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  1. #1
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Default Incredibly Synergistic Combinations

    Hello Community,

    I have a few builds I've tested that have a lot of synergy with one another, and I figured I'd share here and ask for really cool combinations that you guys have found as well. I have mostly tested quarterstaff builds, so those are the ones I'll be posting:

    12 Monk/8 Rogue
    30% Sustained attack speed in GM Wind stance, 60% with action boost.
    +8 Attack/+16 Damage on a 17-20 3x Crit weapon (QStaff)
    All sorts of nifty skills, like a mass trip
    Tons of Sneak Attack
    Shadow Fade
    Uncanny Dodge
    Can go DEX based for a lot of bonuses/trip DC bonus on sweeping strike
    Henshin Anti-Dark/Light Move/Void Punch/Access to all finishers

    12 Bard/5 Rogue/3 Barbarian
    All self buffs
    4x Crit with Quarterstaves while under 50% health (5x with Imp. Critical) (Occult)
    Barb/Bard rage synergy
    All the cool sweeping moves
    Can go DEX based (Though STR would be better for Imp. Critical)

    14 FvS/6 Monk (Drow or Halfling) (Shortswords)
    DEX to shortsword damage
    Easily integrate shuriken throwing for some lulzy shortsword+thrower builds
    Self Buffs/Aoe Damage/Huge self heals
    Grandmaster stances- large amount of doublestrike

    Trying to find weirder combinations like Monk/Arti.
    But post your ideas and have fun with this.
    Let's bounce ideas off each other and see if we can find any other cool combinations. I'll update this main post with the ideas and whoever they are credited to. Don't count out class or racial bonuses!
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelodic View Post
    Hello Community,

    I have a few builds I've tested that have a lot of synergy with one another, and I figured I'd share here and ask for really cool combinations that you guys have found as well. I have mostly tested quarterstaff builds, so those are the ones I'll be posting:

    12 Monk/8 Rogue
    30% Sustained attack speed in GM Wind stance, 60% with action boost.
    +8 Attack/+16 Damage on a 17-20 3x Crit weapon (QStaff)
    All sorts of nifty skills, like a mass trip
    Tons of Sneak Attack
    Shadow Fade
    Uncanny Dodge
    Can go DEX based for a lot of bonuses/trip DC bonus on sweeping strike
    Henshin Anti-Dark/Light Move/Void Punch/Access to all finishers

    12 Bard/5 Rogue/3 Barbarian
    All self buffs
    4x Crit with Quarterstaves while under 50% health (5x with Imp. Critical) (Occult)
    Barb/Bard rage synergy
    All the cool sweeping moves
    Can go DEX based (Though STR would be better for Imp. Critical)

    14 FvS/6 Monk (Drow or Halfling) (Shortswords)
    DEX to shortsword damage
    Easily integrate shuriken throwing for some lulzy shortsword+thrower builds
    Self Buffs/Aoe Damage/Huge self heals
    Grandmaster stances- large amount of doublestrike

    Trying to find weirder combinations like Monk/Arti.
    But post your ideas and have fun with this.
    Let's bounce ideas off each other and see if we can find any other cool combinations. I'll update this main post with the ideas and whoever they are credited to. Don't count out class or racial bonuses!
    Thanks for sharing. I have something similar in mind as well. My plan is to go 12Monk/6Rogue/2Druid. STR based with Overwhelming critical, earth stance boost, LD boost and enhancement boost. Should get 6xcrits on 19-20. *fun* Druid is for Rams, Shillelagh and nice twist that adds doublestrike.

    For my FVS I'm still between 18FVS/2MNK and 14FVS/6MNK. At the moment I'm leaning towards 18/2 variant for more spells and wings but MNK6 is very tempting as well. DEX to damage makes (non-WF) melee FvS much easier to build. Hopefully Warpriest will be good.

  3. #3
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    I'm a bit apprehensive for Warpriest/Divine Avenger. They probably didn't want to release them yet because they could be dangerously broken and overpowered, but I really would like to see them so I can plan a character around it. I may actually make a Clonk.
    ~Sarlona~ - Proud Member of The Unrepentant
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  4. #4
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Three or more ranged toons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  5. #5
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    I am thinking of some Pale Master/Frienzy Hybrid. You can use the cleave-like attacks as much as you want and the PM will heal you back, you can buff yourself, cast death aura and rage ripping all the benefits (while the rank3 cleave has the same [w] as great cleave, it has lesser cooldown (3s) and it doesn't require a feat).

