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  1. #61
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    Default The tide ... tides

    I stopped playing much a coupla years ago 'cos life took over. Only for a few months.
    I came back to find out that all the +x items I had banked were worthless because now you could get the same stat/skill bonus 2 levels earlier.
    If this 'new' system is simply taking things back to the 'old' levels then we can call it a nuisance, an annoyance, a pain in the a**e, but we cannot say it's unreasonable. It's more DnD and it's what we had for 5 years b4.

    As to the old Risia bits adding - that will hit me hard ... but it's hardly char breaking, let alone game breaking.

    The next few weeks are gonna be so full of d00m, fanboi, genius & mentallist threads 'n builds that for good or bad, this topic will disappear. Save the grouch - totally valid as it is - till a time when it will get noticed!

    Meantime, start checking those TR caches on your alts - could be a goldmine!

  2. #62
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    wow just wow...feather the part in all this that is the worst isnt the changes, but the statement that says veey few weapons will be affected..

    1200 weapons isnt hyperbole its a fact ..people who have read this post have approached me in game and i have chain linked them into belief

    as a dev you know ime not lying you know what we have in our invs but you continously say that these changes arent all that big..

    just some weapons from a active toon ime playing

    +2 flaming burst of greater construct bane ml12 pwr #10 after xpack pwr#10 =ml 18
    +1 shock of smiting ml12 pwr 9 ml16 after xpack
    +1 forcefull ml 8 pwr 7 ml12 after xpack
    +1 paralyzing ml 10 pwr 8 ml14 after xpack
    +1 ghost touch of disruption ml 12 pwr 8 ml 14 after xpack
    +1 disruption rr ml8 pwr 8 ml14 after xpack
    +1 anarchtic of greater poison ml 10 pwr 8 ml14 after xpack
    +1 holy of pure good ml 6 pwr 6 ml 10 after xpack

    these are just some weapons that are in a tr ime working on ...some of the mls listed are standard mls that we have seen for years

    so hyperbole is not present here .... now if you had said you plwers are to powerfull so we are raising the mls of most random gens that are worth keeping ..well theres not much i can say to that

    but to say most weapons wont be affected when you know most will ..well thats just intentionaly misleading

  3. #63
    Community Member moomooprincess's Avatar
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    Default I checked my spreadsheet I have for weapons

    From my old spreadsheet, on two servers. I know I have some Festival frost on another server

    I have around 500 items and weapons from the pre-FESTIVAL ice games on two servers. I don't have any of my glaciation stuff on this list.

    I have 403 with just FROST on them. 101 with Icy Burst on them. 61 with Festival Icy Burst on them. 300 items with FESTIVAL FROST on them.

    some EXAMPLES

    character plus type prefix what suffix level race

    character 5 Short Sword Thundering Icy Burst Greater Giant bane 16
    character 3 Short Sword Banishing Icy Burst Pure Good 16
    character 5 Rapier Cursespewing Icy Burst 14
    character 5 Short Sword Shock Icy Burst Puncturing 14
    character 4 Morningstar Paralyzing Icy Burst 14 WF
    character 4 Short Sword Shock Icy Burst Greater Aberration Bane 14
    character 3 Short Sword Paralyzing Icy Burst 14
    character 5 Short Sword Flaming Icy Burst Pure Good Silver 12
    character 3 Long Sword Metalline Icy Burst Pure Good 10
    character 4 Long Sword Crippling Icy Burst Pure Good 8 WF
    character 1 Rapier Flaming Icy Burst Greater Evil Outsider Bane 8
    character 5 Kukri Wounding Icy Burst Enfeebling 16 dwarf
    character 5 Khopesh Cursespewing Icy Burst Sneak Attack +1 16
    character 3 Dwarven Axe Keen Icy Burst Smiting 16
    character 3 Dwarven Axe Paralyzing Icy Burst Deception Byeshk 16
    character 5 Dwarven Axe Wounding Icy Burst 14
    character 5 Kama Keen Icy Burst Parrying Adamantine 14
    character 4 Mace, Light Impact Icy Burst Greater Elemental Bane 14
    character 4 Battle Axe Keen Icy Burst Greater Dragon Bane 14
    character 4 Scimitar Metalline Icy Burst Enfeebling 14
    character 2 Long Sword Bodyfeeder Icy Burst Greater Giant bane 14
    character 1 Dwarven Axe Paralyzing Icy Burst Slowburst 14
    character 1 Short Bow Icy Burst Disruption 14
    character 1 Scimitar Icy Burst Smiting 14
    character 3 Long Sword Crippling Icy Burst Greater Dwarf Bane 12
    character 2 Long Sword Paralyzing Icy Burst Tendon Slice 2% 12
    character 1 Scimitar Paralyzing Icy Burst Deception 12
    character 2 Dwarven Axe Keen Icy Burst Greater Dragon Bane 10
    character 2 Dwarven Axe Keen Icy Burst Greater Gnoll Bane 10
    character 1 Longbow, Composite Icy Burst Greater Undead bane 10
    character 5 Short Sword Icy Burst 6 WF


    Luckily, this will force a thinning out of my loot. Any cursespewing is now worthless. Enfeebling and Greater Gnoll Bane? Oh my. I will free up some inventory space.

