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Thread: Toughness Feat

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    Default Toughness Feat

    I have acquired the toughness feat multiple times and the epic toughness feat. I wanted to trade out some of my toughness feats to add in some new things for the toon. When I speak with Fred though, it only gives me the option to replace the Epic Toughness feat which I actually would like to keep. Is this a bug? Is this WAI? Is there away around it without reincarnating?

  2. #2

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    Fred won't let you exchange any feat that is a prereq for another feat. He only shows you the "top level" feats.

    Because you have multiple toughness feats you ideally should be allowed to trade one out. But Fred is a simple Mind Flayer; he sees Epic Toughness in your feat list so won't let you swap out any prereq feats for it. Which includes all of your toughnesses.

    The workaround is to swap out Epic Toughness for something else, then swap out one of your regular toughness for what you want, then you can swap Epic Toughness back in. Long, slow and painful but it works.

    However, you get a free LR+20 token on Monday, so just wait for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Fred won't let you exchange any feat that is a prereq for another feat. He only shows you the "top level" feats.

    Because you have multiple toughness feats you ideally should be allowed to trade one out. But Fred is a simple Mind Flayer; he sees Epic Toughness in your feat list so won't let you swap out any prereq feats for it. Which includes all of your toughnesses.

    The workaround is to swap out Epic Toughness for something else, then swap out one of your regular toughness for what you want, then you can swap Epic Toughness back in. Long, slow and painful but it works.

    However, you get a free LR+20 token on Monday, so just wait for that.
    so what you are saying here, is that it is yet another bug that will be put somewhere on their exhaustive list of things to one day possibly consider having a meeting to kick around the crazy idea of possibly wonder if maybe they should address one day? got ya.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcedes View Post
    so what you are saying here, is that it is yet another bug that will be put somewhere on their exhaustive list of things to one day possibly consider having a meeting to kick around the crazy idea of possibly wonder if maybe they should address one day? got ya.
    This is Toughness specific. I switch out double feats all the time with ranger builds. It very well may be fixed on Monday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    This is Toughness specific. I switch out double feats all the time with ranger builds. It very well may be fixed on Monday.
    It'll be "fixed" by people using their free LR to get rid of Toughness and never taking it again!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    It'll be "fixed" by people using their free LR to get rid of Toughness and never taking it again!
    You mean you'll never take it. It's still 30hp for me ;P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    You mean you'll never take it. It's still 30hp for me ;P
    Unless you planned to also take Epic Toughness, Toughness alone will no longer be worthwhile in the EP. 30 HP is not going to make a difference when mobs are hitting for 300+ damage. Many classes are feat-starved, and it can be replaced with a more-useful combat tactics feat like Improved Sunder/Stunning Blow on a melee, or used towards the Mental Toughness line on a caster (which gives a bonus to Spell Crit now).

    Sorcs in particular struggle to fit all their metamagic feats in, so not needing to take toughness is pretty big now.

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    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    Unless you planned to also take Epic Toughness, Toughness alone will no longer be worthwhile in the EP. 30 HP is not going to make a difference when mobs are hitting for 300+ damage. Many classes are feat-starved, and it can be replaced with a more-useful combat tactics feat like Improved Sunder/Stunning Blow on a melee, or used towards the Mental Toughness line on a caster (which gives a bonus to Spell Crit now).

    Sorcs in particular struggle to fit all their metamagic feats in, so not needing to take toughness is pretty big now.
    It will be interesting to see if your prediction holds true. I'm thinking the opposite is going to happen. Not only will toughness be mandatory but Epic Toughness will also to make up for lost HP's.

    Remember, NPC design is based on Toughness + 20 (to 40, depending on build) Hp's from the enhancements most people purchased. There giving us free HP's just for leveling (or at least I think I read they finally listened to players and are going by character level. Confirm?). Regardless, the game was programmed with players having Toughness and so damage output will still reflect that.

    Unless damage from NPC's scales down (which I have not heard has) or trap damage scales down (ditto) I think the opposite will happen. I am most likely wrong but should be interesting.

