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  1. #1
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    Default Newcomer retention seems poor.

    Newcomer retention seems poor.

    Some characters appear to have been around for years but it seems that many newcomers are leaving DDO when they reach Level 10 or so. This is not too surprising since grouping becomes necessary at that level and most random groups and guild groups move way too fast for most players on their first time through the quests.

    This problem is amplified by guilds recruiting any and all players thay can without regard for basic things like playing speed, roleplaying, or exploring. Forming a group containing a player that wants to finish the quest ASAP and another that wants to explore every part of the map is a recipe for disaster.

    Now DDO needs to attract large numbers of newcomers and retain them long enough to spend some money. [Besides the typical "horse armor" there are some things for sale that are an excellent value if only the new players would stay around long enough to buy them.]

    Hirelings can work for newcomers up to a point but at a certain level disarming traps becomes mandatory. If a new freeper can't find a trapper to group with the only other choice is to buy expensive rogue hireling contracts with real money. Most newcomers seem to be moving on to other titles rather than buying that sort of "horse armor".

    Too bad too because DDO had real potential as a sort of multiplayer Morrowind-ish kind of idea.

    All that is needed is a few good guilds for newcomers and most of them would probably stick around long enough to buy a few things and help to keep the servers going.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waaye View Post
    Newcomer retention seems poor.

    Some characters appear to have been around for years but it seems that many newcomers are leaving DDO when they reach Level 10 or so. This is not too surprising since grouping becomes necessary at that level and most random groups and guild groups move way too fast for most players on their first time through the quests.

    This problem is amplified by guilds recruiting any and all players thay can without regard for basic things like playing speed, roleplaying, or exploring. Forming a group containing a player that wants to finish the quest ASAP and another that wants to explore every part of the map is a recipe for disaster.

    Now DDO needs to attract large numbers of newcomers and retain them long enough to spend some money. [Besides the typical "horse armor" there are some things for sale that are an excellent value if only the new players would stay around long enough to buy them.]

    Hirelings can work for newcomers up to a point but at a certain level disarming traps becomes mandatory. If a new freeper can't find a trapper to group with the only other choice is to buy expensive rogue hireling contracts with real money. Most newcomers seem to be moving on to other titles rather than buying that sort of "horse armor".

    Too bad too because DDO had real potential as a sort of multiplayer Morrowind-ish kind of idea.

    All that is needed is a few good guilds for newcomers and most of them would probably stick around long enough to buy a few things and help to keep the servers going.
    So start one.

    I know there is one on thelanis for sure. I'm sure other servers already have similar guilds as well.

    you realize DDO is going on 8 years right? You also realize that we are in the middle of the summer are the end of a very dry dev cycle?
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  3. #3
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    Default Yeah, right!

    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    So start one.

    I know there is one on thelanis for sure. I'm sure other servers already have similar guilds as well.

    you realize DDO is going on 8 years right? You also realize that we are in the middle of the summer are the end of a very dry dev cycle?
    Answer to the question first. You do know I have been playing D&D for 35 years, right? And computer adventure games from before microcomputers ever existed, right? And you do know that the DDO community is well known to be the worst of all the MMO communities, bar none, right?

  4. #4
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waaye View Post
    And you do know that the DDO community is well known to be the worst of all the MMO communities, bar none, right?
    I... Don't know what to say. This is the best community I've found.
    Ever.
    I've found a few really cool guilds on other games, but on the whole, this is the most mature community.
    *Note. Also the most friendly community, unless they're engaged in a zerg-farm.

  5. #5
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waaye View Post
    And you do know that the DDO community is well known to be the worst of all the MMO communities, bar none, right?
    That is categorically untrue. The last 3 MMOs I've sampled have been chock full of completely asinine idiots. Saying even ONE word in Gen chat in supposedly 'newbie friendly' areas is an invitation to every kind of abuse, spam, harassment, gold selling, etc. Even the well established MMO giants suffer from those insufferable jerkwads. Have you walked around in WoW lately? It's a living hell. A nightmare. No thank you.

    DDO has one of the most helpful, newb friendly communities I've ever seen in any game bar none.

    If people are leaving when the game starts getting tougher, it's their own fault. The resources for help are literally ALL around them, in the form of Newb friendly guilds, like ours and many others, DDOWiki, /advice channel, these forums, and more.