    Woohee, do I have some junk on my original server.

    I wonder how this looks when I post it?
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  4. #64
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    +5 Icy Burst WOP rapier went from level 16 to level 20.

    Excuse me while I put more pins in my FoS voodoo doll.

  5. #65
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericrd View Post
    wow just wow...feather the part in all this that is the worst isnt the changes, but the statement that says veey few weapons will be affected..

    1200 weapons isnt hyperbole its a fact ..people who have read this post have approached me in game and i have chain linked them into belief

    as a dev you know ime not lying you know what we have in our invs but you continously say that these changes arent all that big..

    just some weapons from a active toon ime playing

    +2 flaming burst of greater construct bane ml12 pwr #10 after xpack pwr#10 =ml 18
    +1 shock of smiting ml12 pwr 9 ml16 after xpack
    +1 forcefull ml 8 pwr 7 ml12 after xpack
    +1 paralyzing ml 10 pwr 8 ml14 after xpack
    +1 ghost touch of disruption ml 12 pwr 8 ml 14 after xpack
    +1 disruption rr ml8 pwr 8 ml14 after xpack
    +1 anarchtic of greater poison ml 10 pwr 8 ml14 after xpack
    +1 holy of pure good ml 6 pwr 6 ml 10 after xpack

    these are just some weapons that are in a tr ime working on ...some of the mls listed are standard mls that we have seen for years

    so hyperbole is not present here .... now if you had said you plwers are to powerfull so we are raising the mls of most random gens that are worth keeping ..well theres not much i can say to that

    but to say most weapons wont be affected when you know most will ..well thats just intentionaly misleading
    It looks to me like some of the power ratings on those weapons are bugged.

    For example the +1 paralyzing weapon having a power rating of 8. That means that it's counting paralyzing as a +7 effect. Same goes for the smiting, disruption, etc.

    If, after the update goes live, those weapons still have the same power ratings, i would bug report it. I'ts not fair that you would only get the negative aspect of the change, and not the good part. If what feather says is true about new valuations for those effects, those items should actually have lower minimum levels. If the new system can recalculate the minimum level, why can't it recalculate the power rating?

  6. #66
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    +5 Icy Burst WOP rapier went from level 16 to level 20.

    Excuse me while I put more pins in my FoS voodoo doll.
    For crafted shards, wounding is +3, and puncturing is +2. Currently. So the ml of 16 would be correct.
    Edit: The correct ml should be 18.

    My only guess is that they also changed the power rating of one or both of those effects.

    I'd like to see a complete list of exactly what changes has been made to the power ratings of all these effects.

  7. #67
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    I'm afraid I don't understand.
    Why do you dislike that we are making Crafted and Random treasure calculate their levels the same way?

    Since Crafted weapons, armor, and shields used to be 1 level higher than comparable random items, that means that their minimum level requirements are dropping by 1 with Update 19.

    While we appreciate feedback, it's hard to understand what you're objecting to here.



    This change occurred when Cannith Crafting was first introduced.
    Please don't change the festival gear. If you make this gear N/A for leveling up it will be completely useless. Yes, as Impact said, we ground out a lot of stuff back in the very first festival. Why screw us today (or Monday)?

    Please don't retroactively change gear. If you really MUST change yet another system, make it active from this point on.

    You have made so much of this game revolve around TRs and re-leveling and now you are messing around with all of our leveling gear. This is very frustrating. I've played since a month after launch and have had as many as 10 characters active. A year or so ago I went down to 3 that I was actively playing. In recent months I've dropped all the way down to just one that I'm bothering with. Too many nerfs and changes for no reason over many years has left me wondering if you still want old players like me hanging around. Maybe the answer is no. My sub over the last 7 years is maybe nothing compared to the new revenue of the store and the micro transaction model...
    /sigh

  8. #68
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    the people it is affecting are those who sought after gear with a low minimum level for TRing.

