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  1. #21
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    The problem is that D&D was never designed to be a one-dimensional video game - it was a game designed to use both theater of the mind, and interpersonal dynamics. Power-creep was kept in check by the depth of the game.

    However, you can't program in a deep immersion experience to an MMO because there isn't enough computing horsepower or bandwidth available to pull that off. So what fills the void is grinding, gear, and aspirations of uberness.

    I agree with Teh_Troll that power-creep is bad. And wholeheartedly disagree that the game stagnates without newer, better gear every release. It seems to me that people were more happy, and DDO was in a growth mode when the cap was 20, and epic gear was difficult to get. it has almost bred player burn-out.

    The simplest way to prevent stagnation is to provide more content and more diversity. But that would mean giving up on what appears to be a large group of MMO players: the mindless grindhounds. And it appears this is the group that dominates. And if they are going to dominate, then Turbine is going to react by giving them more stuff to grind for.

    The situation is what it is. Taking a road less traveled often means walking it alone. That doesn't square well if you're looking to make a profit.

    I personally prefer powerful stuff to be more rare, and the game needing a healthy PUG environment to be successful. But I appear to me in the minority.

  2. #22
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post

    I agree with Teh_Troll . . .
    There is hope for you yet grasshopper.

  3. #23
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    What they can do and should do is when power-creep creates an issue don't fix it with more power-creep. U16-U17 had a saves jump to the point where DC caster just became meh. The right way to address this would have been to lower the mob saves.
    Whereupon the "EE is too easy!" threads start springing up like dandelions, so Turbine bloats the mobs again; until the "EE is too hard!" or "you broke d20!" threads outnumber the former, so Turbine nerfs the mobs again . . . and the circle goes on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The game's not challenging now when you bring toons that don't rely on DCs. Seriously, I'm sure you've done EEs with groups full of fury-shotters and Shiradi-casters.

    Tell me there's actually ANY challenge in those setups?
    Well, there was probably some challenge in working out those builds and grinding out the gear & EDs for them...

    But this dovetails with my pet peeve, namely the EDs are poorly balanced, resulting a handful of Z0MG! overpowered builds like the ones you name, and "everybody else," which are gimps by comparison.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The range of viable DCs isn’t anywhere near as large what we had with AC. The different between a maxed out DC caster and somebody just trying with ghetto gear is about 4 DC. Fits easily on a D20.
    I think you're underestimating the disparity between a truly maxed-out caster and a "ghetto" caster. And I don't think power creep is the issue; it's power disparity. That may sound like mere semantics, but my point is if everyone could creep up the power curve equally, then it doesn't matter if Turbine inflates the mobs proportionally; everyone exists within the same playing field. But instead, there's a very big power disparity between a first-life caster with **** gear and a serial TRer who's really ground out their PLs, gear, etc. And Turbine somehow has to balance DDO to keep things fun for the players at both extremes and everyone in between. Oh, and then they introduced EDs, which let the truly OCD add even more power to the builds. And now we've got a redone Enhancement system, with its own set of buffs & nerfs we'll have to work out! I'm sure it won't break game balance worse!

    Now, if your point is Turbine should narrow that disparity so they stop "breaking" the d20 system, I'm actually cool with that. But imagine the "nerf!" lamentations of all those minmaxers who wake up one day and find out they're not that much more powerful than the newbs anymore...

  4. #24
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Whereupon the "EE is too easy!" threads start springing up like dandelions, so Turbine bloats the mobs again; until the "EE is too hard!" or "you broke d20!" threads outnumber the former, so Turbine nerfs the mobs again . . . and the circle goes on.
    I’ll stick with “EE is too stupid” as I while I don’t have difficulty beating any quest I find what works best in them to be an insult to the intelligence of any gamer.

    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Well, there was probably some challenge in working out those builds and grinding out the gear & EDs for them...
    Yes . . . so it’s okay that THEIR grind is validated but a DC-caster’s remains useless? I’m sorry but that is just plain dumb.