    Our guild still gets fairly regular hits from new players applying. And well over 50% stay, cap, and grow to help the guild and the community in general.

    In short, I disagree with your assessment.

  6. #6
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    Tell him again, BOgre, I don't think he heard you.
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  7. #7
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    Default Are we talking about the same game?

    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    ...In short, I disagree with your assessment.
    Are you in denial? There has been server consolidation going on for years to deal with thinning populations and I expect they went F2P for the same reason. Of the 2400 or so guilds registered on Thelanis only maybe 10% are still functional. Those that remain active are composed mostly of subscribers and you must already know that subscriptions alone is not enough. The problem is that it will be necessary to attract and retain at least ten freepers for every subscriber to keep things going. This means all guilds should be at least 90% F2P players. Is there any guild like that?

    Now, if you were a newcomer is there anything about the patronizing elitist comments in this thread that would encourage you to stay with DDO and spend some money? Well, I'm not impressed by the responses and that is one reason why I don't play much anymore.

    Looking at the convergence to zero servers I would say, based on experience, that the update on the 19th will be close to the last shot at success. [They probably won't operate only one or two servers.] Don't waste this opportunity by chasing away the next batch of freepers that Turbine invites to come and play. The game world belongs entirely to the company and no subscriber owns any part of the turf no matter how long they have been paying to play. F2P newcomers have as much right to enjoy DDO as any of the rest of you.

    Without them you won't be playing by yourselves, soon you won't be playing at all. Is anybody starting to get that yet?

  8. #8
    The Hatchery stoerm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waaye View Post
    There has been server consolidation going on for years to deal with thinning populations
    DDO had one round of server merges, in 2007. Asian and European services were shut down altogether, also way back. DDO is doing very well, the worst period was prior to going free to play in 2009.

    The problem of new player and vet playstyle conflicts is nothing new. The main remedy for this is to write and read LFMs correctly. Kick those who don't adhere to the rules. Welcome to DDO, may you find like minded players.

    P.S. You don't have to be a subscriber to support the game. Turbine points and expansion packs count too.

    P.P.S. The game seems to be "dying" just prior to every update, especially towards the end of the holidays.

    August 2012
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    etc. etc.
    Last edited by stoerm; 08-14-2013 at 04:20 AM.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waaye View Post
    Now, if you were a newcomer is there anything about the patronizing elitist comments in this thread that would encourage you to stay with DDO and spend some money?
    Find me these elitist comments.
    People said to start your own newb friendly guild, people disagreed with your assertion DDO has the "worst of all the MMO communities, bar none", people spoke about learning tools for new players.
    So, I'll ask again: Where are the elitist comments?

    "Without them you won't be playing by yourselves, soon you won't be playing at all. Is anybody starting to get that yet?" No, nobody gets this. Not at all. If I TR, I run an "All welcome" LFM until level 12, where it just changes to "Elite BB" or "Elite for BB, then hard farm".
    I support new players every way I can. And I know I'm not the only one.

    Hell, you insulting the DDO community would do more damage than an elitist kicking a new player. You can dismiss one player as an ass, the world is populated by them.
    But an insult to the community has much more weight, unfounded or not.

    Anyway, this is Thelanis - how can we recruit new players into guilds?
    Some guild, whom shall be known as X for this discussion, seems to invite every new player. Maybe if a better guild invited them, who knows.
    *Note. This is based off personal experience to see if guild X was as bad as people claimed.
    It's worse.

  10. #10
    Community Member anivaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Find me these elitist comments.
    People said to start your own newb friendly guild, people disagreed with your assertion DDO has the "worst of all the MMO communities, bar none", people spoke about learning tools for new players.
    So, I'll ask again: Where are the elitist comments?

    "Without them you won't be playing by yourselves, soon you won't be playing at all. Is anybody starting to get that yet?" No, nobody gets this. Not at all. If I TR, I run an "All welcome" LFM until level 12, where it just changes to "Elite BB" or "Elite for BB, then hard farm".
    I support new players every way I can. And I know I'm not the only one.

    Hell, you insulting the DDO community would do more damage than an elitist kicking a new player. You can dismiss one player as an ass, the world is populated by them.
    But an insult to the community has much more weight, unfounded or not.

