seeing the future again?
    Maybe it's a tumor?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Anyone else thing the devs are planning yet another insane systems changes?

    I'm thinking we'll see saves working on the same scale as AC. Appropriately somebody at Turbine has a problem with D20 mechanics.

    It makes sense. necro Casters still will be useless in end-game. EE FOT requires over a 70 Reflex save to avoid anything. Good monks will be getting between a 75-80 QP DC.

    Is my tinfoil wrapped too tight or am I seeing the future again?
    Erm let's hope so. This obviously needs to happen. Something I've been championing for awhile.

  8. #8
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artoo-Deetoo View Post

    The d20 system is not good for an MMO.
    Wrong.

    Power creep and insane stat/CR inflation is what's not good for an MMO.

    the D20 was design by way better game designers than these guys.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Wrong.

    Power creep and insane stat/CR inflation is what's not good for an MMO.

    the D20 was design by way better game designers than these guys.
    Wow, totally agreed, lol. Tho I hope some of the designers are aware of the real problem and simply aren't in a postion of power or influence. Hoping a few of them can see the real problem is about as optimistic as I get.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Wrong.

    Power creep and insane stat/CR inflation is what's not good for an MMO.

    the D20 was design by way better game designers than these guys.
    Sorry, but no. The D20 design was not designed by better MMO designers than DDO.

    In an MMO, without power creep, things stay stagnant, become boring and the game dies. There's certainly too much power creep in DDO. Turbine hasn't found that sweet spot yet, but D20 breaks down as the game expands, no matter the rate of expansion.

  11. #11
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Sorry, but no. The D20 design was not designed by better MMO designers than DDO.

    In an MMO, without power creep, things stay stagnant, become boring and the game dies. There's certainly too much power creep in DDO. Turbine hasn't found that sweet spot yet, but D20 breaks down as the game expands, no matter the rate of expansion.
    You are wrong.

    Power creep is bad, end of discussion.

    The insane number inflation is the issue, not the D20 system. Every non-D&D system Turbine has come up with has made the game worse. These guys just aren't as good at their jobs as the guys who did D&D, every system they've created is inferior.

    I'm sorry, 75 INT is retarded. CR 73 trash mobs is retarded. Monks getting insta-kill DCs 10-15 above maxed PMs is retarded.

    This is the problem, not the D20.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 08-14-2013 at 10:25 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You are wrong, one of the constants of the universe.

    Power creep is bad, end of discussion.

    The insane number inflation is the issue, not the D20 system. Every non-D&D system Turbine has come up with has made the game worse. These guys just aren't as good at their jobs as the guys who did D&D, every system they've created is inferior.
    No.

    The current AC and to-hit systems are better.

    D20 breaks down as mobs get stronger. If mobs never got stronger, then we'd be in a state of stagnation, and there would never be any new challenge whatsoever, not that there's much now. But at least as mobs get stronger, there's a few days period where things can be a challenge until you get properly geared and learn the quests. This would never happen if things just stayed the same.
    Last edited by IWCoppercrest; 08-15-2013 at 07:09 PM.

  13. #13
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Power creep and insane stat/CR inflation is what's not good for an MMO.
    Power creep is an inevitable consequence of players clamoring for more powerful gear, which in turn drives stat inflation, which leads to stronger gear - the cycle feeds itself. But had they left DDO balanced the way PnP D&D is, people would complain about how boring the endgame is, because - guess what? - the PnP rules were never designed to support the raid grinding which the MMO community expects.

    That's what happens when you take a rule system designed to support actual role-playing and shoehorn it into the endless hamster wheel which is the MMO experience.

    I'm not disagreeing here, but what's the solution? Turbine has pushed the d20 system past the breaking point; but aren't we also past the point of no return?

  14. #14
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    I'm not disagreeing here, but what's the solution? Turbine has pushed the d20 system past the breaking point; but aren't we also past the point of no return?
    What they can do and should do is when power-creep creates an issue don't fix it with more power-creep. U16-U17 had a saves jump to the point where DC caster just became meh. The right way to address this would have been to lower the mob saves. The dumb way to address this, which is what eventually happened, was to give players higher DCs. This causes more issues than it fixes.

    Don't swallow a spider to catch the fly.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You know nothing. Stop posting.
    You clearly know nothing. You either don't play DDO, or have never played PnP because it's obvious you can't differentiate between the ecosystem each game provides.

    And it's also clear that you don't want a challenge in a game. Which is fine, but there are a million facebook games that you could be playing, instead of coming here and trying to change an MMO into your definition of fun.

    PreMOTU, I had a fvs demiGod toon that just trivialized epic content. Without an increase in mob power, my little demigod would trivialize all further content. This isn't fun for me, so obviously a lack of changes that made this situation permanent would be a horrible design decision. Yet, this is exactly what you seem to want. Sorry, but no.

  16. #16
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    You clearly know nothing.
    I know everything, but not everyone is intelligent enough to appreciate the genius that is my trolling. I'll try to break it down into simple phrases.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    You either don't play DDO, or have never played PnP because it's obvious you can't differentiate between the ecosystem each game provides.
    It's very easy to tell PnP from an MMO. The good ideas come from PnP, the dumb ideas all come from an MMO.

    MMOs double-down on what's stupid instead of trying to fix things.


    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    And it's also clear that you don't want a challenge in a game. Which is fine, but there are a million facebook games that you could be playing, instead of coming here and trying to change an MMO into your definition of fun.
    The game's not challenging now when you bring toons that don't rely on DCs. Seriously, I'm sure you've done EEs with groups full of fury-shotters and Shiradi-casters.

    Tell me there's actually ANY challenge in those setups?