    Min lvl 4 Festival Icy burst shock of pure good
    Min lvl 4 Festival Icy burst vicious of pure good

    now the Festival Icy burst will not increase the Min lvl on these treasured twink items but, the pure good might.

    A great many player who TR often are always on the look out for items with a low Min lvl

    this is why everyone is upset these twink items are prized
    What you say makes sense, but I do find it weird that people who TR often can't make do with a slightly weaker weapon at level 4. I often wear sub-optimal armor and use sub-optimal weapons all the way to 11, when I can pull some greensteel gear out of the bank, and notice I'm still using a +3 CON item.

    Because 1-11 is just that easy for a vet.

    But I know there are people who care about every single +1 at every single level (1 extra minute wasted TRing is a minute I could be using to TR again!)
    Last edited by Thrudh; 08-16-2013 at 10:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
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    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  9. #69
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericrd View Post
    wow just wow...feather the part in all this that is the worst isnt the changes, but the statement that says veey few weapons will be affected..

    1200 weapons isnt hyperbole its a fact
    Probably 0.0001% of players in this game are obsessed enough to have collected 1200 old random gen weapons.

    It appears there may be a bug, and some weapons are higher than expected (like smiting and paralyzing, etc. weapons).

    Devs, could you check that?

    But if it's really only affecting original Risia weapons and 3+ year old pure good weapons, then yeah it's going to affect very few weapons and even fewer players.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    What you say makes sense, but I do find it weird that people who TR often can't make do with a slightly weaker weapon at level 4. I often wear sub-optimal armor and use sub-optimal weapons all the way to 11, when I can pull some greensteel gear out of the bank, and notice I'm still using a +3 CON item.

    Because 1-11 is just that easy for a vet.

    But I know there are people who care about every single +1 at every single level (1 extra minute wasted TRing is a minute I could be using to TR again!)
    I don't think it's a case of not being able to get by without the gear, certainly in my case, it's more about smoothing the ride a bit.

    For a (probably poor) analogy: Imagine if there was a bug tomorrow and all movement speed increasers stopped functioning, Striders, Haste, Sprint Boosts, Monk Speed all of them.

    Could we get by without them? Certainly, but the ride would be nowhere near as fun.


    When it comes to gear, we invested time and energy acquiring it specifically to smooth that ride and having it suddenly become worthless is the equivalent to me of say the hypothetical movement speed bug with an added insult to the injury of having our time and energy essentially dismissed as unimportant.

    What I'm going to miss the most is my BTA ML 0 Ring of 30% Striding. The thing has the durability of a wet paper bag in a hurricane, but it helped ease my way through the early levels when alternative rings were lacking at best.

    There's no way that anyone can try to claim that 30% Striding at Level 1 is over powered, because even Turbine agrees it isn't (Quiver of Alacrity).

    I've been using that ring because Abbot hates me and in 44 runs on my Ranger and 27 runs on my Monk, still no Quiver.

  11. #71
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    I understand that the reason for this change is so that the developers don't have to spend as much time dealing with random loot which seems like a good thing.

    It's too bad the devs couldn't throw a masterful or wondrous craftmanship on to iimpacated items to lessen the impact.

    Overall, seems like a good thing for DDO if the developers can spend less time on mundane things. I can deal with some items going up in level
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  12. #72
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel_666 View Post
    What I'm going to miss the most is my BTA ML 0 Ring of 30% Striding. The thing has the durability of a wet paper bag in a hurricane, but it helped ease my way through the early levels when alternative rings were lacking at best.
    FYI, you can find ML 1 items with Expeditious Retreat on them.... Since they changed min duration of level 1 spells to 5 minutes, Exp Retreat works quite well in the lower levels... The boots from Korthos give you 10 minutes of 25% speed per shrine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  13. #73
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    This reads as hyperbole to me, which is difficult to respond to. I'll give it my best, though.

    Only a few things are increasing the level of existing items:
    • Items crafted from the very first Risia Ice Games with "Frost" or "Icy Burst" will go up in level. (Items with "Festival Frost" or "Festival Icy Burst" from more recent Risia Ice Games will NOT go up in level.)
    • The bugged rings from a few content packs that had no minimum level at all are finally fixed.
    • Very old items with Pure Good from before Pure Good's value was raised from +1 to +2 will increase in level accordingly.
    1) Wrong, lots of us participated in the first Risia game and we made most of our items at that time ( I know I have at least 5 or 6 like that, while I only have 1 or 2 from the with the Festival prefix ).
    2) Nothing to say here, it was bound to happen... I don't think I have one anyway.
    3) Do you have any idea how many items it's going to impact ?