    While not really synergetic an elf ninja spy sounds fun - longbow + longsword (I know you have to waste 2 feats to be centered with the longsword) with DEX to damage for both (bypassing the need for bow strength)

  6. #6
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    15wiz 5 cleric "the spellike master"
    palemaster/divine disciple with 3 points in archmage to pick up the extra chilling grasp spellike.
    i built him as a morninglord to get the +2int and the 10k hp ability, think i had like 8 points in morninglord.
    went up to tier 5 in divine disciple to get the mass inflict spellike instead of getting necrotic blast.
    total abilitys i had were necrotic touch 2 necrotic bolts (one using sp one using hp) 2 chilling grasps (one from archmage 1 from divine disciple) cant remember the name but that ability that does aoe neg damage and heals undead from the divine disciple tree, and mass inflict wounds.
    has over 140 neg spellpower at level 20 from the heal skill and enhancements no items. empower and maximise for free on all those abilitys except necrotic bolt and necrotic touch. has less sp than pure wiz but makes up for it in all the cheap cost spellikes. missing level 9 spells but gains some low level cleric buffs, and the first 3 inflicts, but tbh i never used them because of all the healing i got every 6 seconds for 7sp from the ability i cant remember the name of. was a fun build to play with and once i get on live on the 19th will be making a morninglord into this spec

  7. #7
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    8fighter/9monk/3rog, drow dex build. Drow racial enhancements give damage and attack bonuses to shortswords and rapiers. Kensei light blade enhancements gives further bonus to rapiers and shortswords as well as extra crit threat. One with blade allows a dance of flower to give 1.5W damage to rapiers and shortswords. Ninja gives more sneak dices and sting of ninja. Light monk gives 10% extra off hand attack chance. If using balizarde as main hand, rebellion as off hand, there will be 13-20X3 crit for mainhand, 13-20X2 crit for offhand, plus very high proc of ninja poison.

  8. #8
    Community Member skullzz's Avatar
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    Fighter 12/ 4 more or less anything/ 4 monk


    kensai (weapon group centering) in master stance (think can get up to grandmaster not sure) in which ever monk tree you like (ninja spy if your weapon group is pierce/ slashing, other 2 for whatever you want to do)
    Schadel TR FVS | Whathitme 2TR human stalwart tank |Whatwas TR Barbarian/Fighter--FuryoftheWild | Kpavio Monk/fighter| Whatsnyp Artificer | Skullzz all purpose Druid| Whatcast elf AM| Nobuffforu Acrobat Warchanter

  9. #9
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    My issue with the enhancement pass is that it seems geared towards EVERYBODY being a multiclass. I'm an oddball, and I like my classes pure (only time I ever multiclassed was on a 18/2 paladin fighter, simply because I needed more feats and the paladin capstone is horrible). I feel a lot of the capstones are lacking, and people will use this as their usual excuse to 'bully' and 'ridicule' people who have a pure build.

    With all of these obviously very powerful combinations, I feel it's pushing people towards multiclassing. With so much synergy with certain prestige classes (like battle engineer/rogue mechanic or henshin mystic/thief acrobat), why even bother putting in a capstone? I just find it akin to pigeon-holing people who want a certain build into only going a certain way to be 'viable'. I just feel if so many combinations are going to be overpowering and overshadow just about every other build (like the WF Juggernaut or the oh-so-exploitative monkcher), pure classes are going to be nonexistent outside of wizard, sorcerer, cleric, and favored soul.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    My issue with the enhancement pass is that it seems geared towards EVERYBODY being a multiclass. I'm an oddball, and I like my classes pure (only time I ever multiclassed was on a 18/2 paladin fighter, simply because I needed more feats and the paladin capstone is horrible). I feel a lot of the capstones are lacking, and people will use this as their usual excuse to 'bully' and 'ridicule' people who have a pure build.

