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  1. #1
    Community Member realism's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Thoughts on why a forced enhancement pass

    Many here seem to have mixed feelings about he oncoming enhancement pass. Some good, some bad, but one question remains is with the amount of player base showering the forums with negative feedback, why would Turbine/WB push something that seems unwanted?

    I have given this some thought and applied some logic reasoning and good marketing sense and these are a few thoughts that I have come up with on the topic.

    1. Makes the UI much more user friendly.
    Yes it does make it easier to see what is available and probably uses much less coding that the current system. Making it easier to implement changes as needed. *Note Im not a coder or developer, so I could be wrong here.

    2. Matches the physical aspect of other MMO games. DDO is unique in the current system and new players could have a harder time adjusting. This could lead to a new F2P player deciding not to continue and become VIP or purchase items, points, etc.

    3. Along with the above it makes it much more noob friendly. Lets face it, D&D whether pen and paper or current DDO requires a good amount of planning, learning the system and at minimum a decent IQ to sort it all together and come up with a good viable build on many levels. This is were games like WoW or other such similar MMO's differ. They require very little planning and not a huge amount of knowledge to make a character happen. As above with 2, this allows new players to feel more at home with the style and may prevent them from getting flustered and quitting before investing an amount of cash back into the game. Kind of a way to increase profits by capitalizing on the simple concept.

    Maybe more coming at a later date, but for now those are the top 3 thoughts on the forced enhancement pass.
    Ultimately DDO has been showing its aging graphics for some time now and in order to maintain a steady pace of growth they must adapt for the larger population of gamers, even if that means losing some old time vets and VIP's.

  2. #2
    Community Member nikos1313's Avatar
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    there was gona be a major change in DDO eventually.

    i cant see why ppl just cant live with it, even after all this time that we know about this pass. i havent read all those posts but i have a general idea about some builds and classes will be borked, and others will get a boost.. so what? sooner or later new builds will be discovered and things will be back to normal. maybe with a few more bugs. i think about all the ''whinning'' theads that gona be up after teh pass comes live and i think ill just take a break from teh game for a while to skip all the whinners, untill they get used to the game again.

    WB decided to make a change to DDO, time will show if they did good or bad.

    i dont say its gona be fine, but lets wait to see how it will look, and wait for any possible improvements and fixes.

    and again, there was gona be a major change in DDO eventually.
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  3. #3
    Community Member -Zephyr-'s Avatar
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    You and I must have a different meaning for "unwanted".
    Since it was announced more than a year ago, people have been waiting for it. Asking for it.

    Only its final form is criticized, because of the new innate limitations it has, and the fact that people hate changes.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    There are 2 major reasons for this pass.

    1- To make it easier for the players, new and old to chose and plan their enhancements. The current system is not user friendly at all, on any level. and new players, returning players, and even long time vets will find the new UI, to be far superior to what they had worked with. The UI change will be better for everyone involved.

    2- This is also a major revamp of the code that controlled the Enhancement, and this will make it easier and thus less time consuming for the developers to add in/finish off the remaining PRE's for the game.

    Again, both of these things are very good for the game, and will in the end make for a better game overall, a need to revise the existing and very user unfriendly system for both the players and the developers is a long time in coming.

  5. #5
    Community Member HernandoCortez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Zephyr- View Post
    You and I must have a different meaning for "unwanted".
    Since it was announced more than a year ago, people have been waiting for it. Asking for it.

    Only its final form is criticized, because of the new innate limitations it has, and the fact that people hate changes.
    Its not that I hate changes but think of us people with 20+ toons having to reroll them all. Lotsa work, dontcha' think?

    Turbine found a new way to keep people playing DDO: first it was grinding for items and TRing, now its rerolling their toons...
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  6. #6
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    There are 2 major reasons for this pass.

    1- To make it easier for the players, new and old to chose and plan their enhancements. The current system is not user friendly at all, on any level. and new players, returning players, and even long time vets will find the new UI, to be far superior to what they had worked with. The UI change will be better for everyone involved.

