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  1. #1
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Default Hirelings - Devs Please Read.

    Changes I'd like to see to Hirelings:

    DIVINES

    Lvl 6 - Arias should be given Radiant Burst instead of DV - Mareth Keeps DV
    Lvl 9 - Samuel Merrick should be given Radiant Burst instead of Summon Earth Ele
    Lvl 10 - Fayden Maeleth should be given Radiant Burst instead of Turn Undead

    All Hireling Clerics of Lvl 12 and up should be given Radiant Aura
    This should be In Addition to their 4 Abilities and used regularly!
    Also:
    -Lvl 12 - Flagon Moren should be given Radiant Burst instead of Cure Mod Mass

    -Flower - Is a Battle Cleric/Tank - Lose the Turn Undead ability which is terminally bugged for her!
    Replace with FoM

    Also Remove Summon Spider and Replace with Aid Mass

    -Fergus - Currently one of the most useless Hirelings in the game in my experience!
    Remove Dispel Magic and Summon Spider!
    Replace with FoM and DW

    -Lani Vesta - Has FoM but otherwise is all over the place!
    Remove Divine Power and Hold Person!
    Replace with DW and Lesser Restoration or Rem Disease

    Also Replace Cure Mod with Cure Serious!

    -Tazovir - Bard Lvl 10
    Remove Displacement
    Replace with FoM

    Roshan - FvS 11
    Remove Dispel Magic
    Replace with FoM

    Dheran Giles - Cleric 13 - Horrible Hireling
    Remove Greater Dispel
    Replace with FoM

    Skein - FvS 14
    Remove Recitation
    Replace with FoM

    Nina Tegren - FvS 17
    Remove Aid Mass and Prayer
    Replace with FoM and Mass Deathward

    Merenon Lior - FvS 18
    Remove Banishment
    Replace with FoM

    Caraneth Myar - FvS 19
    Remove Fire Storm and Summon Efreet
    Replace with Resurrection and Blade Barrier

    Also fix her DCs for Implosion/BB

    Tanya Brightstone, Skein, Larafay, Merenon, Caraneth, Selis and Andaro to be given AoV Shoulder Cannon
    Duerim, Althea, Nina, Albus, Luna and Brec to be given Bonus from Next FvS Prestige!
    Both of the above IN ADDITION to current 4 abilities!


    MELEES

    Unless other Stances stated assume Power Attack on permanently!

    Unless Stated otherwise Fighter, Paladin and Barb Hirelings should do their absolute best to be 5-10 ft AHEAD of Player Controller at ALL TIMES!

    Lvl 1 Barbs - Byron and Grommisk are too similar
    Move Grommisk to Lvl 2

    Lvl 6 - Kastinalia Windblossom - Ftr
    Replace Attack Boost I and Haste Boost I with Trip and Precision Stance
    Replace Intimidate with Combat Expertise Stance

    Lvl 7 - Syllix Giantbane - Ftr
    Replace Attack Boost I with Cleave

    Lvl 11 - Castle - Ftr {Far too similar to Lvl 10 - Anvil}
    Go Full Stalwart with:
    Stalwart Stance & Combat Expertise on Permanently
    Intimidate at will {NOT on Bar}
    AC Boost II, Improved Trip, Stunning Blow and Haste Boost II on Bar

    P.S. Spec for Bludgeon - Warhammer

    Lvl 13 - Murphy Athenry
    Go Full Stalwart
    See Castle but spec for Slashing and B-Swords

    Lvl 19 - Slash
    Go Full Kensai III with Greatsword
    Replace CE with Cleave
    Replace Intimidate with Great Cleave
    Replace Stunning Blow with Power Surge
    Keep Sunder

    Barbs Lvl 14-22
    Rage, Gorgal, Kern, Arnal - Frenzied Berzerker II
    Helga, Club, Sledge - FB III

    Considering the soon to be Occult Slayer - It might be an idea to pick a couple of these to be remade to suit.

    Paladin 19 - Uma Stonefist
    Replace Divine Favour and Virtue with Deathward and Stalwart Pact

    Assume Divine Favour and Prayer to be cast at start of quest and after shrining and recast upon Expiration until below 25% of Max Spell Points


    ARCANES

    Sorcs

    Lvl 1 = Pointless having TWO Sorcs at lvl 1 {Kurgal and Elizabeth} as there's a Wizard {Rillyn} available
    Move Kurgal to Lvl 2
    Remove Bluff and Diplomacy from his bar
    Assume Diplo used at will
    Replace on bar with Anger's Step Expeditious Retreat Clickie {2 uses per shrine of course}
    and Nightshield.

    Lvl 2 - Parthour the Lethargic - Move to Lvl 3

    Lvl 3 - Arianalla Eyes of Darkness - Move to Lvl 4
    Replace Magic Missile and Summon Poochy with Scorching Ray and Nightshield

    Lvl 4 - Tesztra - Move to lvl 5
    Replace Mage Armour with Nightshield
    IF she doesn't already have AC on Robe or Bracers - Fix it so she does!

    Lvl 5 - Therzith Gianthunter - Move to Lvl 6
    Give Acid Savant I
    Replace entire Bar with Acid Spray {Savant Ability}, Acid Blast, Web and Nightshield

    Lvl 6 - Azala Fireshaper - Move to Lvl 7
    Clearly Fire Savant - Give her the Prestige
    Bar is Fine as is

    Lvl 8 - Flare
    Fire Savant I

    Lvl 9 - Algaur
    Storm Savant I

    Lvl 11 - Aithas the Dour
    Acid Savant I
    Replace Firewall with Acid Rain
    Replace Prismatic Ray with Web
    Give him Heighten!