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    But with the auto grant hp feat now, there are definitely other feats I consider more important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    You mean you'll never take it. It's still 30hp for me ;P
    I'll be there to raise ya either way!

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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    Unless you planned to also take Epic Toughness, Toughness alone will no longer be worthwhile in the EP. 30 HP is not going to make a difference when mobs are hitting for 300+ damage.
    I've been holding an internal debate about such things for quite a while now. So Toughness is just 30 HP. Vitality aug is just 20 HP. GS is just 45 HP. Sup falselife is just 40 HP. That's 135 (pre % based increase) HP from sources that are just (X) amount. Each point of Con bonus is just (soon to be) 28 HP each. Many (all?) of these sources have competition for "best in slot" regardless of wether it's gear or feat based.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I've been holding an internal debate about such things for quite a while now. So Toughness is just 30 HP. Vitality aug is just 20 HP. GS is just 45 HP. Sup falselife is just 40 HP. That's 135 (pre % based increase) HP from sources that are just (X) amount. Each point of Con bonus is just (soon to be) 28 HP each. Many (all?) of these sources have competition for "best in slot" regardless of wether it's gear or feat based.
    Don't get me wrong, Toughness is still valuable, just not as much as before. If you have to choose between 30 HP and taking Extend on your sorc, I'd personally go for Extend now. A 2 minute displacement will leave you vulnerable to get clobbered, as in the midst of a heated fight you're unlikely to remember to recast it as soon as it runs out.

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    Afaik toughness feat is required to be able to pick the toughness class/racial enhancement lines. Hence, there is actually no good reason to not take toughness a single time. So if I quote ddo wiki toughness feat gets you +27hp at lvl 25. Racial enhancements up to another +40. Class enhancements (Fighter) another 40. Epic toughness +50. So in the worst setting you miss over 150 hp if you do not take the prerequisite toughness feat.

    But I actually do not want to tell somebody how to play ddo nor I do not care how you raise your hp to a level which is considered to be sufficient hp in a common sense as long as you reach it and know your class abilities how to mitigate most damage or heal/repair it yourself.

    Additionally, and only my opinion and just my playstyle, it is non-optional that you wear at least +6 con item + greater false life + heavy fortification for any toon beyond approx. lvl 13.
    Last edited by morkahn82; 08-14-2013 at 01:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by morkahn82 View Post
    Afaik toughness feat is required to be able to pick the toughness class/racial enhancement lines. Hence, there is actually no good reason to not take toughness a single time. So if I quote ddo wiki toughness feat gets you +27hp at lvl 25. Racial enhancements up to another +40. Class enhancements (Fighter) another 40. Epic toughness +50. So in the worst setting you miss over 150 hp if you do not take the prerequisite toughness feat.

    But I actually do not care how you raise your hp to a level which is considered to be sufficient hp in a common sense as long as you reach it.
    That's true today. And tomorrow. And all the way through Sunday. But once U19 hits, there will be no more toughness enhancements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    That's true today. And tomorrow. And all the way through Sunday. But once U19 hits, there will be no more toughness enhancements.
    Um. sorry your wrong. The new enhancement does most defiantly contain toughness lines. I took them on my WF wizzy\ftr\sneak that i leveled up 2 nights ago on lama land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sdrocky View Post
    Um. sorry your wrong. The new enhancement does most defiantly contain toughness lines. I took them on my WF wizzy\ftr\sneak that i leveled up 2 nights ago on lama land.

    mmhmm, but there will be no toughness feat pre req associated to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fTdOmen View Post
    mmhmm, but there will be no toughness feat pre req associated to them.
    Well, lets see when the update hits. I admit that I did not and will not read lamaland release notes to carefully. I am just interested in the changes when they really happen on live servers. But just in case if toughness feat is 30hp only and no prerequisite for racial/class enhancement and epic toughness, the feat will be a bad joke, but my guess is that this will not happen.