    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    But this dovetails with my pet peeve, namely the EDs are poorly balanced, resulting a handful of Z0MG! overpowered builds like the ones you name, and "everybody else," which are gimps by comparison.
    And this is bad for the game. FEWER viable builds is bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    I think you're underestimating the disparity between a truly maxed-out caster and a "ghetto" caster. . . ...
    Besides Litany and a +5 INT tome what isn’t purchasable on the AH? NOTHING.

    So that’s one DC the maxed guy can get over the ghetto guy. Add in another for completionist.

    I’m sorry, the range between a maxed caster and somebody who’s just trying isn’t that big.

    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Now, if your point is Turbine should narrow that disparity so they stop "breaking" the d20 system, I'm actually cool with that. But imagine the "nerf!" lamentations of all those minmaxers who wake up one day and find out they're not that much more powerful than the newbs anymore...
    We mention AC . . . all Turbine had to do to "fix" that was remove stacking dodge bonuses and add in the new types of armor. Now we have a system where people can get insanely high AC scores that don't do anything in hard content anyway.

    it was a stupid change.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    I think you're underestimating the disparity between a truly maxed-out caster and a "ghetto" caster.
    It's still much, much, much smaller than the disparity was between an AC tank and a "ghetto" melee pre-MotU. That was a difference of 50+, which doesn't fit a d20 at all.

    I'd say the difference between the first lifer getting up and running and a completionist is probably more like 10-12 DC, tops. (No yugo, no ship buffs, crappy +2 tome, only a +2 DC item, etc...) Perfectly reasonable for a d20 system.

  6. #26
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    No.

    D20 breaks down as mobs get stronger.

    These caves have been sealed for untold ages...

    Ancient powers, terrified of what lurks beyond must have cast powerful magic to keep some insidious fiend at bay...

    Whoever dares open the portal must be prepared, for they know not what horrors will be released...

    What could be this dark secret that lies beyond, dormant for centuries...

    Why... it's Mountain Lions! Epic Mountain Lions at that!

  7. #27
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    It's still much, much, much smaller than the disparity was between an AC tank and a "ghetto" melee pre-MotU. That was a difference of 50+, which doesn't fit a d20 at all.

    I'd say the difference between the first lifer getting up and running and a completionist is probably more like 10-12 DC, tops. (No yugo, no ship buffs, crappy +2 tome, only a +2 DC item, etc...) Perfectly reasonable for a d20 system.
    It's not that much. It's 4-5 DC max between a maxed caster and somebody who is at least trying for DCs.

    I'm sorry, getting yugo pots is not a problem for any 25. That's worse than the melees who are too lazy to get SF pots. 4 level 19 quests on elite and done, you don't even need to do the raid.

    +2 guild buff anyone can get at this point.

    +2 DC item is 1 less than a +3.

    +2-3 INT from a weaker tome is 1-2 DC.

    +8 INT random junk and a +3 Insightful from non-raid loot. Come on, you can trade for it. The only INT/WIS boosting gear that's a pain to get is Litany. The rest is not.

  8. #28
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Wrong.

    Power creep and insane stat/CR inflation is what's not good for an MMO.

    the D20 was design by way better game designers than these guys.
    And was still broke as all get out by level 10 or so.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #29
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    And was still broke as all get out by level 10 or so.
    Nonsense.

  10. #30
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You are wrong.

    Power creep is bad, end of discussion.

    The insane number inflation is the issue, not the D20 system. Every non-D&D system Turbine has come up with has made the game worse. These guys just aren't as good at their jobs as the guys who did D&D, every system they've created is inferior.

    I'm sorry, 75 INT is ********. CR 73 trash mobs is ********. Monks getting insta-kill DCs 10-15 above maxed PMs is ********.