    2- This is also a major revamp of the code that controlled the Enhancement, and this will make it easier and thus less time consuming for the developers to add in/finish off the remaining PRE's for the game.

    Again, both of these things are very good for the game, and will in the end make for a better game overall, a need to revise the existing and very user unfriendly system for both the players and the developers is a long time in coming.
    I was happy to see some of the pres finished and some of the more lackluster toons get a little facelift. The new UI is ok, but not really a big deal. I'm much more interested in solid features than a pretty UI. But I understand that a pretty UI might garner some new players, and realize the importance of that.

    And I am baffled about the chicken littles leaving before the pass. I mean, if you love the game so much, why not give it a chance? It's entirely possible that it's not going to be nearly as bad as all the negative attitudes make it sound. I mean, the op in another thread states that the EDs are the final straw, and that's not even finalized or in this pass. Not particularly logical if you ask me, and it's a good example of how toxic all this negativity can be.
    Last edited by AzB; 08-14-2013 at 09:04 AM.

  7. #7
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    The reasons for this have been mentioned by the various devs since this was first announced:
    1. Improved UI making enhancements more accessible to new players.
    2. Expanding the existing enhancement options to provide more options overall than we have at present.
    3. To allow additional enhancement trees to be added in the future much easier than it would have been before.

    No negative reasons at all. Not one. The first iteration of this may not be perfect in every area, but it's not set in stone either.

  8. #8
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    I'm concerned about the pass, but I'm not leaving.

    What am I concerned about?

    Broken builds: I have 30+ characters, and most of the builds just won't work anymore. I'm NOT looking forward to respeccing them all.

    Clickies galore: I'm not a concert pianist, the most I'll get out of the new clickies is carpal tunnel. Don't get me wrong, I get the idea that some classes need a few more gadgets to play with. But it seems overdone, to me.

    Racial trees: While there can be some interesting stuff in them, there's just no AP to spend on it - nearly everything has to go into the class trees for the character to be effective.

    AP spent in tree restrictions: The current system has worked fine without that limitation, and I fail to see why the new system can't, too. One of the bad things about the old system was taking all sorts of pointless things to get to the better ones. They had a great chance of getting rid of this when redesigning the system, but fell short.

    Defender stances requiring shields: Yes, I know they don't - but then again, they do if you actually want them to be worth it. This breaks a lot of fun builds and out of the box thinking about what "tanks" are. If shields were subpar, they should be made better ON THEIR OWN, not by pigeonholing every tank into getting a shield. There should be a choice, not something forced on you.

    A lot of little things: Too numerous to mention here, but minor stuff all over that I feel detracts from the picture.


    What does all this mean? It means that the Enh Pass is good (!), but falls short of being as great and fun as it oculd have been. I hope that this will change over the first few patches, but we'll see.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  9. #9
    Community Member -Zephyr-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HernandoCortez View Post
    Its not that I hate changes but think of us people with 20+ toons having to reroll them all. Lotsa work, dontcha' think?

    Turbine found a new way to keep people playing DDO: first it was grinding for items and TRing, now its rerolling their toons...
    I have 26 characters, and am already planning the min/max details on my mains, as well as thinking about creative builds that will work great after the enhancement pass.
    No, it wasn't a lot of work. Plus, since I enjoy building (that's what I play DDO for), it didn't feel like work at any moment. The people who don't like building characters will be able to take builds from others (the Lamannia forums already have quite a few builds available), and never worry about it at all.
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  10. #10
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    Well I think most of the complainers, that I've noticed, are ones that are playing the current min-maxed uber builds, and so they're the ones that stand to lose the most when those builds are balanced.

    The EP definitely is an "MMO-fication" of DDO. Its bringing the game away from PnP emulation and closer to other MMOs. PnP is more about having a few active abilities (Feats, mostly), and then advancing your character with passive, numerical bonuses. MMOs are more about gaining new abilities as you advance, rather than just enhancing the ones you've had since early on.

