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  1. #1
    Lamannia Coordinator SqueakofDoom's Avatar
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    Default The Official Dwarf Enhancements Discussion Thread!

    We are currently previewing Racial Enhancements on Lamannia.

    Please use this thread to share your thoughts on the Dwarf Enhancement Tree!
    Last edited by SqueakofDoom; 07-03-2013 at 07:21 AM.

  2. #2
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    So dwarves can now get bonuses to picks and hammers. Nice.

  3. #3
    The Hatchery psteen1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    So dwarves can now get bonuses to picks and hammers. Nice.
    AHH! If Lamannia is updated and running, give us more details please for the suckers stuck at work. Like me.

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    Well, for example there's stuff for heavy armor and shield users, bonus to potions and possibility to use CON for damage when using axes, hammers, mauls or picks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    Well, for example there's stuff for heavy armor and shield users, bonus to potions and possibility to use CON for damage when using axes, hammers, mauls or picks.
    Brother . . . can you spare a screenshot?
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    Community Member TPICKRELL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Brother . . . can you spare a screenshot?
    I'm stuck at work too, but I imagine screen shots won't work, because the info will be in mouseovers like they are on the ED trees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TPICKRELL View Post
    I'm stuck at work too, but I imagine screen shots won't work, because the info will be in mouseovers like they are on the ED trees.

    only one solution... MOAR SCREENSHOTS PLEASE!!!

  8. #8
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Seems the Dwarven toughness part isnt working. i tried clicking it so many times and i had the feat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post
    Seems the Dwarven toughness part isnt working. i tried clicking it so many times and i had the feat.
    Didn't work for me either.

    Anyway, I'm watching tv now, but if people still need screenshots after and hour or so, I'll try to upload some.

  10. #10
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    Ok here's some highlights.

    You can either specialize in axes or hammers/picks. You can also use your con for damage when using those weapons.

    http://i.imgur.com/jwwWxvB.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/ec1XMs5.jpg

    S&B tanky stuff:

    http://i.imgur.com/HWDzsn8.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/1Prmb7M.jpg

    Dragonmarks get better. Lesser and greater marks are now enhancements.

    http://i.imgur.com/LdE50YS.jpg

    Potion buff:

    http://i.imgur.com/3ALTIt7.jpg

  11. #11
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    Ok here's some highlights.

    You can either specialize in axes or hammers/picks. You can also use your con for damage when using those weapons.

    http://i.imgur.com/jwwWxvB.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/ec1XMs5.jpg

    S&B tanky stuff:

    http://i.imgur.com/HWDzsn8.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/1Prmb7M.jpg

    Dragonmarks get better. Lesser and greater marks are now enhancements.

    http://i.imgur.com/LdE50YS.jpg

    Potion buff:

    http://i.imgur.com/3ALTIt7.jpg
    +1, thanks!
    Was chomping at the bit to get some SS's. Much appreciated.
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  12. #12
    The Hatchery Nibor's Avatar
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    Dwarf:

    Core:
    Dwarven Toughness (autogrant): You gain 10 HP
    Dwarven Consitution (2ap): +1 Con
    Dwarven Toughness (1ap, min AP in tree currently bugged to be at least 30): 10 HP
    Dwarven Constitution (2ap): +1 Con
    Dwarven Toughness (? - seems bugged, it autogranted): 10 HP

    Tier 1:
    Kundarak Dragonmark Focus (?): +1/2/3 use, +1/2/3 search
    Iron Stomach (1ap): +1/+2/+3 CL of potions you drink
    Stout (1ap): +1/+2/+3 Balance and Saves vs Poison
    Dwarven Weapon Training (2ap, choose one):
    Axe Training: +1 to-hit and damage with battle axes, dwarven waraxes, hand axes, greataxes, and throwing axes
    Pick and Hammer training: +1 to-hit and damage with heavy picks, light hammer, light picks, mauls, throwing hammers, and warhammers
    Dwarven Armor Mastery (1ap): +1/+2/+3 AC and Armor Max Dex bonus