    This is the problem, not the D20.
    The system becomes broken due to the combination of the d20 (too restrictive of a value set) AND power creep (values that can be built for are too high in relation to the variable, which is the d20) - not simply one or the other.

    Power creep is a discussion of degree and not an absolute claim that can be made that all of it is bad. Do you think anyone would play this game is we were all still using regular level 10 SOS and +5 mithril full plate was the best armor in the game? Power creep is needed, but too much of it is bad.

    Too much power creep can lead to imbalance when the difference between how much more powerful the mobs get =/= how much more powerful the characters get. This game has now had several eras that were examples of both sides of the equation - when players were roflstomping the hardest content - and when players couldnt even beat the hardest content (the biggest example of this is when titan came out)

    The d20 becomes broken when power creep causes builds to outgrow the d20, causing it to become a minimal variable. The higher the values on the items, the less of a percentage rolling a 1-20 becomes of those values. If peoples AC is in the 20s, a 20 sider can influence the attack value almost 100%, while if average AC is near 100, the 20 sider can only influence 20% of all values. It becomes a game of "all or nothing" where people build for no-fail, and the stuff they didnt build for is always fail. A to-hit of 80-99 is influenced by the d20. Values below 79 and above 100 are automiss and autohit respectively.

    This is just as much a fault of the d20 being too restrictive as it is of too much power creep.

    This is why I like lower level lower magic D&D campaigns the best. The d20 influences more of the values percentage wise. Raising or lowering chances is the game, not building for automatic success.
    Last edited by Chai; 08-15-2013 at 05:05 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #31
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Nonsense.
    Only the inexperienced would claim thus and blindly defend the d20 as a system that always works. I clearly demonstrated to the feedback group how quickly the d20 breaks, even in the mid level game, to the point where no fail and always fail takes over.
    Last edited by Chai; 08-15-2013 at 05:06 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #32
    Community Member count_spicoli's Avatar
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    what about spell pen on a first life dc caster? hows that looking?

    ive said it before and ill say it again if ee is too hard don't run it. Plenty of other settings. Plenty of dc casters are having no problems EE content. Don't need a nerf to the only setting that provides a challenge in this game.

  13. #33
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    There is hope for you yet grasshopper.
    I'd snatch the pebble from your hand, but I have no idea where your hands have been.



    Oh, and that doesn't look like a pebble either...

  14. #34
    Community Member ZeebaNeighba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This is where you are wrong. The range of viable DCs isn’t anywhere near as large what we had with AC. The different between a maxed out DC caster and somebody just trying with ghetto gear is about 4 DC. Fits easily on a D20.

    The problem isn’t the D20.
    Gear might be +4 DC, sure. The main problem is it's "specialize as hard as you can, and you'll sometimes land that one school..."

    Relying on heighten, max int/wis/cha and the base 10 DC is not working. You have to put a fair amount into the specific school and you can only do that for so many schools (for anyone but wizard, "so many" usually ends up meaning one).

    Right now, max int/wis/charisma is about 54-66, depending on certain things (big one is if you are willing to shell out the ED points to increase them up the right side of the tree). Which is a mod of 22-28, add 19 to that for a heightened spell and you get a DC of 41-47. Nope, not cutting it, even if you include a couple other boosts that are easy to get for alternate school spells, including +2 spell focus items, +1 Wizard PL, and certain other things depending on what school and class you have (archmage 2nd school specialist, conj/evo DC's from passive PL feats, spellsong trance, etc). It might barely hit the 50s then, and that's when it's as pimped out as it gets.

  15. #35
    Community Member Dawnsfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    No tinfoil hat needed, it's going to happen eventually if the level cap rises past 30.
    Good thing that isn't the plan then!

    Quote Originally Posted by ProducerRowan View Post
    Just to give some insight, our next raid (coming out early in 2014) will be balanced to level 30. Lots of dracoliches.

    We plan to raise the level cap to 30 at the end of 2014, and keep it there for the extended future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    I’m only nerfing you now so I can buff you later.