    For example, you could have Cleave/Great Cleave by L6, and your combat hotbar would be essentially "done"...you'd just get things like Improved Crit, +DC to Tactical, etc. after that. Really, only the Sorc/Wiz PrEs had any active abilities that you didn't get till after L12, but they were already the most "MMO-like" since their spells were tiered by level.

    EDs were the first step in "MMO-fication", adding in a lot of new abilities and especially ones that weren't available until higher in the tree. EP is meant to bring that model down through Heroic as well.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by HernandoCortez View Post
    Its not that I hate changes but think of us people with 20+ toons having to reroll them all. Lotsa work, dontcha' think?

    Turbine found a new way to keep people playing DDO: first it was grinding for items and TRing, now its rerolling their toons...
    Maybe they are not focused on keep the people that have 10+ lives and have played all the content 2000 times.

    As someone just coming back I was blogged down on the amount of work looked like it would take to get a build up to raid ready I was about to drop the game again. But I enjoyed playing my characters and starting the new iconics on the beta server, so much I just purchased the underdark and new expansions. So I've returned to the game after 5 years. I left when the level cap was 14, so I have a lot of content to look forward too.

    As someone that played through the Starwars Galaxies Combat Upgrade and NGE, this isn't much of a change. It seems they are only fixing shortcomings in the old systems that allowed very smart players to manipulate the system beyond their intentions.

    And as someone else pointed out they may be trying to replace subsystems that would cause issues when trying to balance and/or create new content. While they may lose people they could also gain those that quit because of the old system.

    Now if they could just work on the crafting and inventory system then it would really rock.

  12. #12
    Community Member HernandoCortez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Zephyr- View Post
    I have 26 characters, and am already planning the min/max details on my mains, as well as thinking about creative builds that will work great after the enhancement pass.
    No, it wasn't a lot of work. Plus, since I enjoy building (that's what I play DDO for), it didn't feel like work at any moment. The people who don't like building characters will be able to take builds from others (the Lamannia forums already have quite a few builds available), and never worry about it at all.
    I do enjoy building but I rather play DDO for the fun of trying that build out.
    Instead of just developing a new build for the pleasure of it alone...

    It will take a lot of time to redo everything and I won't have that time available to me anytime soon.
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  13. #13
    Community Member HernandoCortez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazaar View Post
    Maybe they are not focused on keep the people that have 10+ lives and have played all the content 2000 times.

    As someone just coming back I was blogged down on the amount of work looked like it would take to get a build up to raid ready I was about to drop the game again. But I enjoyed playing my characters and starting the new iconics on the beta server, so much I just purchased the underdark and new expansions. So I've returned to the game after 5 years. I left when the level cap was 14, so I have a lot of content to look forward too.

    As someone that played through the Starwars Galaxies Combat Upgrade and NGE, this isn't much of a change. It seems they are only fixing shortcomings in the old systems that allowed very smart players to manipulate the system beyond their intentions.

    And as someone else pointed out they may be trying to replace subsystems that would cause issues when trying to balance and/or create new content. While they may lose people they could also gain those that quit because of the old system.

    Now if they could just work on the crafting and inventory system then it would really rock.
    As you said you have plenty of reasons to like the changes right now: a LOT of new content for you to try. Just think of those of us who already tried this content and would like to keep doing so, but will have to spend their gaming time rerolling toons instead of just playing... yes, its a pain.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    AP spent in tree restrictions: The current system has worked fine without that limitation, and I fail to see why the new system can't, too. One of the bad things about the old system was taking all sorts of pointless things to get to the better ones. They had a great chance of getting rid of this when redesigning the system, but fell short.
    Just wanted to touch on this one things. AP spent in tree restrictions are necessary for how the system is set up.

    The way it is now, you have multiple big-ticket enhancements (PrEs) that are exclusive, and them being exclusive is important. They provide the major improvements to a character, and in some cases can drastically change the character.

    If you removed the AP spent in tree requirements from the EP, people would be able to take several capstone or near-capstone abilities in several PrEs. The level 20 core class abilities, and to a lesser extent the lower-level cores and ML5 non-cores have as much impact as the current PrEs and capstones, and they have similar requirements (AP spent on other enhancements, levels in a class, and generally being [at least mostly] exclusive from each other); they're functionally equivalent.