    Pure Good is one of the 'wanted' power on a weapon, so everybody has at least 2 or 3 weapons with it ( as it usually doesn't come alone ).
    For changes like that an impact study should be done...
    select count(*) from ( select items from ( select characters from account where account = all ) where power = "Pure Good") ) should give you the number of items with pure good.
    Then it's not that hard to speculate how many are old and how many are new... based on the age of the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    Realistically, this is not negatively affecting most people, and the systematic improvements to the functionality of the game that it results in are worth it.
    Realistically, it is affecting negatively most people, simply because Pure Good is a most wanted property and Icy Kits from the first Risia festival were the most used.
    And unless you did look into the database for the actual numbers of affected items you have no clue of the impact these changes will have. We on the other hand know what we have in our inventory and we know that we will be impacted, some of us to a lesser extend others that took the time to farm Risia kits and find the best Pure Good items for a given level will get hugelly impacted.

    You also didn't address this :

    Quote Originally Posted by unacceptable View Post
    What about the bound to account loot we received as arc end rewards. Those are all going up at least 2 levels. I am not referring to the bugged items from the madness chain. I am referring to the items received as end rewards for waterworks, STK, tangleroot, etc.
    Those early chains gives us the option to receive a BTC or a BTA random lootgen item that has a ML two level lower than it should normally be. How these items are going to be affected by the changes ?
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  14. #74
    Community Member LightBear's Avatar
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    Not only bound to character/account items are effected but race restricted items as well probably.

    Did anybody check the items out with?

    I'm wondering what this change does for named items as well; like the Quiver of Alacrity?

    One, two! One, two! and through and through. The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
    He left it dead, and with its head. He went galumphing back.

  15. #75
    Community Member moomooprincess's Avatar
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    Default I think lacerating trumps pure good

    I understand that this change in the database will be a good thing in the long run.

    The problem with all the new lacerating weapons is that they become BTC. Still, when I play on a new server I look for one nice lacerating weapon to get my character through the first 8 levels.

    I understand that this change in the database will be a good thing in the long run.

    Why? Frees up a lot of inventory. Before I would look for a level 6 greater bane or a level 6 race restricted item, or even better a level 4 race restricted greater bane(rare for me to find). Now, I look for a race restricted lacerating weapon.

    I understand that this change in the database will be a good thing in the long run.

    I remember knowing that since my old risia ice games weapons had their prefix changed, that I was HOPING there would be a fernia Fire Games so I could add FESTIVAL FLAMING BURST to my weapons. Sadly, this was an advantage for me so that was not going to happen.

    I understand that this change in the database will be a good thing in the long run.

    When Cannith first came out ML of items was actually lower than the random loot. I could craft a +6 strength item for a level 11. Now, +6 items are the norm. I could craft a +10 disable device item for a level 7, now that is the norm. Crafting armor has always been one level HIGHER than the norm. You want +5 armor? That is a level 9. All this is my past experience and maybe crafting has changed since I only deconstruct now and I don't craft anything.


    I understand that this change in the database will be a good thing in the long run. Will we have string errors again?

    I am going to go buy a new car today. Me and the honey are traveling to the BIG CITY for the best deal. It is her anniversary present. She is positively giddy, she loves spending money then complaining about us not having money.
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  16. #76
    Community Member Xaxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    So you are claiming you Icy Bursted 1200 weapons the first time the Risia Ice Games came around? And you still use all those weapons today?

    I'm thinking you are definitely in a VERY small minority.
    He may not have over 1200... but I DO have over a 100 weapons with frost and icy burst on them from the early games and almost all are level 1-12....

    I really don't give two flying fubars if im in a small majority... I've taken screenshots of every item and will bug them all with a request to change the icy burst on it to festival icy burst and frost to festival frost... I see no reason what so ever that I should be hammered if everyone else isn't... heck to the no....

    Every time a bug report gets closed, they get another one... not my fault the created a bug on their own event from a few years ago, let them fix it since you know.. their job and all to fix what they fubar.

    Yes I been here long enough to know that I have over a 100 pieces of dead weight on my hands and that they wont do a danged thing about it... but they always want bug reports, to me this is a massive bug, and I'm just doing my job as a concerned player to remind them of it.

  17. #77
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    I'm afraid I don't understand.
    Well at least you admit to it. Though most of us have known this for some time. It is very obvious you don't understand. I won't be losing any sleep over the loss of the no minimum level rings because I did view it as a bug. But it was a bug that the developers knew about for a long time. Despite being easily corrected they left the bug in place. It might easily be suggested that this was an attempt to sell an adventure pack that was otherwise not worth purchasing.