    Lvl 16 - For some reason we have two of them
    Drop Zefyn Kurimas to Lvl 14
    Replace Firewall with Ice Storm and go Ice Savant II
    Replace Flesh to Stone and Sunburst with Otiluke's Freezing Sphere and Fire Shield

    Mekwi Therzyl - Replace Horrid Wilting with Acid Rain and give him Acid Savant II

    Lvl 17 - Marisia - Go Ice Savant II
    Replace FoD and Haste with Otiluke's and Chain Lightning

    Lvl 18 - Antonio Craft - Give Him Ice Savant III

    Lvl 19 - Namisa Korclaw - Horrible Description implies Evil Hireling?
    Give her Fire Savant III

    Lvl 20 - Kaylen - Give Him Storm Savant III
    Replace Haste and Displacement with Chain Lightning and Mass Hold Monster
    Assume Haste and Displacement Self Cast continuously upon requirement until Below 25% SPs
    Assume Nightshield and Prot Elements cast at start of quest and after Shrining or Resurrection.

    Wizards

    Lvl 5 - Zeran Hamsterherder - BROKEN
    A Lvl 5 Wizard gets 2 {TWO} Lvl 3 Spells - Zeran has 3 of them on his BAR!
    Replace Haste with Web
    Replace Magic Missile {as I'm sure he's still casting Chain Missiles} with Scorching Ray

    Lvl 6 - Blast
    Give him Arch Mage I
    Replace Fireball with Repair Serious Wounds
    Replace Lightning Bolt with Heroism
    Spec for Acid and give him Acid Blast as his go to Spell not on Bar

    Lvl 7 - K'Zurth Q'arab - Teach him what HP are!
    Give him Arch Mage I
    Replace Enervation with Heroism
    Replace Frost Lance with Nightshield
    Spec for Fire and give him Scorching Ray as his go to Spell not on Bar

    Lvl 10 - Yrbildre Corpsebringer
    Give him Pale Master I
    Replace False Life, PK and Cloudkill with Zombie Stance, Highest Available Summoned Skelly and Acid Rain
    Assume Self Casting of Lesser Death Aura/Death Aura whenever necessary

    Lvl 11 - Toad
    Arch Mage II

    Lvl 12 - Keth'am Highwind
    Pale Master II
    Always in Wraith Form - Self Cast at start of quest, after resurrection and after Shrining!
    Assume Self Casting of Lesser Death Aura/Death Aura whenever Necessary

    Lvl 13 - Barrage
    Arch Mage III

    Lvl 14 - Sigil
    Arch Mage III
    Replace Scorching Ray with Reconstruct

    Lvl 17 - Nedry Smallfoot
    Pale Master always in Vamp Form - Self Cast at start of quest, after resurrection and after Shrining!
    Replace Reconstruct and Meteor Swarm with Hypnotism and Energy Drain
    Replace Firewall with Neg Energy Burst
    Assume Self Casting of Death Aura and Lesser Death Aura whenever necessary

    Lvl 18 - Lalisa Forestwing
    Give her Arch Mage V

    Lvl 19 - Darnis Spinethorn
    Give him Arch Mage V

    Lvl 20 - Ulga
    Give her Arch Mage V and Capstone Master of Magic
    Replace Sunburst with Greater Heroism

    Lvl 21 - Grobbin Halfhitch
    Arch Mage V, Capstone Master of Magic and Magister III
    Replace Mordenkainen's Disjunction with Otto's Sphere of Dancing
    Replace Dominate Monster with Energy Drain

    Lvl 22 - Lyvwen
    Arch Mage V, Capstone Master of Magic and Magister IV
    Replace Dominate Monster with Energy Drain

    Lvl 23 - Shael
    Lich Form Pale Master - Permanently in Form
    Capstone Master of Magic and Magister V
    Remove Power Words and Replace with Wail of the Banshee, Energy Drain and Death Aura
    Lesser Death Aura and Neg Energy Burst = Self Cast when required!

    Lvl 24 - Boltha Romagen
    Arch Mage V, Capstone Master of Magic and Magister V
    Remove Meteor Swarm and Mordenkainen's Disjunction and Replace with Chain Lightning {Fully Heightened, Maxed, Empowered!} and Greater Heroism {Extended}

    ROGUES seem fine as is Except for two:

    Lvl 5 - Kelorn Gossinar - BROKEN
    Seems to have Rogue Mech a lvl early
    Easy fix push him to Lvl 6

    Lvl 6 - Kirsten Steele - Acrobat
    Trap Skills need work!

    BARDS {Except for Tazovir who I've already mentioned and One other - see below} I'll leave as is

    Anthem - Lvl 6 Bard
    Absolutely adore that he seems to Hate Boxes with a Passion and will attack them over pretty much anything else!
    BUT
    He does tend to miss some!

    So...I suggest going all the way and making him a Box Breaker extraordinaire and a guaranteed Ransack Bonus - Basically you just need to speed him up and remind him that Sonic Blast will break boxes i.e. he doesn't need to use his Sword on each and every one!

    Oh and of course - Re-Spec him to Warchanter I
    Last edited by FranOhmsford; 08-13-2013 at 05:26 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member 96th_Malice's Avatar
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    Don't care what my clerics have as long as they can keep me alive and from time pick up my dead body off of the floor.

    Cheaper than wands , although they can be un predictable at times.

    For the record ...... Pretty sure you know more about the hirelings than the devs do !!