    Tier 2:
    Lesser Dragonmark of Warding (2AP, Req dragonmark focus rank 1): Grants lesser dragonmark, Spell Resistance
    Dwarven Tactics (2ap): +1/+2/+3 to DC of your combat feats
    Child of the Mountain (2ap): +2%/3%/4% to maximum health, +1/+2/+3 to Fort saves, -1/-2/-3 to Reflex saves
    Dwarven Weapon Training (2ap, req Tier 1 of same type):
    Axe Training: +1 to hit and damage with battle axes, dwarven waraxes, hand axes, and throwing axes. +1 to hit and +2 damage with greataxes.
    Pick and Hammer training: +1 to hit and damage with heavy picks, light hammer, light picks, mauls*, throwing hammers, and warhammers. +1 to hit and +2 damage with mauls (I think mauls inclusion in the +1 damage line is a typo)
    Dwarven Shield Mastery (2ap): 5%/10%/15% Shield AC and +1/+2/+3 Tower Shield max dex bonus

    Tier 3:
    Greater Dragonmark of Warding (2ap, req Lesser dragonmark): Grants Greater Dragonmark, Radiant Forcefield
    Dwarven Runes (2ap): +1/+2/+3 to saves vs spell effects
    Stand Like STone (2ap, requires Child of the Mountain): Action Boost: For 12/15/20 seconds you gain +10/+20/+30 Balance, PRR, and stacking Energy Resistance, but have a 50% penalty to movement speed, sink in water, and cannot fly.
    Dwarven Weapon Training (2ap, requires Tier 2 of same type):
    Axe Training: +1 to hit and damage with (all axes)
    Pick and Hammer Training: +1 to hit and damage with (all picks/hammers)

    Tier 4:
    Hands of Stone (?ap, req Greater Dragonmark): Greater Dragonmark Spell: Earthgrab, reflex DC 10+level+con modifier
    Dwarf Fortress (1ap, req Stand Like Stone): While wearing full plate and using a shield, you gain +1/+2/+3 AC, Intim, and will saving throws vs Fear, and deal 3%/5%/7% additional weapon damage.
    Dwarven Weapon Training (2ap, req Tier 3 of same type):
    Axe Training: +1 to hit and damage with battle axes, dwarven waraxes, hand axes, and throwing axes. +1 to hit and +2 damage with greataxes.
    Pick and Hammer training: +1 to hit and damage with heavy picks, light hammer, light picks, mauls*, throwing hammers, and warhammers. +1 to hit and +2 damage with mauls (I think mauls inclusion in the +1 damage line is a typo)
    Throw your weight around (2ap, req Tier 4 of same type Dwarven Weapon Training):
    Axe: Use Con modifier for damage with (all axes)
    pick and hammer: Use Con modifier for damage with (all picks/hammers)

  13. #13
    The Hatchery Nibor's Avatar
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    I'm going to assume the Core abilities are bugged and should be 2ap each for the dwarven Toughness.

    The +AC for dwarven fortress seems horribly low. That's a lot of AP to get there, and by then you're in Full Plate and somehow +1-2-3 AC is supposed to interest you? Not sure I buy it. You'll take it for the Intim and/or the weapon damage, but the AC seems like just clutter - either remove it, or make it meaningful.

  14. #14
    The Hatchery Nibor's Avatar
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    Dwarven Con-based barb sounds interesting, but probably the AP won't add up; likely the Barb class trees will be too important, and/or you'd rather just be Half-orc.

    My caster druid is kind of randomly a dwarf; the HP will be nice, and it occurred to me the potion ML increase will likely be welcome on SP pots.

  15. #15
    Community Member FuzzyDuck81's Avatar
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    crikey, the dwarf dragonmarks could actually be worth taking!
    I don't mean to come across as unsympathetic - but I am, so I do.