    Something to keep in mind is that TRing is being once again used as the end game for DDO. Yet this change is destroying many of the items we would have used for TRing. Thus it will discourage us to TR. I already know a number of my guildies who used to TR quite regularly are now stating they have little intention of ever TRing again.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 08-17-2013 at 09:51 AM.
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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FnaCotton View Post
    Feather has been extremely responsive and helpful in my opinion. The devs can't and respond to everything.
    Fanboi much?
    Apparently "fanboi" now describes anyone who dislikes something but is capable of remaining civil and rational. So I guess now to not be a fanboy one apparently must leg kick and tantrum and call names while not being happy about a change. It's not enough for Unacceptable to disagree with the change while showing manners and affording another human being some basic dignity... Now one must behave like an anonymous child.
    Kind of ironic that you dont approve of everyone who likes a change receiving the fanboi label (neither do i) however, you then talk about everyone who doesnt like the change as leg kicking, tantrum, and calling names. I dismiss both of these extreme assumptions as well rehearsed ad hominem responses by people who disagree with a specific stance, but have no refutation of that stance whatsoever. To engage in one while rediculing the other is a direct contradiction.
    I think you misunderstood something.

    EDIT: or quoted the wrong post.
    Last edited by MindCakes; 08-17-2013 at 10:33 AM.

  19. #79
    Community Member Jeremiah179's Avatar
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    Kind of jumping in late --

    I just buy some base junk off of the AH if I TR'ed unprepared. I craft whatever I can on it for a slight advantage...

    I am level 5 before I notice I should probably re-gear.

    I throw on a couple Chronoscope items maybe... Shocking gloves at least usually. Make 4-5 random pieces of gear and roll on...

    Now I usually don't bother until around 11?

    Then I might bother around 12-14 when shroud gear becomes active...maybe... or just throw on Green Steel and move on.

    12-20 -- I of course take advantage of anything I have or maybe buy an item or two off AH... but I also don't mind trying to find (via loot) some gear during these levels that is better than what I have... something fun to do for me I guess.

    Bottom Line: I know it is disappointing. But I cant imagine gear really is deal breaking level 1-5, that is the first day of TR and other than a few convenience items... like detect secret door... I hardly know what is needed here.

    I have only TR'ed about 5 times across 3 characters now by the way... so I am a novice at best and it is a non issue for me.

    I remember when I first started, I had a mule with 100s of saved potions, cures etc. Adding up to thousands... one day I realized I dont ever use them and sold them all off... it was liberating. (vendor trash sold I mean) (I also realized I could easily buy them all, but I was new when I started collecting and did not have the plat!)

    Then there was the day I realized my mule with 25 quivers full of arrows that I had saved from every playing hour of every toon... meaningless. And another empty mule was born. Did I sell at least the good arrows? No. Arrows are mostly meaningless and hard to switch in the heat of battle... game is broken for using arrows... vendor trash again.

    I would really like to know in these 1200 and 500+ weapon examples, how many actual weapons from the cache did you actually take out and use for more than... well at all. In the past year?

    The honest answer to this, is why some think there is an over reaction to a largely beneficial change to the CURRENT game.

    To the OP: It always is disappointing to discover our hobby was meaningless, even if we stopped doing our hobby years ago... it would be like saving 500 McDonalds toys and finding out 10 years later they are worth about $100.00 if you pay someone $30.00 to unload them...lol
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  20. #80
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah179 View Post
    I would really like to know in these 1200 and 500+ weapon examples, how many actual weapons from the cache did you actually take out and use for more than... well at all. In the past year?
    Heh, I'd like to know this too...

    To the OP: It always is disappointing to discover our hobby was meaningless, even if we stopped doing our hobby years ago... it would be like saving 500 McDonalds toys and finding out 10 years later they are worth about $100.00 if you pay someone $30.00 to unload them...lol
    I played one other MMO seriously before this one.. It was a text-based MUD that was quite intricate. I was younger then and not married and I played for hours and hours and hours. Occasionally, a GM-run merchant would come along and make custom-crafted items for people. It was a random roll among everyone in the room to see who got to go next. The only way to get a truly unique item in the game. I stayed up until 5:00 am when I had to be a work at 8:00 am at least 10 times, and got 5-6 unique awesome items for my trouble over the years.

    And then I finally quit the game.... Do I look back now and think, "Wow, what a waste of time!". A little bit, but I sure had a lot of fun playing that game, and still remember it fondly.

    I've been much more balanced in my approach to DDO, and I'm much happier for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

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