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    PreMOTU, I had a fvs demiGod toon that just trivialized epic content. Without an increase in mob power, my little demigod would trivialize all further content. This isn't fun for me, so obviously a lack of changes that made this situation permanent would be a horrible design decision. Yet, this is exactly what you seem to want. Sorry, but no.
    I got a joke for you . . . what do you call a completionist FvS with a 58 Evocation/Necor DC?

    A Hjealbot!

    This isn't broken? Really? This is how the game should be?

  17. #17
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Power creep is bad: but so is stagnation.

    We already have power creep that will not be undone.

    My own (unpopular) suggestion is a cap on may abilities based on level.
    This will let the devs know exactly what numbers to design quests for.

    As the level cap is raised so is the cap on abilities.
    So grinding gear still has value... just not necessarily immediately.
    Or maybe grinding allows more gear flexibility.


    But... actually, I do support a change from D20 to what they did with AC.
    This also gives value to grinding but keeps things under control as well.




    For the record, I would have preferred this game stuck to 3.5 D20 D&D rules a lot more than it did.
    I would have preferred they did not let the power creep go as far as it has.

    Many other things I would have preferred about DDO too....

    But they chose a different route.
    In fact, in most cases they gave players exactly what they asked for!


    In NO CASE have I ever seen anyone ask for the devs to control "THEIR" character. To limit their character in any way.

    But hundreds of cries to nerf "THAT GUY!" The other guy.....




    Anyway, the real important thing is to make sure the game is playable by both those who grind and those who don't.

    As well as make sure all of our abilities have value. (for example DC casting... and saves should both have a chance of working....... other than on a roll of 1 or 20. )
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  18. #18
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    Power creep is bad: but so is stagnation.

    We already have power creep that will not be undone.
    But they have the power to not make things worse. Fixing an issue caused by creep with more creep is dumb.


    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    My own (unpopular) suggestion is a cap on may abilities based on level.
    This will let the devs know exactly what numbers to design quests for. .
    Not a bad idea, but WE ALREADY HAVE THIS. +X stat items at level X, min-level X caster items, this already exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    But... actually, I do support a change from D20 to what they did with AC.
    This also gives value to grinding but keeps things under control as well.
    This is where you are wrong. The range of viable DCs isn’t anywhere near as large what we had with AC. The different between a maxed out DC caster and somebody just trying with ghetto gear is about 4 DC. Fits easily on a D20.

    The problem isn’t the D20.

  19. #19
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Anyone else thing the devs are planning yet another insane systems changes?

    I'm thinking we'll see saves working on the same scale as AC. Appropriately somebody at Turbine has a problem with D20 mechanics.

    It makes sense. necro Casters still will be useless in end-game. EE FOT requires over a 70 Reflex save to avoid anything. Good monks will be getting between a 75-80 QP DC.

    Is my tinfoil wrapped too tight or am I seeing the future again?
    They desperately need to focus on adjusting their borked CR conversion forumla.

    I'm already getting reports (second hand information), that the current max int forumla offers zero gains for dc casting in the highest level content. It's beyond retarded that melee classes can obtain higher and more effective dc's than arcane and divine min-maxed casters.

    If that isn't bottom barrel broken, I don't know what else could be...
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
    And an army of gimp experiments!

  20. #20
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    But they have the power to not make things worse. Fixing an issue caused by creep with more creep is dumb.




    Not a bad idea, but WE ALREADY HAVE THIS. +X stat items at level X, min-level X caster items, this already exists.



    This is where you are wrong. The range of viable DCs isn’t anywhere near as large what we had with AC. The different between a maxed out DC caster and somebody just trying with ghetto gear is about 4 DC. Fits easily on a D20.

    The problem isn’t the D20.
    I used the "abilities" in a more generic sense. I meant everything. Spell DCs. Saving throws, AC... everything should have a cap (IMO) based on level.

    They are doing a better and better job if this, but they also keep giving us more and more powerful stuff (and bugs, or not well thought out before implementation...etc.)


    If the difference is only about 4 DC, then you are right... we do not need to abandon the D20 system.
    But I think it is higher than that.

    ... and I am not necessarily saying it is time to abandon D20. But I do see that as an option, and I like what they did with AC.

    My AC now has meaning. Things miss me sometimes.
    I do not grind or build solely for AC, yet my better equipped toons have an AC that feels very significant.. even in EEs. Even though other people have waaaaay higher ACs than me, mine had value, and theirs does not grant them immunity.

    I have yet to hear a valid argument on why the AC changes was bad....

    Yes, power creep is bad... I totally agree on that.
    Yes, they should try to avoid it going further IMO. (but people demanding MORE POWER! and an MMO exists to make money .. and they need to keep people paying...)

    I want DC casting to be useful and fun.
    I want saves to have meaning.
    AC, DR... everything else....

    But I also want to see people challenged. I do not want to see one attack/defense/whatever be an easy button.

    I hate grinding, but I do not want to see those who grinded punished.... their work (stupidity...whatever) should be rewarded.... just not at the expense of the rest of us.


    The game should not stagnate.
    We should be able to get more powerful.

    But power creep should be controlled. (tightly controlled IMO)

    a slow gradual increase of power. Increasing the challenge first, then the players...



    Also: there are ways to reward grinding without letting people get to powerful.
    Gear slots for instance, allow more total power but if stacking rules are strictly followed, no single area gets overpowered.

    for example: Enchantment and Necro DCs can be increased by wearing two items, but Necro DCs still kept in check. (yes, I know we have that now)

    HP increased, AC increaed... both capped or controlled to not exceed a certain value....

    Hard to explain what I mean, but plenty of ways IMO to reward grinding, by adding depth to play abilities, while controlling specific abilities to not get overpowered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

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