  3. #3
    Community Member 96th_Malice's Avatar
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    Almost forgot .... Luna 21st lvl FVS needs to be fired !!!

    Never had an easy run with her in party !!

  4. #4

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    Hirelings don't get prestiges, which IMO seems reasonable.

    I do agree the abilities exposed to players for most hires are...suboptimal.

  5. #5
    Community Member waryJerry's Avatar
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    How about doing something more radical? A few months back Turbine put up a permanent level 3 gold seal cleric up for sale: why can't we have more of these? Better yet, design permanent hirelings that level as we do, preferably where we could choose their spells and supply their equipment. My guess is the team has at least considered this possibility. Other games have similar types of hirelings. Would it really do any harm in terms of game balance and, also, wouldn't it bring in some money into the DDO store (especially if this were reasonably priced)?

  6. #6
    Community Member 96th_Malice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waryJerry View Post
    Better yet, design permanent hirelings that level as we do, preferably where we could choose their spells and supply their equipment. (especially if this were reasonably priced)?
    That almost sounds like bringing my wife along again .......... No thanks !!!

  7. #7
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    your suggestions make sense but we really don't need more powerful hirelings.
    Join Date: Nov 2009

  8. #8
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Hirelings don't get prestiges, which IMO seems reasonable.
    Wrong!

    Rogue Hirelings have clearly been given Prestiges!

    Lvl 5 - Kelorn Gossinar - Broken I know - Has a Rogue Mech ability on his bar!
    Lvl 6 - Kirsten Steele - Showtime is on her bar!
    If you carry on up the list you'll notice that quite a few of the Rogue Hirelings have Mech, Acro and at the higher Levels Assassin abilities on their Bars!

    A number of the Fighter Hirelings have clearly been specced as Stalwarts or Kensais - You can see this from their Boosts!
    It wouldn't be difficult for the Devs to fully spec them with the actual prestiges either!

    Paladin Lvl 20 - Vilgo Ghostbreaker has Hunter of the Dead III: Greater Restoration on his Bar!

    Do you want me to carry on?

  9. #9

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    How about you buy a permanent gold-seal hire -- maybe 995 TP, BTC -- who always assumes your level when you summon it. It is automatically summoned with level-appropriate gear, spells, enhancements, etc... (Essentially, design 28 different versions of it, and call the appropriate one when summoned.)

    There could be 3 different hires in the store with 3 different personalities to choose from. Regular "swing my mace between heals" style, crazy aggresive Larafay style, and a brand new "I only seek to defend myself, hiding behind my brave master who I keep healed, along with ONLY his party members. Not his summons or charmed mobs." That last type would always shield block when not moving. heh.

    Their spells would be similarly-themed across levels:

    Regular:
    Raise Dead/cure
    Heal/cure
    Deathward/bless
    Divine Vitality


    Larafay:
    Raise Dead/cure
    Heal/cure
    Destruction/slay living/?
    Cometfall/blade barrier/searing light/nimbus of light


    Defender:
    Raise Dead/cure
    Heal/cure
    Deathward/bless
    FoM/protection from evil

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Do you want me to carry on?
    Please no, I can't take any more exclamation marks.

  10. #10
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    I think Hirelings could use some updating but I would say wait until we see what the enhancement system brings.

    Some of your changes are your flavor and maybe not others. I don't need every cleric or fvs to have fom between 10-18. I, personally, haven't had a problem with Dheran Giles. Some hirelings are good with their spell choices for specific quests or chains. That being said, updating hirelings to keep them up to snuff with player abilities at equal level would be "nice."
    The evolution of DDO: Stormreach to Eberron Unlimited to Dungeons & Dragons Online
    -1- -2- -3- -4- -5- -6- -7- -8- -9- -10 - -11- -12!! years & still spawning kobolds
    From Turbine to SSG, who are the devs anyway? DDO Peeps Tracker


  11. #11
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    How about you buy a permanent gold-seal hire -- maybe 995 TP, BTC -- who always assumes your level when you summon it. It is automatically summoned with level-appropriate gear, spells, enhancements, etc... (Essentially, design 28 different versions of it, and call the appropriate one when summoned.)

    There could be 3 different hires in the store with 3 different personalities to choose from. Regular "swing my mace between heals" style, crazy aggresive Larafay style, and a brand new "I only seek to defend myself, hiding behind my brave master who I keep healed, along with ONLY his party members. Not his summons or charmed mobs." That last type would always shield block when not moving. heh.
    I have my own ideas about Pema Hirelings but this seems an ok start.

    BTW - Your "Brand New" style is actually already available to us - Though strangely enough it's the FavSouls that have been provided with it:

    Lvl 7 - Zaghar Everstar - Is amazing as a Healer!
    Lvl 17 - Nina Tegran is a Full On Healer! - I still don't know what the dev who created her was smoking though when he/she decided to put Prayer and Mass Aid on her Bar - AT LVL 17!

    The Clerics - To my mind the Devs have done exactly the right thing by D&D Lore by making them move into melee combat at every available opportunity - This is what PnP Clerics do!

    However - DDO isn't conducive to this when Hirelings are necessarily so much weaker than Player Characters - In PnP we would have Lvl 20 Players with Lvl 4-7 Hirelings at best and those hirelings would be fully capable of taking care of themselves in most situations {and staying out of Harm's way when necessary!}.
    In DDO the Devs have realized that this just could not work and scaled the Hirelings to our levels but only allowed us to use a very small amount of their abilities.

