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  1. #1
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Default So DC casting is still fail at end-game?

    Getting about 8-9 more DC . . . mobs CRs going up by 15.

    Still looking like a waste of time to build for anything except no-save ED abilities?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Getting about 8-9 more DC . . . mobs CRs going up by 15.

    Still looking like a waste of time to build for anything except no-save ED abilities?
    No. There are plenty of no-save heroic abilities/spells too

  3. #3
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Getting about 8-9 more DC . . . mobs CRs going up by 15.

    Still looking like a waste of time to build for anything except no-save ED abilities?
    I don't know. I mean, I'm certainly not going to go out and try it myself, but with (Quickened) Enervation as a 10 Spell Point SLA now, maybe with the static increases plus the bonus -2 to -8 from neg levels, single target insta-killing could be a thing?

    EDIT: The SLA and spell also don't share cooldowns at all anymore, so you could spam one after the other, though SP costs obvs.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    I don't know. I mean, I'm certainly not going to go out and try it myself, but with (Quickened) Enervation as a 10 Spell Point SLA now, maybe with the static increases plus the bonus -2 to -8 from neg levels, single target insta-killing could be a thing?

    EDIT: The SLA and spell also don't share cooldowns at all anymore, so you could spam one after the other, though SP costs obvs.
    Have you tested this in the new stuff or are you guessing?

    When it starts getting more than 100 SP/kill I leave the maxed-PM parked and bring the fury-shotter.

    In a way being gimped is kinda cool, saves me the trouble of having to TR into a drow and get completionist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Getting about 8-9 more DC . . . mobs CRs going up by 15.

    Still looking like a waste of time to build for anything except no-save ED abilities?
    its lookin like that is accurate. dc casters spamming death is a thing of the past.

    its an interesting combination too. no more insta kills for necros. but to make up for it, we have been given a pet that is completely useless and immune to negative energy so no way to heal it.

    oh and the pm SLA's are still unaffected by meta's and their cooldowns were increased and have a save attached to them now so they are even more useless now than ever.

    but dont worry. pm's will still do considerably less damage than an AM so we will have that to look forward to as well.

  6. #6
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Totally guessing; didn't mean to give the impression I had a clue. The CR 73 giants I hear about could easily have fort saves in the 90s for all I know.

    Also, because I haven't seen one on the forums yet, here's max int after U19:

    20 Drow Base
    7 Level-Ups
    11 Item
    1 Exceptional
    3 Insightful
    2 Completionist
    5 Tome
    2 Race Enh
    2 Archmage Enh
    2 Pale Master Enh
    2 Either Wizard Capstone
    4 Augmented Lich Form
    2 Ship Buff
    1 Profane
    2 Yugo Pot
    6 Destiny
    1 Twist (Echoes: Magister)
    1 Twist (Int +1)
    1 GA: Int
    = 75 for a Mod of 32

    If you don't care about spell pen OR are actually running in Magister

    1 GA: Int (another one instead of Epic Spell Penetration) OR 1 Twist (Int +1) (instead of Necromancy focus +3 from Magister)

    = 76 for a Mod of 33 <-- Max realistic, sustained Intelligence on a totally maxxed Drow Wizard.

    For True Max Super-Temporary Int
    1 GA: Int (for a third time, instead of Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy)
    1 Twist (Int +1) <-- this is the twist mentioned above; it's not doubling up, assume that they took GA: Int in the "OR".
    2 Store Pot
    4 Abashai Cookies <-- if this is wrong and doesn't stack with Litany let me know. I'm happy to buy the anecdotal evidence that it does in the absence of someone who has actually tried it objecting.
    3 House D Pot
    2 Inspire Excellence
    10 Happy Queeny <-- Literally only possible in town by rapidly changing from Shiradi to an int based destiny. Purely screenshot fodder, not actually doable in a quest.
    = 99 for a Mod of 44


    Max Sustainable Necro DC:
    10 Base
    9 Level
    33 Int
    4 Feats (Spell Focii + PL:Wizard)
    3 ED (Spell Focus: Necromancy)
    5 Item
    1 Lich
    1 Archmage
    1 Tier 5 Pale Master
    2 Spell Mastery Item (EDIT: Credit to Sir Valentine!)