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    Stand with stone making you sink in water is very interesting

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    Initial feedback, based on a level 7 vet character creation scenario:

    * Dwarven Toughness also not working for me, Toughness feat was chosen.

    * Iron Stomach is a nice flavor enhancement consistent with Dwarven archetype.

    * Do not like that I cannot select to increase hit/damage in both lines of axes and picks/hammers. Ruins the archetype of a dual axe/hammer wielder and doesn't seem to be an issue with overpowering, but a deficiency in the user interface - it is too limiting with only a 5x4 matrix of enhancements, since you simply don't have room for displaying both lines!

    * Do not like that I cannot select the spell defense enhancements (Dwarven Runes) until the 3rd tier and this is another general indictment of the tiered/gated design. You can already limit choices by demanding prerequisite enhancements exactly as you do with the Armor Mastery and Shield Mastery enhancements. If you eliminated the "AP spent" requirement then I'd be able to do something I do now - select spell defense early - but still be unable to select, for example, Throw Your Weight Around because that sits at the end of a long line of prereqs. In other words, more flexibility without being overpowered, and less complicated too.

    * Child of the Mountain is weak. Fortitude would already be a strong aspect of dwarves so it's really a trade between HP and reflex. Spending 6 AP for 4% max HP amounts to only 20 HP for a 500 HP character. Would like to see this changed to a toggle enhancement that can be used strategically/situationally and left as is, or if it's a permanent enhancement, then boost the HP gain to at least 2% per rank for a max of 6%, still pretty modest IMO for the -3 reflex you have to give up.

    * Dwarven Armor Mastery is weak. You add the PRR mechanic then provide no way for the archetypical defense race to gain any other than a 20 second action boost that renders you 50% slower? Movement penalty are un-fun and +1 AC is so weak now... consider buffing this enhancement with an additional +2 PRR per rank.

    * Like that Dwarven Tactics provides a potential +3 DC for 6 AP instead of 10 AP like before. This is a good change.

    * Throw Your Weight Around is creative and intriguing, but only costs 1 AP while the four step prereq line to get there each requires 2 AP. Make it cost 2 AP as well.

  18. #18
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Just going to comment on alternative ability score use on weapon enhancement here...

    These are interesting ideas, but make little sense to put at the top of tree lines.

    Basically these are build archetype abilities. These types of abilities should be quickly acquired on builds. It is NOT FUN to play a gimped build until you get the ability which makes the build viable.

    The buy in cost of class level/racial choice should be sufficient for these types of abilities without the added lets require people to fritter away tons of AP and have a lame build until they get there abilities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    The buy in cost of class level/racial choice should be sufficient for these types of abilities without the added lets require people to fritter away tons of AP and have a lame build until they get there abilities.
    Absolutely agreed. It's one thing to maybe say...at the top tier, you can add 1/2 your Con bonus to damage (in addition to Str) or something like that...it's a bonus, a building up...but if you're doing a complete swap on ability scores, it's no fun to NOT play the character you want for so long.

  20. #20
    The Hatchery Nibor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    Just going to comment on alternative ability score use on weapon enhancement here...

    These are interesting ideas, but make little sense to put at the top of tree lines.

    Basically these are build archetype abilities. These types of abilities should be quickly acquired on builds. It is NOT FUN to play a gimped build until you get the ability which makes the build viable.

    The buy in cost of class level/racial choice should be sufficient for these types of abilities without the added lets require people to fritter away tons of AP and have a lame build until they get there abilities.
    Absolutely agree, and this was a lesson learned during Beta for EDs and MotU - Shadowdancer had "Dex for damage" in it, and it was ripped out, because putting that as an Epic Destiny meant running a character up past lvl 20 before you could usefully use it.

    Tempest tree can get Improved Weapon Finesse much earlier, for example, and that's much better - I'm willing to have a poor damage stat for the first couple of levels (2-4 or so), but not more than that.

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