    Currently, outside of the PrEs, most of the enhancements are what could be referred to as "fluff". They're relatively small changes that don't change a character's playstyle, but instead give them more tools or bonuses. These are the exact same as the lower-level abilities in the EP trees. Both of these groups of enhancements are generally low-impact, low-cost, and low-requirement; they're functionally equivalent.

    Removing the AP spent in tree requirement (ie, removing the requirement to take fluff enhancements) would be the same as removing the fluff AP expenditures required to take current PrEs, while also allowing people to take several PrEs in their main class. Anybody with a pure or mostly-pure build would drop a little fluff to pick up another PrE in a heartbeat, which is a problem, because there's no longer a choice. You don't choose between AM and PM, you drop some SP or some crit damage or some power in your secondary element and pick up both PrEs, because being both is simply better than only being one.

    And yes, they did improve the whole "taking all sorts of pointless things to get to the better ones". There are relatively few pointless enhancements that will be required in order to take something else, and there are also going to be more options available, so if you don't feel that X powerful enhancement is worth taking Y pointless enhancements for, then there's powerful enhancements V, W, and Z available. Of course, there's still some classes a little bit short on trees compared to others, but that can be fixed...

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    Just wanted to touch on this one things. AP spent in tree restrictions are necessary for how the system is set up.
    In some cases, yes. In many other cases, I do not agree. If there's already arrow-prereqs, I do not see the issue. And there's already class level requirements, as well.

    In any case, I feel that the splitting-up of core class abilities into different trees would make AP-spent-in-tree a very bad thing, since it now becomes impossible (or nearly so) to take core class enhancements from other trees.

    As for removing pointless prereqs: It did get a little better in some places, but generally, no. Racial trees are full of them to the point that I will be taking nearly no points in them, and if I want to get core class enhancements from before the enh pass I will need to invest a lot in them, too. Even if not, there are still a fair amount left in the trees.
    Last edited by Dandonk; 08-15-2013 at 01:58 AM.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    In some cases, yes. In many other cases, I do not agree. If there's already arrow-prereqs, I do not see the issue. And there's already class level requirements, as well.
    Everybody gets all the strongest enhancements of whatever class they want, is the issue. Pure characters get all the capstones and all the high-tier enhancements they want. There's no longer any choice to be made, because you simply get all the best stuff you want. It might be fine if enhancements were simply a cloud of abilities you picked from and were balanced as such, but enhancements with higher requirements are generally flat-out better, thus they need those higher requirements. It would require remaking enhancements entirely (again) to remove AP spent per tree requirements.

    In any case, I feel that the splitting-up of core class abilities into different trees would make AP-spent-in-tree a very bad thing, since it now becomes impossible (or nearly so) to take core class enhancements from other trees.
    I'm curious what you think "core class abilities" are, because I see none of those in the trees. There are things that are core to classes *as we know them now*, like a Barbarian's Frenzy, but if you feel that something is so important that it's "core" to the class (or a build, or a playstyle, or...), then by all means take them! There are things that could be considered "core" in that respect in every tree, which is sort of the point. Each tree has different features, themes, playstyles, strengths, and weaknesses, so you pick what you want. The way it currently is... there isn't nearly as much variation, largely *because* all of the potential "core" abilities are all stuck together into one single PrE line and don't have a unifying group of enhancements around them that we can pick and choose (or not) what we want from.

    As for removing pointless prereqs: It did get a little better in some places, but generally, no. Racial trees are full of them to the point that I will be taking nearly no points in them, and if I want to get core class enhancements from before the enh pass I will need to invest a lot in them, too. Even if not, there are still a fair amount left in the trees.
    I agree that the racial enhancements are generally sub-par compared to class enhancements, and that the low level enhancements especially in a lot of them could use some improvement/variety to make them worth taking compared to higher level ones. But racial trees are only a fraction of the new enhancements overall; the rest of them are generally pretty good about not having pointless prerequisites. Racial enhancements can (and probably will) be buffed at some point, especially if they see that people aren't taking very many of them. Still the racial enhancements can help fill in gaps when class enhancements run dry, especially on pure builds using classes with fewer trees.