    With all of these obviously very powerful combinations, I feel it's pushing people towards multiclassing. With so much synergy with certain prestige classes (like battle engineer/rogue mechanic or henshin mystic/thief acrobat), why even bother putting in a capstone? I just find it akin to pigeon-holing people who want a certain build into only going a certain way to be 'viable'. I just feel if so many combinations are going to be overpowering and overshadow just about every other build (like the WF Juggernaut or the oh-so-exploitative monkcher), pure classes are going to be nonexistent outside of wizard, sorcerer, cleric, and favored soul.
    It's pretty obvious to me that the Devs now don't care for Pure classes. As you said, with the capstones as they are, they shouldn't have even bothered creating them.

    Granted, they were created before multiclasses could only pick 3 trees. In fact, if the 3 tree rule stayed, the capstones could arguably be considered decent. Although even with the 3 tree limit, the none of the capstones would qualify as being as powerful as Evasion, a criteria that a Dev stated that they should be. However, now that multiclasses can pick up to 6 trees along with all the other bonuses for being a multiclass, the Devs didn't bother to adjust the capstones to meet the new power given to multiclasses.

    Moving most of the powerful prestige stuff out of the Core Abilities and usually needing less than 5 levels to get it combined with the weak capstones, it clearly shows that the Devs don't care for pure classes. Outside of the horrible cleric and sorc trees, the Devs haven't done anything to adjust stuff for pure classes since they unveiled the trees in pre-closed beta.

  11. #11
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    It's pretty obvious to me that the Devs now don't care for Pure classes. As you said, with the capstones as they are, they shouldn't have even bothered creating them.

    Granted, they were created before multiclasses could only pick 3 trees. In fact, if the 3 tree rule stayed, the capstones could arguably be considered decent. Although even with the 3 tree limit, the none of the capstones would qualify as being as powerful as Evasion, a criteria that a Dev stated that they should be. However, now that multiclasses can pick up to 6 trees along with all the other bonuses for being a multiclass, the Devs didn't bother to adjust the capstones to meet the new power given to multiclasses.

    Moving most of the powerful prestige stuff out of the Core Abilities and usually needing less than 5 levels to get it combined with the weak capstones, it clearly shows that the Devs don't care for pure classes. Outside of the horrible cleric and sorc trees, the Devs haven't done anything to adjust stuff for pure classes since they unveiled the trees in pre-closed beta.
    And that's the sad truth; that the developers don't care about a portion of the game that they're willing to just toss it aside.

    I always thought the capstone should be something that defines the epitome of what a class is. The current bard capstone, for example, personifies the spellsinger in a every way. The capstones need to be really, truly potent passives or abilities, almost to the point of being borderline overpowered. They need to make them worth having.

    I'll put forth the game Rift as an example: the game has 4 classes, but each class has many different trees that do different things and give an explicit, unique set of passives and skills. You can have a maximum of 61 points spent into any tree, but this leaves you with only 15 extra points to spend in up to 2 other trees (unless you split things up and 'multiclass/hybrid'). But, spending those 61 points in a single tree really gives you what that tree has to offer; in DDO terms, this would be like only being able to have high-powered spells like heal or mass heal as a full cleric, or only having a strong passive like overwhelming critical if you are pure barbarian. The capstone needs to be worth going pure, and the vast majority of them are not worth it, which saddens me.

    That the developers are ignoring this issue and focusing ONLY on multiclassing is driving me away from the game. I was excited for the enhancement pass since first hearing about it (and those that know me in-game know I've been talking about it constantly), and I pre-purchased the expansion in preparation for it so I could have new stuff to play and new stuff to run. But, the more I see what the devs are doing, the more I feel like I shouldn't have and I've wasted my money.

  12. #12
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    It's pretty obvious to me that the Devs now don't care for Pure classes. As you said, with the capstones as they are, they shouldn't have even bothered creating them.

    Granted, they were created before multiclasses could only pick 3 trees. In fact, if the 3 tree rule stayed, the capstones could arguably be considered decent. Although even with the 3 tree limit, the none of the capstones would qualify as being as powerful as Evasion, a criteria that a Dev stated that they should be. However, now that multiclasses can pick up to 6 trees along with all the other bonuses for being a multiclass, the Devs didn't bother to adjust the capstones to meet the new power given to multiclasses.