    If DDO allowed us to use every single spell slot on our Cleric Hirelings they'd be insanely OP
    However I do feel that in their need to keep hirelings from getting too powerful the Devs have made them in turn too weak!

    The Same goes for Summoned Monsters of course!


    I'd love to be able to take Marissa Lorle for example from Lvl 9 - Lvl 25 alongside my Battle Cleric or Archmage - Speccing her as I would spec said Battle Cleric!

    I am extremely irritated by the fact that the Devs gave us a Lvl 3 Gold Seal Perma Hireling {using Elierie Thistledown - an already available hire rather than a completely new one} yet unlike the Panther or the Owlbears said hireling has a Min Lvl of 3 and cannot be used two levels early!
    Basically making her only useful as a Rune Stander in places like Bloody Crypt or Xorian Cypher where you need that 4th body {and only then when you absolutely have to solo/can't find just one player to help you Duo said quests}.

    Frankly the other Lvl 3 Cleric Hire - Erythyn Veridyn is in my view far superior {though this is strange as the two of them have exactly the same HP and SP and Elierie has DV whilst Erythyn doesn't - which would in almost all other cases lead to me using Elierie over Erythyn pretty much all the time!}.
    But Erythyn just has {for me} by far the better AI.


    I'm not the easiest person to get along with - I've known this for over 25 years!
    I do a lot of soloing in DDO - Always with a Hireling
    I do find myself far better at teaching than at learning - Strangely enough I've been thanked by a number of players for helping them with their characters even though I have severe issues with my own.
    I lead my own guild on my main server - Cannith - as I was terrified of not getting along with the Guild Leader or Officers in any Guild I might choose to join {Even the Guild of the real life friends who brought me to DDO - Which was a good thing as we fell out pretty spectacularly a while back (all sorted now but would have been a pain had I accepted being a member of that Guild rather than making my own}.

    I'm far better at leading groups than joining them - Not to beat my own trumpet but rarely do I have issues when leading a group in DDO.
    When leading groups I almost always {except for Raids obviously} have a hireling out myself and am quite happy for those who join to pull hirelings too {something I make sure to let them know}.


    BUT
    For me the biggest thing about Hirelings is that they are {and always have been} part and parcel of Dungeons & Dragons!
    I love that DDO allows me {if I'm willing to spend real money} to make a party of myself and 5 Hires! - Something I have actually done in the past though certainly not often}.
    I would be very happy if the Devs allowed us to have up to 2 standard in-game hirelings per player {for a Premium of course - DDOStore Upgrade!}.

    And I have to keep nagging the Devs to upgrade the Hirelings we do have {along with the rest of the game!}
    When Hirelings first came out there were no Prestiges - Maybe Tempest?
    Now every class has them!
    Every Update changes the game and Hirelings have been left behind - I would like for this to be fixed.

    When i first started playing this game back in spring/summer 2010 I used Kendra {Lvl 5 Cleric} and K'Zurth {Lvl 7 Wizard} the most of any Hirelings.
    In I believe either Update 9 or 10 those two hirelings were heavily nerfed!
    Kendra is still good though nowhere near as good as she was.
    K'Zurth was made useless!

    Then when I got up to the very highest levels {pre MotU} I ran into Caraneth Myar {Lvl 19 FvS} - Wow that hireling was astonishingly good!
    Then they decided to nerf her Implosion - She used to cast it whenever it came off cooldown - Whether or not there were mobs about.
    Yes this meant that she ran out of SPs fast BUT it also made her better than pretty much any Arcane Hireling at killing Mobs!
    She also did not have Resurrection or even Raise Dead on her bar - But that didn't matter
    IT DOES NOW - She's totally useless NOW!

    It's time to STOP Nerfing the Hirelings and START fixing them!

  12. #12
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    I think Hirelings could use some updating but I would say wait until we see what the enhancement system brings.

    Some of your changes are your flavor and maybe not others. I don't need every cleric or fvs to have fom between 10-18. I, personally, haven't had a problem with Dheran Giles. Some hirelings are good with their spell choices for specific quests or chains. That being said, updating hirelings to keep them up to snuff with player abilities at equal level would be "nice."
    Those aren't even half the available Divine Hirelings from Lvl 10-18 and I've deliberately kept FoM mainly for the FavSouls - Mainly because the Clerics have no space for it what with DV.

    The point is that we currently have just ONE Hireling in the entire game able to cast a spell that despite being nerfed is still a virtual must have!
    Lani Vesta - Lvl 9 FvS - And even taking this into account - She's a terrible Divine Hireling!
    Especially when compared to the two Cleric Hirelings of said level - Marissa and Samuel.

    I feel that FoM should be considered for a number of higher level {and lower level where available} Divine Hires - Especially when many of them have a completely useless spell {Dispel and Greater Dispel Magic} on their bars!

    Then there's the likes of Skein {FvS 14} - A Warforged LoB FvS with Greatsword who would benefit more from being given FoM Than from his current Recitation.
    Or there's:
    Nina Tegren {Lvl 17 FvS} Who currently has Prayer and Mass Aid - Both weak at Lvl 17 - Easy to change one of these to a spell that would make her a much more popular hireling i.e. FoM.


    As for Dheran - I've personally found him to have terrible AI and even if he did have better AI I'd still most likely grab the FvS - Duerim Guardwell simply as he has Mass Deathward whilst Dheran has nothing going for him {No DV, No DW, No FoM}. Instead he has Greater Dispel Magic - A completely pointless Spell in DDO.
    Last edited by FranOhmsford; 08-13-2013 at 06:57 PM.