    Anyway, this is Thelanis - how can we recruit new players into guilds?
    Some guild, whom shall be known as X for this discussion, seems to invite every new player. Maybe if a better guild invited them, who knows.
    *Note. This is based off personal experience to see if guild X was as bad as people claimed.
    It's worse.
    I have been playing DDO for a while, and I can tell you that there are a lot more selfish players now than there were when I started. A guy enters a party with low hps.....booted. When I started, I met a ton of players that would help me and even throw me an occasional item. Now, I do the same when I meet a noob on my TRs. I also put every quest I run up as an lfm. There are a lot more selfish players now that run exclusively through chat channels and never pug or help the community. Your experience may vary....
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  11. #11
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anivaj View Post
    I have been playing DDO for a while, and I can tell you that there are a lot more selfish players now than there were when I started. A guy enters a party with low hps.....booted. When I started, I met a ton of players that would help me and even throw me an occasional item. Now, I do the same when I meet a noob on my TRs. I also put every quest I run up as an lfm. There are a lot more selfish players now that run exclusively through chat channels and never pug or help the community. Your experience may vary....
    ...I take back what I said then. I'll group with everyone and anyone.
    Even that level 7 with 67 hp. He was quite fun, didn't die once.
    The legend life w/ 250 hp did.

  12. #12
    Community Member anivaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    ...I take back what I said then. I'll group with everyone and anyone.
    Even that level 7 with 67 hp. He was quite fun, didn't die once.
    The legend life w/ 250 hp did.
    I run my 18th life wiz as a dumped con drow and always enter a party with the lowest hps I can get. Needless to say I get booted a lot.
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  13. #13
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    Well Waaye, here's my own assessment:

    I've played over a dozen MMOs. I play MMOs mainly for the community, and there is a reason I keep coming back to DDO after these last five years. Let's break it down.

    General chat: Many MMOs I've played have faced a general chat that I often have to disable due to people name calling, trash talking, politics and sexual junk that is continuous and pervasive. Some were pretty well modded with serious infractions leading to bans... but I could pretty much expect to see it daily. DDO is one of the very few (read this as 2) that this is NOT an issue. Now you can claim that as the server being dead, but this is a fact that has held true since I started playing, and the server is far from dead.


    Maturity: Lonely basement dwellers "looking for love" in MMOs exist in every MMO. You have bottom barrel games like Tera where if you play a female toon, you will be asked if you're a girl in pretty much every PUG. Of the thousand+ PUGs I've been in in DDO, I can think of maybe twice someone inquiring as to the gender of a party member. This far better than every single other MMO I've ever played. Heck, most MMOs I see girlfriend requests in General chat.

    Helpfulness: This gets a bit gray. Many MMOs are not as complex as DDO needing no more mechanics than running up and hitting ****. "Help" is more defined by the ability to get a healer or a party than actual need of a guide or question answering. In DDO you have traps, locked doors, puzzles, and a few boss mechanics. When it comes to asking questions or even a guide, I've never had any real issues finding help. /advice almost always nets an answer (which is not the case in many MMOs). And if you ask for help or a guide in your party, I don't get "oh, eff, a noob - *party drop*"... they either help, or admit they are also new, and it becomes a quest you discover together. The key, though, is asking. I don't go asking people if they need their hand held - but if they ask for help, I've never said no or been told no.

    As for the actual dungeons, all locked and secret doors are optional or have a general dungeon mechanic to get past. I can't think of a quest with impassible traps in required zones as they either have timed gaps to run through, safe paths, or can be jumped over (so no, there is no point where disarming traps is mandatory). No rogue has never stopped me from running a dungeon, and I don't use pocket rogues unless there is a chest guarded by traps of such value that the chest + trap XP becomes worth the TP cost (which falls within your favor > free TP cost range). For quests that you're learning, not having a rogue simply means it's a run where you'll likely have deaths, but you get to learn the trap patterns. I've died to traps hundreds of times, and I don't care. The deaths taught me where the traps are... the rest of the party (as well as me) gets to see the traps and thus see how to get past them. They've purposely designed the game so that a trapper is not a required player, but is still a desired role in a party.