    You have to invest a lot to get PrEs in the current state of the game, too. Most PrEs have (sometimes steep) feat requirements that are being freed up, and the enhancement requirements are generally similar. Class level requirements are being lowered in most cases (Endless Fusillade requires only Arti 4 as opposed to Arti 6, for instance), as are character level requirements in a lot of cases. I'd say the investments needed for powerful abilities are more lax in general after the EP, really.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    Everybody gets all the strongest enhancements of whatever class they want, is the issue. Pure characters get all the capstones and all the high-tier enhancements they want. There's no longer any choice to be made, because you simply get all the best stuff you want.
    Obviously this isn't true because you can only select Tier 5 enhancements from a single tree, all of the rest are then red-boxed. There's plenty of choice to be made, although some of the choices like Wand Heightening as a pre-req for Wand and Scroll Mastery makes no sense, although at least that is now only in the Wizard, Druid and Bard trees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    I'm curious what you think "core class abilities" are, because I see none of those in the trees.
    Try looking at the bottom row of each enhancement tree.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    the low level enhancements especially in a lot of them could use some improvement/variety to make them worth taking compared to higher level ones
    Of course higher level enhancements should be more powerful than the lower level ones - they're what you work up to, and the cost of the high level enhancements is actually the sum of all other AP spent in that tree to reach them.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    Everybody gets all the strongest enhancements of whatever class they want, is the issue. Pure characters get all the capstones and all the high-tier enhancements they want.
    Well, this is not true. You can only take one of the highest tier abilities, since taking one locks the others out.

    And I don't mind AP-in-tree for the bottom tier thing, the "core" abilities. I just mind it for getting stuff like haste boost and other significant enhancements that were previously available to all characters of a certain class. That's what I meant by core enhancements, btw, not the new "core" thingies.

    The best option, IMO, if they won't remove AP-in-tree, would be to make generic class trees for these abilities.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    I'm curious what you think "core class abilities" are, because I see none of those in the trees.
    Haste boost, song boost, all the normal enhancements we have now that do not depend on PrE.

    Having to spec (sometimes fairly heavily) into an off-tree to get abilities that are part of what the CLASS is, not the PrE, seems silly



    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    I agree that the racial enhancements are generally sub-par compared to class enhancements, and that the low level enhancements especially in a lot of them could use some improvement/variety to make them worth taking compared to higher level ones. But racial trees are only a fraction of the new enhancements overall; the rest of them are generally pretty good about not having pointless prerequisites. Racial enhancements can (and probably will) be buffed at some point, especially if they see that people aren't taking very many of them. Still the racial enhancements can help fill in gaps when class enhancements run dry, especially on pure builds using classes with fewer trees.
    I tried to remake/make around eight of my characters on lama. Only one of them actually used the racial tree, and even that actually hurt him to the point that I do not feel certain I will do so on live.

    The racial trees are even worse than class trees. Even if they do nothing else, this really should be looked at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    You have to invest a lot to get PrEs in the current state of the game, too. Most PrEs have (sometimes steep) feat requirements that are being freed up, and the enhancement requirements are generally similar. Class level requirements are being lowered in most cases (Endless Fusillade requires only Arti 4 as opposed to Arti 6, for instance), as are character level requirements in a lot of cases. I'd say the investments needed for powerful abilities are more lax in general after the EP, really.
    I'm happy that feat requirements are going, but the AP-in-tree are so much of a limitation that it heavily pushes people into making less choices outside of the trees, making for less interesting/outside-the-box builds than could otherwise be the case.

    There are other options, sometimes already used, to limit the amount of high-tier abilities you can get. Arrow-prereqs, class levels, locking-out of tier 5s, and I'm sure even more I can't remember atm.
    It's definitely an N-word.

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