    Moving most of the powerful prestige stuff out of the Core Abilities and usually needing less than 5 levels to get it combined with the weak capstones, it clearly shows that the Devs don't care for pure classes. Outside of the horrible cleric and sorc trees, the Devs haven't done anything to adjust stuff for pure classes since they unveiled the trees in pre-closed beta.
    Withholding judgement on that one way or the other till we see how long this 'quicker to implement' enhancement tech takes them to implement racial PREs, m'self. As it stands, I can't really view it as being more than half-completed without that, which would make balancing for a small splash taken solely for enhancements premature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    Withholding judgement on that one way or the other till we see how long this 'quicker to implement' enhancement tech takes them to implement racial PREs, m'self. As it stands, I can't really view it as being more than half-completed without that, which would make balancing for a small splash taken solely for enhancements premature.
    Well, they did state that making new trees would be easier with the new system. I doubt we'll be seeing a bunch of new trees though.

    I'll point to the Paladin trees as a key example of this. When they announced that KOTC and HOTD would merge, almost everyone thought that would include allowing both Undead and Evil Outsider damage at the same time. That did not happen. Paladins still have to choose either one or the other. The new KOTC also only included one new ability, although a few other abilities were altered a bit. If KOTC and HOTD weren't merged, Paladins would have access to both Undead and Evil Outsider damage, plus maybe some more abilities besides the single one added to the tree. (And to add on top of this, Sacred Defender is practically a copy-and-paste job for Stalwart Defender.)

    If the Devs are that lazy for a single class that many (if not most) people agree is the weakest melee class, I don't expect them to do a decent job adding more trees. And the complete hands off approach to capstones since pre-closed beta by the Devs is a signal that they don't see any need to adjust these weak abilities in the least.

  14. #14
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    And that's the sad truth; that the developers don't care about a portion of the game that they're willing to just toss it aside...(blah blah blah more crying)
    Aren't there other threads specifically dedicated to hyperbole, whining, a lack of understanding of the game mechanics, and narrow, one sided, and frankly, ignorant views of what is coming? Half of the posts in this thread feel a bit out of place.

    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    When they announced that KOTC and HOTD would merge...If the Devs are that lazy for a single class (Paladin) that many (if not most) people agree is the weakest melee class...
    Paladins that were previously pure tanks will be able select DPS options that they didn't have access to before. DPS Paladins will be able to run in tank mode when they choose to, and they will all be able to get healing amp. Overall, I would say Paladins are getting stronger. I do think it would be nice if they gave the additional damage for both outsiders and undead, however. Anyway, it's sad to see the unwarranted Paladin whine-fest make its way into this thread as well. Seeing the same few relentless lobbyists finding excuses to post in threads that have little to nothing to do with their points is disappointing to say the least.

    Now, to address the actual thread topic, which few of the posters in this thread seem able to do, I'm going to say monk 18/fighter 2 for various DC's, although pure monk really isn't much different.

    Also, a 10k AA with 12 ranger/6 monk/ 2 rogue or 12 monk/6 ranger/2 rogue will have access to all sneak enhancements (if they are stacking when the update hits), which could make for some very fun sneaking and sniping.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 08-18-2013 at 09:25 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelodic View Post
    Hello Community,

    I have a few builds I've tested that have a lot of synergy with one another, and I figured I'd share here and ask for really cool combinations that you guys have found as well.

    Trying to find weirder combinations like Monk/Arti.
    But post your ideas and have fun with this.
    Let's bounce ideas off each other and see if we can find any other cool combinations. I'll update this main post with the ideas and whoever they are credited to. Don't count out class or racial bonuses!
    This isn't that wild out of bounds. Just a half-elf 12monk/6ranger/2artificer with a tweaking towards melee with handwraps. Grandmaster earth stance, high wisdom focus, combat expertise, 32 Strength buffed, 63PRR with no slotted item or Antipode, Legendary Dreadnought epic destiny. Twists- Sense Weakness, Primal Scream, Dance of Flowers. Focus in Ninja Spy and Shintao enhancements. Epic feats: Vorpal Strikes, Improved Martial Arts, Blinding Speed, Tactician. Heal scroll for about 430+ HP. A focus in more DPS related stats and feats would of course go up from here.