    This leads to the next part:


    Parties: DDO actually has one of the best party find systems in game I've ever seen in an MMO. You can specifically specify quest, difficulty, desired class types, desired level ranges as well as add personal descriptions to your party posting. In addition, they also have automatic party find/posting with customization options for whenever you enter a dungeon. Then they also have player searches - so you've been holding out for a rogue/arti? Search for any class/level/name. It tells you if they are searching for parties, how many are online, etc. I've filled out many parties, and have joined many parties, because of a tell sent to me from that system. If there is any issue, it's the fact that the game is TOO solo-able. With no quests having specific class gates, many of the long time players just hop in and bang out whatever quest we need and not bother with parties... this is something I'm quite guilty of. Hirelings compound the lack of need to find a party. So I guess this then begs the question which is better: Having an MMO designed that forces parties, thus more of the player base is looking for parties but face the chance of being content-blocked if you can't get one? Or one that you can solo, but because of that, less of the player base needs you, and thus are less people looking for parties making it harder to find one? Personally I've found DDO to be in a good spot party wise - I've never had a real issue filling parties due to all the tools provided, and I've also never needed to wait for a party to do a quest.

    In addition, with a built in chat system, it allows for a much more social party. Having the ability to just chat makes partying more enjoyable for social reasons beyond any game mechanical needs of a party.


    Guilds: So you complained about guilds that recruit any and all players without any purpose or regard. Ummm, is there an MMO with a guild system that DOESN'T have zerg guilds? It's pretty much always been a rule of thumb that any guild in any MMO that spams chats/party systems to join their guild or shoots a random invite is a zerg guild with no purpose other than numbers. Using the forum system to list their guild purpose (like they have here) and/or link to their guild website where which you the player finds a guild that fits you according to what each guild posted is the proper way to find a guild. You could also pay attention to how people play in game, and then inquire after their guild that way... but don't expect well established and organized guilds to search you out and beg you to join them. It's not a factor of DDO, it's a factor of ANY MMO.


    Free to Play MMOs: It's true that historically going F2P is the death throws of an MMO. There is not enough subscribers to support the MMO, so in a last ditch, they go F2P to try to get the player base back, and then try to float off a cash shop. The thing is, companies are learning that F2P is a far more stable way to support an MMO. Instead of the life of your MMO being completely dictated by how large the player base is with a static income per player - the income per player is now uncapped. You may have players that provide no income, and players that provide 100 times that of what a single subscription would provide... multi-billion dollar companies have been founded off this gaming model. The cycle of release with subscriptions cash grabbing on initial interest probably won't die yet, but I expect more and more MMOs to release as F2P or jump to F2P more quickly. DDO has been running for over 4 years under the F2P model, and trust me - Turbine/WB would not want to pay for servers if they were not needed. They watch cycles and user numbers carefully, and if numbers ever consistently trend low enough that they can merge servers, it WILL happen... asking on your current perceived perception of a servers population when you have no data means nothing. It's true that the server is on the downside of a cycle (summer time, and no recent content updates, though one is coming soon) - but DDO is still going strong.


    TL;DR - I completely disagree with you about DDO's community - it's by far one of the better ones. I also disagree with DDO dying... but then you're by far from the only one to decree on the forums that a MMO is dying. Some people are narrow-minded/narcissistic enough to seem to think that the success of an MMO is dictated by their personal desire to play it. If they don't like it, no one will, and thus the MMO's demise is inevitable. Pretty much it boils down to this: DOooOooM threads have never and will never do anything. Either work for helping change the issues of the game, do nothing, or quit. Change ALWAYS starts with you - think a guild should be a certain way, make one that way. Think a party should be a certain way, make one that way. Think a game mechanic is broken? They have a bug report system for glitches, and a suggestion forum for ideas. You're only one player, so you must realize they won't build the game around you... but doing nothing guarantees nothing will happen. Contribute... and maybe something will.


    Unfortunately it's past my bed time, and I'm too tired to resist your flame bait: No one called you names - they simply said they disagree with you and think DDO has a great community... one even trying to place an argument to your 'statement'. You come back with bragging about how long you've played D&D (and that qualifies you for running a MMO how?), playing computer games before personal computers, and then posted this flame bait. No one actually down talked you or new players. The comment of "If people are leaving when the game starts getting tougher, it's their own fault" from BOgre was followed by reasoning, not by "L2P n00b!", which I have indeed seen in many other forums of other MMOs. I personally draw a very different conclusion on who's comments are patronizing and elitist and who's are not apparently.