  13. #13
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    I mainly only run with Divine hires, for all the obvious reasons, so I'll only speak to that...but I agree there needs to be some consistent, baseline utility among higher-level hirelings.

    -Every cleric of high enough level should have a rez spell, a heal spell, status restoration spells, and DV in their basic toolbox. It'd be nice if they would automatically DV you, when appropriate, so it didnt need to be on the hotbar (like with some status restoration spells). FvS should have status restoration spells, too, though obviously not DV.

    There's no reason why you should have to run with an under-level hireling, just because the at-level ones lack some core ability you need. The hires should be differentiated by what "extra" skills they have, on top of their core toolbox - Implosion, Greater Command, etc. Deathward might be included on this list, as well, as a core ability.

    -Every cleric/FvS of high enough level should have automatic Quicken enabled. I get so tired of waiting for my cleric hire to rez me, only to have him constantly interrupted, and have to sit there spamming his hotbar over and over, especially when there's not an option for him to grab my stone and go somewhere else safer. Barring that, just give them crazy high Concentration - whatever they have currently is not enough.

    -Hires with buffs on the hotbar should check to see if those buffs are active whenever they enter combat. Ie, if a Cleric has Prayer, whenever their aggro is tripped, they should check to see if you or they (or anyone else in party) needs a Prayer applied to them, and cast it if needed. Having to manually target and click buffs, especially short-term ones, means they pretty much never get used.

  14. #14
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I mainly only run with Divine hires, for all the obvious reasons, so I'll only speak to that...but I agree there needs to be some consistent, baseline utility among higher-level hirelings.

    -Every cleric of high enough level should have a rez spell, a heal spell, status restoration spells, and DV in their basic toolbox. It'd be nice if they would automatically DV you, when appropriate, so it didnt need to be on the hotbar (like with some status restoration spells). FvS should have status restoration spells, too, though obviously not DV.
    from Lvl 3 Onwards
    Clerics with DV

    Elierie Thistledown, Maloren, Kendra Estleton, Mareth Lorestryn, Arias Oreth, Laerathor, Marissa Lorle, Arkyn Shahrud, Miranda Kelven, Tempys Lorben, Jatrina Sartosa, Natasha Thorston, Ayron Staliya {Lvl 17 being the Highest Lvl that a Hireling has DV}.

    Clerics without DV

    Erythyn Veridyn, Molin Caskenflagon, Flower, Fergus, Samuel Merrick, Fayden Maeleth, Flagon, Dheran Giles, Isadora Ironclaw, Heystack Ironhorse, Klin & Wyoh!

    So as you can see - The Vast Majority from lvl 3-17 have DV - The only change I'd like to see is I feel either Klin or Wyoh should have this ability as Ayron is insanely squishy even at level and basically useless once you can use a higher level hire!

    Of the None DV Clerics from Lvl 3-17 the only ones I still regularly use are:

    Erythyn - Superb Hireling AI
    Samuel Merrick - If Marissa's already in Party
    Isadora Ironclaw - Used to be amazing - Changes to Hireling weapons {she used to have Maladroit} have weakened her but not by much!

    There's also a small amount of FavSouls who I've found to be useful:

    Zaghar Everstar - He sits back and Heals - Better than either Flower or Laerathor and a country mile better than Fergus!
    Roshan - More HP and SP than either Fayden or Arkyn - If I don't need DV I'll take Ro over Arkyn any day of the week!
    Duerim Guardwell - Superb Hireling mainly because he's the first to have Mass Deathward!
    Larafay D'Orret - Oh come on - You didn't think I'd leave her out did ya?
    Merenon Lior - Still thinks he's a Tempest but about equal to Heystack all told.

    And Two Bards:

    Lairon Hester {Lvl 4} - Fantastic Healer Hirelings with Blur & Inspire Courage buffs too!
    Anthem {Lvl 6} - Useless in a fight but great for getting Ransack!


    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    There's no reason why you should have to run with an under-level hireling, just because the at-level ones lack some core ability you need. The hires should be differentiated by what "extra" skills they have, on top of their core toolbox - Implosion, Greater Command, etc. Deathward might be included on this list, as well, as a core ability.
    Aye - This would be great EXCEPT for the fact of Hireling AI - We absolutely MUST have the ability to tell them to use Heal/Res!

    The biggest problem for the Devs is Uniformity - Frankly I personally don't want EVERY SINGLE Cleric Hire to be exactly the same!
    And I was {and still am} extremely annoyed at the way the Devs went about fixing their Weapons - Basically taking the good ones away as well as the bad and giving them all exactly the same Mace {with random effect}.

    So we either need a second Hotbar for Hirelings OR we need to work out which ones should get what.

    I've given Nina Tegren {the Lvl 17 FvS} FoM and Mass Deathward instead of the worthless Prayer and Mass Aid BUT I am most definitely NOT asking for every single hire to have those two abilities!

    Let's take the Lvl 17 Cleric {Ayron Staliya} as our example -
    Currently she has DV III, Heal, Resurrection and Heal Mass - So giving Nina FoM and Mass Deathward would create an actual CHOICE!

    P.S. Maybe Ayron should lose Heal from her bar in favour of Cometfall so she has an offensive/CC option.
    She could then be told to cast Heal as her go to Spell whenever required by ANYONE in Party {We have the option to tell her to Mass Heal Instead!}.


    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    -Every cleric/FvS of high enough level should have automatic Quicken enabled. I get so tired of waiting for my cleric hire to rez me, only to have him constantly interrupted, and have to sit there spamming his hotbar over and over, especially when there's not an option for him to grab my stone and go somewhere else safer. Barring that, just give them crazy high Concentration - whatever they have currently is not enough.
    We can't get high enough Concentration - No point upping Hires to our levels as it still won't be enough!