  16. #36
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Only the inexperienced would claim thus and blindly defend the d20 as a system that always works. I clearly demonstrated to the feedback group how quickly the d20 breaks, even in the mid level game, to the point where no fail and always fail takes over.
    Even more nonsense.

  17. #37
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeebaNeighba View Post
    Gear might be +4 DC, sure. The main problem is it's "specialize as hard as you can, and you'll sometimes land that one school..."

    Relying on heighten, max int/wis/cha and the base 10 DC is not working. You have to put a fair amount into the specific school and you can only do that for so many schools (for anyone but wizard, "so many" usually ends up meaning one).

    Right now, max int/wis/charisma is about 54-66, depending on certain things (big one is if you are willing to shell out the ED points to increase them up the right side of the tree). Which is a mod of 22-28, add 19 to that for a heightened spell and you get a DC of 41-47. Nope, not cutting it, even if you include a couple other boosts that are easy to get for alternate school spells, including +2 spell focus items, +1 Wizard PL, and certain other things depending on what school and class you have (archmage 2nd school specialist, conj/evo DC's from passive PL feats, spellsong trance, etc). It might barely hit the 50s then, and that's when it's as pimped out as it gets.
    If you're not investing all-in your caster-stat you aren't a DC caster.

  18. #38
    Community Member Feithlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    It's not that much. It's 4-5 DC max between a maxed caster and somebody who is at least trying for DCs.

    I'm sorry, getting yugo pots is not a problem for any 25. That's worse than the melees who are too lazy to get SF pots. 4 level 19 quests on elite and done, you don't even need to do the raid.

    +2 guild buff anyone can get at this point.

    +2 DC item is 1 less than a +3.

    +2-3 INT from a weaker tome is 1-2 DC.

    +8 INT random junk and a +3 Insightful from non-raid loot. Come on, you can trade for it. The only INT/WIS boosting gear that's a pain to get is Litany. The rest is not.
    Not everyone has +2 guild buffs.
    +2 Int from yugo.
    +2 Int from completionist.
    +1 from Wiz PL.

    Total: +1 guild +1 yugo +1 compl. +1 PL +1 item +2 tomes = 7 difference. Seems the middle ground wins again
    Thelanis: Nassim* (F12/P6/M2) - Talienor** (P18/Ra2) - Feithlin** (F12/Bd7/C1) - Stoneoak* (F12/M6/P2) - Hokusai (M17/F2/C1) - Ardence* (Bd15/F3/Ro2) - Matsushiro* (Ro11/M6/P3) | Argonessen: Luneargent (W18/Ro2) - Talienor (Ro20) - Takshir (Bd16/F2/Ro2) - Hiacynthe (C20) | Ghallanda: A bunch of pre DDO Unlimited characters (field of testing for post U19 )

  19. #39
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feithlin View Post
    Not everyone has +2 guild buffs.
    +2 Int from yugo.
    +1 from Wiz PL.
    Anyone who gives a hoot about their characters effectiveness will have all of this. If they don't they are lazy and should stay on Korthos.

  20. #40
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    d20 is a crude method used to assign probability within the limits imposed by the format of PnP.

    The way AC is calculated currently in DDO is both more logical and gives better outcomes. It allows most characters to get some benefit from AC, without letting people who completely max it out become effectively invulnerable.

    PnP can use d20 successfully because the base values are generally low enough for d20 to be a meaningful portion of the final result. PnP needs to use d20 because its not reasonable to to expect players to do the calculations needed in DDOs AC system by hand.

    For DDO those factors are reversed. DDO is a game that runs on a computer - enabling more precise calculations to happen rapidly without bothering the player, and stat inflation to the point where d20 just isn't a sufficient range in endgame anymore.

    d20 is a artifact from PnP that isn't needed or desirable in a MMORPG. Time to put it down.
    Last edited by Nadion; 08-15-2013 at 11:28 PM.

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