    = 68

    Just looks a little sad. And that's in Magister. And I have strong negative feelings about Magister.
    Last edited by Deathdefy; 08-17-2013 at 07:46 PM. Reason: Forgot Joy of the Queen, Abashai Cookies do fully stack with Litany, added House D Pots. Added Joy of the Queen disclaimer.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    Just looks a little sad. And that's in Magister. And I have strong negative feelings about Magister.
    Magister? Who the heck would be anything but Shiradi.

    I just don't get it, giving MASSIVE DC inflation to still have a broken end-game is just idiotic.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcedes View Post
    but dont worry. pm's will still do considerably less damage than an AM so we will have that to look forward to as well.
    Only if you can't get past thinking of it as an either/or choice.

  9. #9
    The Hatchery Syllph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    For True Max Super-Temporary Int
    1 GA: Int (for a third time, instead of Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy)
    1 Twist (Int +1) <-- this is the twist mentioned above; it's not doubling up, assume that they took GA: Int in the "OR".
    2 Store Pot
    3 Abashai Cookies <-- don't stack with Litany's +1 Profane is my understanding
    10 Happy Queeny
    = 93 for a Mod of 41
    .
    Nice post Though, I don't think you can factor the +10 for joy of the queen in. There would be no way to have joy running while having all the other buffs. You can't twist joy, so you'd need to be in Shiradi and then you wouldn't have the Magister/Draconic INT bonuses. It would be - 6 from destiny, so 87 total I believe.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    3 Abashai Cookies <-- don't stack with Litany's +1 Profane is my understanding
    Last I'd heard from someone who tried it, they do indeed stack fully, even though it's claimed that both are Profane. Have you tested it? I admit I haven't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    Max Sustainable Necro DC:
    <snip>
    = 66
    My FvS Evo DC is going to be about the same, though I'm not quite maxed. Not going to do a full breakdown, but I think 69ish is possible, with a stack of Sorc PLs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    Just looks a little sad. And that's in Magister. And I have strong negative feelings about Magister.
    Yes, sad. Moved us forward past the old target, but yanked the target even further out in front of us. Well, DC casting will work well in the level 24 quests, now, anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I just don't get it, giving MASSIVE DC inflation to still have a broken end-game is just idiotic.
    Yeah, that.

  12. #12
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Well, DC casting will work well in the level 24 quests, now, anyway.
    That and a bucket of dirt is worth a bucket.

    The level 24 quest's gear isn't worth farming anymore.

  13. #13
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    Ack, that's sad to hear. I thought the one sliver lining of the massive stat increases on gear was going to be better DC casting, but I guess that's not to be.

    I'm also worried about my one toon that can manage a good DC spell in EE: earthquake on my druid. 52-54 DC +4 debuff (mantle of the icy soul) worked pretty well in Gianthold due to the comparatively low reflex saves (and the fact that 80% or so success feels less wasteful on a persistent AoE than on a single target one and done spell like FoD). But in shadowfell I get the feeling there's going to be a lot of high reflex mobs

    New Instakill PM:
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    DC 70+ instakills!
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  14. #14
    Community Member soloist12's Avatar
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    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5066189

    Completely agree. There's absolutely zero evidence the devs play their own game in anything above epic hard, or they'd notice. If you intend to do EE in the expansion, do not roll anything DC-based, such as rogue assassin or pale master. You need to push HARD to grab 65 DC, and even then it's going to take a drain or 2, which means 100+ sp per kill. These DC's also make the control wizard useless.

    I guess you could stick to epic hard and have fun with your choice class and play style if you settled for mediocrity, and decided to buy your epic elite items instead of farming them yourself, as well as waving any desire to accomplish epic elite aside from piking half the quest.

    I'm really curious what the devs are leveraging the monster DCs against for balance purposes. Is there an ability out there i'm unaware of that if DCs stay too low, it will win the quest nearly instantly? Red named bosses with 50k hp are still only affected by raw dps, so why are DC-specialized classes prevented from being effective* when they trade off damage to do so?

    *When I say effective, I don't mean 2 energy drains to accomplish a cc or kill. There is no aoe energy drain to make your disco ball or hold function in EE, so the non-shiradi wizard will be reduced to a 50ish sp per mob irresistible dance rotation and haste/rage.