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    As a few commented, the toughness enhancements no longer require the toughness feat. Toughness was important not because of that 22 (then 27 and future 30 HP), but because of 40-80 HP in enhancements that came with it. 30 HP for a feat is not worth it - 100 is. Now Toughness is left on the board for people that have more feats than they know what to do with (such as Fighters), or plan in Epic Toughness (which has the multiple toughness lock glitch the OP is reporting). Other players should seriously look at feats to see what they can bump through. With EDs and more items with tactics bonuses, Tactics have never been more reachable for epics, and are immensely useful - Improved Sunder makes Sunder worth using (as the AC change nerfed the usefulness of standard Sunder) and increases the DC. Improved Trip is a longer trip that is harder to save from - I've taken targets completely out of entire fights as they lay floundering on the ground. Stunning Blow is straight DPS increase as it makes the target helpless. Spell feats will allow you to boost more schools or finish out your Meta Magics... heck, I'd even consider Eschew Materials over

    Personally every single one of my chars (other than my pure fighter - and even then he's never going to have more than one) is dropping toughness from their feat list and replacing them with tactics/spell feats. In fact, I've already done so on most my melee classes... some taking 120+ HP hits. To be honest, I've come to the conclusion not even that much HP was worth the combat loss I was taking. Dropping toughnesses (and sadly a PL feat) on my Monk in favor of Whirlwind Attack bolstered my Monk with a good chunk of dodge that more than covered the HP loss and gave me a high-DPS move on a short cooldown. The ridiculously high STR capability of Barb is now bolstered with more tactics. His old HP enhancement points freed to tweak a few more STR points for higher DCs and DPS... his survivability actually increased as a stunned epic mob > 100 HP. So all of my "HP is Everything" that I grew into this game with I now question... and with this upcoming Enhancement pass will repack some the HP making it a no-brainer to drop Toughness. And for the value of HP, it's looking like Race is a far bigger factor than that tired old feat. While I would like that dependancy to disappear, personally I'm glad to see toughness be less important.

    Back on topic of the OP - your question has already been answered, but I'll confirm. Unfortunately Epic Toughness does indeed lock out all toughness feats from Fred as there is currently no check for Fred to unflag subsequent Toughness feats as a pre-req. Unfortunately I do not think the update will resolve this, as there really were no mechanical changes to the feat exchange system in this update. You have two solutions: One is to feat exchange Epic Toughness so the toughnesses are unflagged and you can exchange them at will (though of course has the extra cost of two exchanges associated with that). Or you can reincarnate it through. Luckily we do have a free stone coming our way on Monday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    Unless you planned to also take Epic Toughness, Toughness alone will no longer be worthwhile in the EP. 30 HP is not going to make a difference when mobs are hitting for 300+ damage. Many classes are feat-starved, and it can be replaced with a more-useful combat tactics feat like Improved Sunder/Stunning Blow on a melee, or used towards the Mental Toughness line on a caster (which gives a bonus to Spell Crit now).

    Sorcs in particular struggle to fit all their metamagic feats in, so not needing to take toughness is pretty big now.
    Thing is, my characters usually very rarely are truly feat starved. My Rogue is the only one that I'm concerned about, and to be perfectly honest she had a feat slot left over when I was done designing and that's with toughness already.

    I will concede though that not every character will need to take it. It's a fluff feat, but it has gone the way of Quickdraw. It's not required, but it is a good choice regardless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    I will concede though that not every character will need to take it. It's a fluff feat, but it has gone the way of Quickdraw. It's not required, but it is a good choice regardless.
    My Druid will still take it as one of his extra monk feats. But only because there isn't as much to choose from on the 2 monk splash.
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    Unless you planned to also take Epic Toughness, Toughness alone will no longer be worthwhile in the EP. 30 HP is not going to make a difference when mobs are hitting for 300+ damage. Many classes are feat-starved, and it can be replaced with a more-useful combat tactics feat like Improved Sunder/Stunning Blow on a melee, or used towards the Mental Toughness line on a caster (which gives a bonus to Spell Crit now).

    Sorcs in particular struggle to fit all their metamagic feats in, so not needing to take toughness is pretty big now.
    Yup this is my plan

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