    Silly showoff screenshot:

    Epic Destiny: *Not* in Master blitz
    Weapon: +6 Improved Cursespewing handwraps of Stunning +10 (so Grave Wrapping neg level wouldn't kill poor kobold)
    Ring: Holy Burst
    Boosts: Stunned, 30% attack speed boost + 50% LD Combat Brute + 30% twisted Sense Weakness + 30% Ninja spy No Mercy
    Last 25% of life

    .

  16. #16
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humperdink View Post
    This isn't that wild out of bounds. Just a half-elf 12monk/6ranger/2artificer with a tweaking towards melee with handwraps. Grandmaster earth stance, high wisdom focus, combat expertise, 32 Strength buffed, 63PRR with no slotted item or Antipode, Legendary Dreadnought epic destiny. Twists- Sense Weakness, Primal Scream, Dance of Flowers. Focus in Ninja Spy and Shintao enhancements. Epic feats: Vorpal Strikes, Improved Martial Arts, Blinding Speed, Tactician. Heal scroll for about 430+ HP. A focus in more DPS related stats and feats would of course go up from here.

    Silly showoff screenshot:

    Epic Destiny: *Not* in Master blitz
    Weapon: +6 Improved Cursespewing handwraps of Stunning +10 (so Grave Wrapping neg level wouldn't kill poor kobold)
    Ring: Holy Burst
    Boosts: Stunned, 30% attack speed boost + 50% LD Combat Brute + 30% twisted Sense Weakness + 30% Ninja spy No Mercy
    Last 25% of life

    I feel as though in the current setup of things, as a melee, as long as you have 5 levels in your base class, it doesn't really matter what you take otherwise as long as you can reach full BaB one way or another so I am assuming we'll be getting plenty of 15/5 combos because the buffs are so delicious, and you can use feats to get the grandmaster stances, so anyone who is playing a class with access to a monk will probably be playing with those stances.

    I may even give 14/6 Arti/Monk a shot again, who knows.

    EDIT: Gave it a try. Feats are really hard to fit in, but Lamannia is closed now.
    Oh well, I may try it on live.
    Last edited by Maelodic; 08-19-2013 at 10:03 AM.
    ~Sarlona~ - Proud Member of The Unrepentant
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    My issue with the enhancement pass is that it seems geared towards EVERYBODY being a multiclass. I'm an oddball, and I like my classes pure (only time I ever multiclassed was on a 18/2 paladin fighter, simply because I needed more feats and the paladin capstone is horrible). I feel a lot of the capstones are lacking, and people will use this as their usual excuse to 'bully' and 'ridicule' people who have a pure build.

    With all of these obviously very powerful combinations, I feel it's pushing people towards multiclassing. With so much synergy with certain prestige classes (like battle engineer/rogue mechanic or henshin mystic/thief acrobat), why even bother putting in a capstone? I just find it akin to pigeon-holing people who want a certain build into only going a certain way to be 'viable'. I just feel if so many combinations are going to be overpowering and overshadow just about every other build (like the WF Juggernaut or the oh-so-exploitative monkcher), pure classes are going to be nonexistent outside of wizard, sorcerer, cleric, and favored soul.
    After the enhancement change, I went pure class fighter (tier 5 dwarf kensei), now at L22. The L20 capstone for fighter is quite nice actually. As for being "bullied and ridiculed", it's hard for others to do so when they are 3 and 4 levels higher than me and I still have a higher kill count. ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    My issue with the enhancement pass is that it seems geared towards EVERYBODY being a multiclass. I'm an oddball, and I like my classes pure (only time I ever multiclassed was on a 18/2 paladin fighter, simply because I needed more feats and the paladin capstone is horrible). I feel a lot of the capstones are lacking, and people will use this as their usual excuse to 'bully' and 'ridicule' people who have a pure build.
    That actually comes from 3.5 itself, where after PrCs were implemented, staying pure was no longer smart from a powerplay perspective. If you go see the 3.5 minmax boards, you will see them filled with characters like 1 Fighter / 3 Wizard / Spellsword 5 / Disciple of The Spellblade 3 / Spellthief 3 / Rogue 2 / Assasin 1 / Arcane Trickster 2. Example is pretty extreme, but that is just how it is. DDO at least tries to reward for staying pure and the other extreme is that which is present in the new Pathfinder rules, where no one really multiclasses and they have to implement new base classes for all the old multiclass (and PRC) combinations, such as Magus (Fighter/wizard/EK)