    So scrap your completionist/maxed caster PL DC wizard and re-roll a shiradi. On second thought, park the completionist wizard and roll a first life shiradi sorc and be just as effective.

    \o/

  15. #15
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Saves don't scale up the same as CR. There's no set formula, it's just whatever turbine decides. So the only way to know is to just test it out and see.

  16. #16
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Saves don't scale up the same as CR. There's no set formula, it's just whatever turbine decides. So the only way to know is to just test it out and see.
    We know.

    That just makes it worse. It's like they are forcing people to go Shiradi. Dropping saves by 5 would benefit so much everyone that I don't understand why it hasn't been done yet.
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  17. #17
    Community Member soloist12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Saves don't scale up the same as CR. There's no set formula, it's just whatever turbine decides. So the only way to know is to just test it out and see.
    Which is retarded, because it's the dnd style saves in the heroic range. You have melee mobs with low will, casters with low fort, ranged mobs with high reflex, etc.

    But then you hit motu ee and none of it makes sense. Melee mobs saving vs. 55 dc will spells, casters saving vs. 57 fod, etc.

  18. #18
    The Hatchery Syllph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soloist12 View Post
    Which is retarded, because it's the dnd style saves in the heroic range. You have melee mobs with low will, casters with low fort, ranged mobs with high reflex, etc.

    But then you hit motu ee and none of it makes sense. Melee mobs saving vs. 55 dc will spells, casters saving vs. 57 fod, etc.
    The problem, to my mind, seems two-fold. In epics' first incarnation we had blanket immunities. Casters couldn't do -anything- but haste/hold. Then they chucked blanket immunities and casters were the only ones needed in epics. Melees couldn't do -anything- but be hasted.

    So Turbine decided to throw in tough DCs. Now caster can, if speced, do something, albeit expensively; while melees can do something too - if they avoid getting 3 shotted.

    Turbine now has to decide: they could lower saves, but that would go back to making casters pretty Godly (I pretty much play casters only, so I'm not trying to be melee biased here); or have mobs use more skills. This means more casters throwing deathward (Removes the simplicity of fingering everything in sight, but can be dispelled.), mobs with blurry, displacement, haste, rage, and mobs that cast spell resistance (cleric buff). Also have them have significantly lower HP, but augmented with healers that would try and keep them alive - like we have.

    The only issue is we'd still have to dispel deathward first making the sp/kill a possible issue. Not to mention a possible overhaul of mob AI which seems unlikely.

  19. #19
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syllph View Post
    The problem, to my mind, seems two-fold. In epics' first incarnation we had blanket immunities. Casters couldn't do -anything- but haste/hold. Then they chucked blanket immunities and casters were the only ones needed in epics. Melees couldn't do -anything- but be hasted.

    So Turbine decided to throw in tough DCs. Now caster can, if speced, do something, albeit expensively; while melees can do something too - if they avoid getting 3 shotted.

    Turbine now has to decide: they could lower saves, but that would go back to making casters pretty Godly (I pretty much play casters only, so I'm not trying to be melee biased here); or have mobs use more skills. This means more casters throwing deathward (Removes the simplicity of fingering everything in sight, but can be dispelled.), mobs with blurry, displacement, haste, rage, and mobs that cast spell resistance (cleric buff). Also have them have significantly lower HP, but augmented with healers that would try and keep them alive - like we have.

    The only issue is we'd still have to dispel deathward first making the sp/kill a possible issue. Not to mention a possible overhaul of mob AI which seems unlikely.
    Lowering saves by 5 will not make them Godly imho. And if 5 is too much, then by 3. But anyway, they need to START thinking about it. It's just stupid to have a whole idea of arcanes (DC based) excluded from EEs in general.
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  20. #20
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Lowering saves by 5 will not make them Godly imho. And if 5 is too much, then by 3. But anyway, they need to START thinking about it. It's just stupid to have a whole idea of arcanes (DC based) excluded from EEs in general.
    Before we go jumping to conclusions . . . has anyone actually brought a DC caster into this new stuff to test?

    Or are we still guessing?

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