    I'm curious, though, as to what hat you're pulling the "ten freepers for every subscriber to keep things going" statistic from. Inactive guilds/players has absolutely no bearing as DDO doesn't delete players/guilds after a certain amount of time (some MMOs do), so you're looking at years of clutter (to think more than 10% of guilds will stick to a single game for more than 6 years is just silly). Economically, it would make sense that if there was a player base of 1 million players, would it not be better if 50% were paying players instead of only 10%? The percentage of "freepers to subscribers" has absolutely no bearing to the continuation of an MMO - that is purely economical and the number of actual monetarily contributing players dictates that. The only item of concern is player retention period - whether they subscribe or not means nothing. You're arguing that new players are quitting because we suck and that "the DDO community is well known to be the worst of all the MMO communities". We're coming back with our own experiences and stating that we disagree with your flaming.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waaye View Post
    Answer to the question first. You do know I have been playing D&D for 35 years, right? And computer adventure games from before microcomputers ever existed, right? And you do know that the DDO community is well known to be the worst of all the MMO communities, bar none, right?
    Better than just about any other MMO I have seen myself and who is this known to? Every other forum I have visited is less friendly than here

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    Thumbs up New Player's Comment

    I consider myself a new player, there is still so much I don't know/understand and less than a year playing. However I have always received help when I have asked a question(in general chat or on the forums), I often get invites to run quests and people are usually very understanding when I admit to general uselessness and high chance of dying!! 'Give it a go we'll help' being the usual type of reply, so maybe I've just been lucky or the DDO community is actually a very decent bunch of people. Of course there are idiots and trolls....but that's what laughter is for!! Oh and on the subject of traps and Rogue hires, I use hires a lot, I have NEVER used a rogue, traps are a pain but there are always ways and means of getting past them....death and raise dead being one....LOL. Before someone pipes up with 'bet you only have low lvl toons' My troop presently stand at lvl22(holding 23) cleric, lvl18(holding 19) wizard, lvl16 pally and lvl10 fighter so it can be done without a rogue!! I really enjoy DDO and honestly believe that if a new player needs or wants help it will be provided but as a new player to get that assistance you have to be pro-active after all mind-reading isn't on the skills list!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waaye View Post
    And you do know that the DDO community is well known to be the worst of all the MMO communities, bar none, right?
    This used to be case, but it really hasn't been for almost a year now. The forum community is horrible, but the in-game community has matured. I don't know why this is, but if I had to guess, I'd bet it's because of shrinking populations. Elitist jerks used to be able to hide among the masses, and there were enough of them to allow a small elitist jerk community to thrive. These days, once you get that reputation, you're basically blacklisted and DDO becomes a solo game, causing you to leave, reroll with a new identity, or only play the game solo where bad behavior doesn't reach other players.


    As for new player retention. It's obviously due to the lack of f2p content as you reach higher levels.

  17. #17
    Community Member Uidolon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waaye View Post
    Without them you won't be playing by yourselves, soon you won't be playing at all. Is anybody starting to get that yet?

    "DDO or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Doooom"

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    This used to be case, but it really hasn't been for almost a year now. The forum community is horrible, but the in-game community has matured. I don't know why this is, but if I had to guess, I'd bet it's because of shrinking populations. Elitist jerks used to be able to hide among the masses, and there were enough of them to allow a small elitist jerk community to thrive. These days, once you get that reputation, you're basically blacklisted and DDO becomes a solo game, causing you to leave, reroll with a new identity, or only play the game solo where bad behavior doesn't reach other players.
    LOL - like us elitist-jerks need anyone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    LOL - like us elitist-jerks need anyone?
    I wouldn't equate elitist jerk with good player. I've found that usually they're okay players. Know just enough to make them think they know everything. In which case, yes, they DO need people.

  20. #20
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I wouldn't equate elitist jerk with good player. I've found that usually they're okay players. Know just enough to make them think they know everything. In which case, yes, they DO need people.
    But there are more than enough of us jerks to band together and form a union, we even offer dental.

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