    I say - Heck yeah to Quicken - This would help so much it's untrue!

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    -Hires with buffs on the hotbar should check to see if those buffs are active whenever they enter combat. Ie, if a Cleric has Prayer, whenever their aggro is tripped, they should check to see if you or they (or anyone else in party) needs a Prayer applied to them, and cast it if needed. Having to manually target and click buffs, especially short-term ones, means they pretty much never get used.
    Aaargh - They're AI is nowhere near good enough to account for this!

    Instead I've simply asked that they recast Short Term {and certain Long Term} buffs whenever they run down!
    And of course upon Shrining, Being Resurrected etc.
    Bards can do this with their songs {though usually when we're out of reach} and my Druid Wolf Rages whenever possible so why can't older hires?

    Oh and yeah as already said - Caraneth Myar {Lvl 19 FvS} used to do this with Implosion until Nerfed so I know it's possible!

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    -Every cleric of high enough level should have a rez spell, a heal spell, status restoration spells, and DV in their basic toolbox.
    I'd rather have a long-duration deathward than restoration.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Changes I'd like to see to Hirelings:

    DIVINES

    Lvl 6 - Arias should be given Radiant Burst instead of DV - Mareth Keeps DV
    Lvl 9 - Samuel Merrick should be given Radiant Burst instead of Summon Earth Ele
    Lvl 10 - Fayden Maeleth should be given Radiant Burst instead of Turn Undead

    All Hireling Clerics of Lvl 12 and up should be given Radiant Aura
    This should be In Addition to their 4 Abilities and used regularly!
    Also:
    -Lvl 12 - Flagon Moren should be given Radiant Burst instead of Cure Mod Mass

    -Flower - Is a Battle Cleric/Tank - Lose the Turn Undead ability which is terminally bugged for her!
    Replace with FoM

    Also Remove Summon Spider and Replace with Aid Mass

    -Fergus - Currently one of the most useless Hirelings in the game in my experience!
    Remove Dispel Magic and Summon Spider!
    Replace with FoM and DW

    -Lani Vesta - Has FoM but otherwise is all over the place!
    Remove Divine Power and Hold Person!
    Replace with DW and Lesser Restoration or Rem Disease

    Also Replace Cure Mod with Cure Serious!

    -Tazovir - Bard Lvl 10
    Remove Displacement
    Replace with FoM

    Roshan - FvS 11
    Remove Dispel Magic
    Replace with FoM

    Dheran Giles - Cleric 13 - Horrible Hireling
    Remove Greater Dispel
    Replace with FoM

    Skein - FvS 14
    Remove Recitation
    Replace with FoM

    Nina Tegren - FvS 17
    Remove Aid Mass and Prayer
    Replace with FoM and Mass Deathward

    Merenon Lior - FvS 18
    Remove Banishment
    Replace with FoM

    Caraneth Myar - FvS 19
    Remove Fire Storm and Summon Efreet
    Replace with Resurrection and Blade Barrier

    Also fix her DCs for Implosion/BB

    Tanya Brightstone, Skein, Larafay, Merenon, Caraneth, Selis and Andaro to be given AoV Shoulder Cannon
    Duerim, Althea, Nina, Albus, Luna and Brec to be given Bonus from Next FvS Prestige!
    Both of the above IN ADDITION to current 4 abilities!


    MELEES

    Unless other Stances stated assume Power Attack on permanently!

    Unless Stated otherwise Fighter, Paladin and Barb Hirelings should do their absolute best to be 5-10 ft AHEAD of Player Controller at ALL TIMES!

    Lvl 1 Barbs - Byron and Grommisk are too similar
    Move Grommisk to Lvl 2

    Lvl 6 - Kastinalia Windblossom - Ftr
    Replace Attack Boost I and Haste Boost I with Trip and Precision Stance
    Replace Intimidate with Combat Expertise Stance

    Lvl 7 - Syllix Giantbane - Ftr
    Replace Attack Boost I with Cleave

    Lvl 11 - Castle - Ftr {Far too similar to Lvl 10 - Anvil}
    Go Full Stalwart with:
    Stalwart Stance & Combat Expertise on Permanently
    Intimidate at will {NOT on Bar}
    AC Boost II, Improved Trip, Stunning Blow and Haste Boost II on Bar

    P.S. Spec for Bludgeon - Warhammer

    Lvl 13 - Murphy Athenry
    Go Full Stalwart
    See Castle but spec for Slashing and B-Swords

    Lvl 19 - Slash
    Go Full Kensai III with Greatsword
    Replace CE with Cleave
    Replace Intimidate with Great Cleave
    Replace Stunning Blow with Power Surge
    Keep Sunder

    Barbs Lvl 14-22
    Rage, Gorgal, Kern, Arnal - Frenzied Berzerker II
    Helga, Club, Sledge - FB III

    Considering the soon to be Occult Slayer - It might be an idea to pick a couple of these to be remade to suit.

    Paladin 19 - Uma Stonefist
    Replace Divine Favour and Virtue with Deathward and Stalwart Pact

    Assume Divine Favour and Prayer to be cast at start of quest and after shrining and recast upon Expiration until below 25% of Max Spell Points


    ARCANES

    Sorcs

    Lvl 1 = Pointless having TWO Sorcs at lvl 1 {Kurgal and Elizabeth} as there's a Wizard {Rillyn} available
    Move Kurgal to Lvl 2
    Remove Bluff and Diplomacy from his bar
    Assume Diplo used at will
    Replace on bar with Anger's Step Expeditious Retreat Clickie {2 uses per shrine of course}
    and Nightshield.