    That aside, has anyone tried the something like Paladin 2 / Monk 2 / FvS 1 / Sorc 15 EK with the new enhancement passes? Mad saves, Evasion, Decent spellcasting (buffs, some saveless damage too), Divine Power and pewpew?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuinainenKoski View Post
    That actually comes from 3.5 itself, where after PrCs were implemented, staying pure was no longer smart from a powerplay perspective. If you go see the 3.5 minmax boards, you will see them filled with characters like 1 Fighter / 3 Wizard / Spellsword 5 / Disciple of The Spellblade 3 / Spellthief 3 / Rogue 2 / Assasin 1 / Arcane Trickster 2. Example is pretty extreme, but that is just how it is. DDO at least tries to reward for staying pure and the other extreme is that which is present in the new Pathfinder rules, where no one really multiclasses and they have to implement new base classes for all the old multiclass (and PRC) combinations, such as Magus (Fighter/wizard/EK)

    That aside, has anyone tried the something like Paladin 2 / Monk 2 / FvS 1 / Sorc 15 EK with the new enhancement passes? Mad saves, Evasion, Decent spellcasting (buffs, some saveless damage too), Divine Power and pewpew?
    Wizard 20 or Cleric 20 are perfectly viable builds in tabletop. The power of Wizard 20 or Cleric 20 isn't based on their PrCs, but rather on their spells. Likewise, Bard 20 is also pretty viable, with some feats. I mean, there's one build in the main boards of Wizards of the Coast that makes a great build using Paladin 20, a class that you rarely take to 20th level on both tabletop AND, apparently, on DDO (see: A-Game Paladin). You could have given well-known examples of multiple PrC combinations instead of something that violates one or two "commandments of Practical Optimization" (particularly the "thou shalt not sacrifice caster levels" one, the very first one) as an example: ones such as Sacrilegious Fist (Monk 2/Duskblade 3/Ur-Priest 2/Sacred Fist 10/Enlightened Fist 3; this is basically a Clonk with full Cleric spellcasting, the ability to persist buffs, a great deal of damage potential as a Monk plus its Wis to AC, and even some arcane spells to add to your physical attacks), the Sorcadin (Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8; a character with near-full Sorcerer spellcasting, full BAB, Charisma to saves and very strong defenses), and others. You might notice that most of the builds rarely exceed 3-4 options, because it's very, very hard to qualify for all of those classes and PrCs without diluting the power of your build).

    The Enhancement Pass in DDO has shifted things a bit, a far cry from the original statement of "the Enhancement Pass will kill multiclassing!" (now it's "the Enhancement Pass is killing pure builds!"), but pure builds are still viable. The Enhancement Pass hasn't made all multiclass combinations viable; you still need moderate knowledge on how to optimize things to work builds out. Sure, it killed some multiclass options, but made way for others, considering all the new other tree options. You still need to find out all the things that "click" to make a good build.

    Speaking about Paladins: if there's a class that *desperately* needs a revision, it's between them and Fighters. Right now, they're one of the few classes (aside from Artificer, Bard and Druid) that only have two trees (the Paladin had one tree that got combined into two, but the Fighter had its eventual 3rd tree turned into an Iconic!), but they're the least viable to remain pure; Paladins get most of their useful class features early, and Fighters...only get bonus feats, and nothing else. Saying that the comments are "unwarranted" is stretching it a bit, no? Considering that they'd still make for great combinations even if they're improved later on.

    And as for the Pal 2/Monk 2/FvS 1/Sorc 15...I'd say Pal 2/Sorc 18 could make for an interesting combination. Adding Monk just forces high Wisdom, which will compete with the naturally high Charisma required for the Sorcerer, and the good Strength and Constitution to be a proper "gish". The DDO version of the Sorcadin could easily draw from EK and either Sacred Defender (if you want to be a tank) or KotC (if you want to be good offensively). Adding more classes just dilutes the power of the build. Even Pal 4/Sorc 16 could work well, even if you lose 9th level Sorcerer spells (you get more BAB and Turn Undead from it, though).

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