    Lvl 2 - Parthour the Lethargic - Move to Lvl 3

    Lvl 3 - Arianalla Eyes of Darkness - Move to Lvl 4
    Replace Magic Missile and Summon Poochy with Scorching Ray and Nightshield

    Lvl 4 - Tesztra - Move to lvl 5
    Replace Mage Armour with Nightshield
    IF she doesn't already have AC on Robe or Bracers - Fix it so she does!

    Lvl 5 - Therzith Gianthunter - Move to Lvl 6
    Give Acid Savant I
    Replace entire Bar with Acid Spray {Savant Ability}, Acid Blast, Web and Nightshield

    Lvl 6 - Azala Fireshaper - Move to Lvl 7
    Clearly Fire Savant - Give her the Prestige
    Bar is Fine as is

    Lvl 8 - Flare
    Fire Savant I

    Lvl 9 - Algaur
    Storm Savant I

    Lvl 11 - Aithas the Dour
    Acid Savant I
    Replace Firewall with Acid Rain
    Replace Prismatic Ray with Web
    Give him Heighten!

    Lvl 16 - For some reason we have two of them
    Drop Zefyn Kurimas to Lvl 14
    Replace Firewall with Ice Storm and go Ice Savant II
    Replace Flesh to Stone and Sunburst with Otiluke's Freezing Sphere and Fire Shield

    Mekwi Therzyl - Replace Horrid Wilting with Acid Rain and give him Acid Savant II

    Lvl 17 - Marisia - Go Ice Savant II
    Replace FoD and Haste with Otiluke's and Chain Lightning

    Lvl 18 - Antonio Craft - Give Him Ice Savant III

    Lvl 19 - Namisa Korclaw - Horrible Description implies Evil Hireling?
    Give her Fire Savant III

    Lvl 20 - Kaylen - Give Him Storm Savant III
    Replace Haste and Displacement with Chain Lightning and Mass Hold Monster
    Assume Haste and Displacement Self Cast continuously upon requirement until Below 25% SPs
    Assume Nightshield and Prot Elements cast at start of quest and after Shrining or Resurrection.

    Wizards

    Lvl 5 - Zeran Hamsterherder - BROKEN
    A Lvl 5 Wizard gets 2 {TWO} Lvl 3 Spells - Zeran has 3 of them on his BAR!
    Replace Haste with Web
    Replace Magic Missile {as I'm sure he's still casting Chain Missiles} with Scorching Ray

    Lvl 6 - Blast
    Give him Arch Mage I
    Replace Fireball with Repair Serious Wounds
    Replace Lightning Bolt with Heroism
    Spec for Acid and give him Acid Blast as his go to Spell not on Bar

    Lvl 7 - K'Zurth Q'arab - Teach him what HP are!
    Give him Arch Mage I
    Replace Enervation with Heroism
    Replace Frost Lance with Nightshield
    Spec for Fire and give him Scorching Ray as his go to Spell not on Bar

    Lvl 10 - Yrbildre Corpsebringer
    Give him Pale Master I
    Replace False Life, PK and Cloudkill with Zombie Stance, Highest Available Summoned Skelly and Acid Rain
    Assume Self Casting of Lesser Death Aura/Death Aura whenever necessary

    Lvl 11 - Toad
    Arch Mage II

    Lvl 12 - Keth'am Highwind
    Pale Master II
    Always in Wraith Form - Self Cast at start of quest, after resurrection and after Shrining!
    Assume Self Casting of Lesser Death Aura/Death Aura whenever Necessary

    Lvl 13 - Barrage
    Arch Mage III

    Lvl 14 - Sigil
    Arch Mage III
    Replace Scorching Ray with Reconstruct

    Lvl 17 - Nedry Smallfoot
    Pale Master always in Vamp Form - Self Cast at start of quest, after resurrection and after Shrining!
    Replace Reconstruct and Meteor Swarm with Hypnotism and Energy Drain
    Replace Firewall with Neg Energy Burst
    Assume Self Casting of Death Aura and Lesser Death Aura whenever necessary

    Lvl 18 - Lalisa Forestwing
    Give her Arch Mage V

    Lvl 19 - Darnis Spinethorn
    Give him Arch Mage V

    Lvl 20 - Ulga
    Give her Arch Mage V and Capstone Master of Magic
    Replace Sunburst with Greater Heroism

    Lvl 21 - Grobbin Halfhitch
    Arch Mage V, Capstone Master of Magic and Magister III
    Replace Mordenkainen's Disjunction with Otto's Sphere of Dancing
    Replace Dominate Monster with Energy Drain

    Lvl 22 - Lyvwen
    Arch Mage V, Capstone Master of Magic and Magister IV
    Replace Dominate Monster with Energy Drain

    Lvl 23 - Shael
    Lich Form Pale Master - Permanently in Form
    Capstone Master of Magic and Magister V
    Remove Power Words and Replace with Wail of the Banshee, Energy Drain and Death Aura
    Lesser Death Aura and Neg Energy Burst = Self Cast when required!

    Lvl 24 - Boltha Romagen
    Arch Mage V, Capstone Master of Magic and Magister V
    Remove Meteor Swarm and Mordenkainen's Disjunction and Replace with Chain Lightning {Fully Heightened, Maxed, Empowered!} and Greater Heroism {Extended}

    ROGUES seem fine as is Except for two:

    Lvl 5 - Kelorn Gossinar - BROKEN
    Seems to have Rogue Mech a lvl early
    Easy fix push him to Lvl 6

    Lvl 6 - Kirsten Steele - Acrobat
    Trap Skills need work!

    BARDS {Except for Tazovir who I've already mentioned and One other - see below} I'll leave as is

    Anthem - Lvl 6 Bard
    Absolutely adore that he seems to Hate Boxes with a Passion and will attack them over pretty much anything else!
    BUT
    He does tend to miss some!

    So...I suggest going all the way and making him a Box Breaker extraordinaire and a guaranteed Ransack Bonus - Basically you just need to speed him up and remind him that Sonic Blast will break boxes i.e. he doesn't need to use his Sword on each and every one!

    Oh and of course - Re-Spec him to Warchanter I

    There is no reason to change what abilities they have until the AI is fixed. The Hirelings don't need PRE abilities that would make them walking easy buttons IMO. Also FOM is not needed for every quest so not every cleric/FVS needs it.

  17. #17
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnziteBob View Post
    There is no reason to change what abilities they have until the AI is fixed. The Hirelings don't need PRE abilities that would make them walking easy buttons IMO. Also FOM is not needed for every quest so not every cleric/FVS needs it.
    I didn't say anything about giving FoM to EVERY Cleric/FvS!

    I distinctly picked out certain ones that should get it in place of USELESS abilities they currently have like Dispel Magic, greater Dispel Magic and Mass Aid!


    Many Hires {Most Rogues for instance} already have PREs - I'm only asking that the older hires be updated {oh and some of them were actually given PREs too - Lvl 20 Paladin - Vilgo for instance has Hunter of the Dead III: Greater Resto on His Bar!

    Fixing AI {and some of them still do have good AI in my view} is fraught with difficulties that swapping out one hotbar spell for another simply isn't.
    Fixing AI is a Long Term want I agree BUT in the meantime let's start with the simpler changes that would fix some of the less popular hirelings.

    And in my view - Every Cleric Hireling that Does NOT have DV is at a huge disadvantage and should be given an ability that makes them a viable alternative!

    Tempys Lorben is one of the best Cleric hirelings in the game because he has not one but two of the most sought after abilities - Mass Deathward and DV - on top of Heal and Raise Dead!

    On the other hand - at that same level you have the WF FS Skein - Who's current abilities are Raise Dead, Greater Resto, Heal and Recitation.
    Skein is a Greatsword wielding LoB FvS so I can see why the Devs gave him Recitation
    BUT
    I feel that this is nowhere near enough to make him a viable alternative to Tempys {or even to the Lvl 13 FvS - Duerim}.

    Giving him FoM on the other hand would immediately make him much more popular amongst players who can't get that buff / haven't got Kundarak Delving Boots i.e. Most of us!

  18. #18

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    Has anyone done testing on Lamannia to see if they changed with the enhancement pass?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Aye - This would be great EXCEPT for the fact of Hireling AI - We absolutely MUST have the ability to tell them to use Heal/Res!

    The biggest problem for the Devs is Uniformity - Frankly I personally don't want EVERY SINGLE Cleric Hire to be exactly the same!

    ...

    Instead I've simply asked that they recast Short Term {and certain Long Term} buffs whenever they run down!
    No I dont want them all to just be Level N Cleric Hireling either...but if they could DV you automatically (like when you're at 75% blue bar, or when party member is at 50% or below, no more than once every 20 seconds, say), then every cleric's 4 hotkeys could be a Heal spell, a Rez spell, and then two "flavor" options. Deathward might just be a very common 1st "flavor", with the second being the spot for Cometfall/Summon Monster IX/Implosion.

    And that's the obvious answer - just have them keep everything up 100% of the time - except that'd drain their mana waaaay too fast, especially if I tab over to another window (eg the forum?) for a couple minutes, and my hireling is sitting there casting Haste and Displacement on my character every 30 seconds. Thats why I suggested just adding a buff-check to their script when they go from "aggro=0" to "aggro=1", just like caster monsters like Wight Priests who buff themselves up with Prayer when you aggro them.

  20. #20
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    No I dont want them all to just be Level N Cleric Hireling either...but if they could DV you automatically (like when you're at 75% blue bar, or when party member is at 50% or below, no more than once every 20 seconds, say), then every cleric's 4 hotkeys could be a Heal spell, a Rez spell, and then two "flavor" options. Deathward might just be a very common 1st "flavor", with the second being the spot for Cometfall/Summon Monster IX/Implosion.

    And that's the obvious answer - just have them keep everything up 100% of the time - except that'd drain their mana waaaay too fast, especially if I tab over to another window (eg the forum?) for a couple minutes, and my hireling is sitting there casting Haste and Displacement on my character every 30 seconds. Thats why I suggested just adding a buff-check to their script when they go from "aggro=0" to "aggro=1", just like caster monsters like Wight Priests who buff themselves up with Prayer when you aggro them.
    Hirelings do have some limited A.I. abilities to recognize when sp is low and to restore it. All you have to do is watch them chug all their mana pots down right after the first encounter in a quest, when they have used 10% of their sp.
    That being said, i don't mind having to use the dv ability from their hotbar. It's something i only do out of combat, and if there are multiple bluebars in a group, you may want to tell them who to use it on.

    To the op: I agree, there are not enough hirelings in the game who have the freedom of movement spell. Another problem with epic hires in particular is that none of them have deathward. I always have to use Albus in epic levels to get this ability, which is strange, because so many of the heroic hires do have this spell.

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