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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    No, the two exceptions I originally listed when detailing what is random or named were correct.

    There's a point where I need to decide it's best to give you guys less detail because it only serves to muddy the waters.
    It's the lack of detail that muddies the waters.

    By pushing you for an explanation of the logic behind things we can all understand where the exceptions lie.

    You've now helped clarify that it's not a simple matter of Random versus Named and that random effect items like Thaumaturgy can be excluded.

    We're sticklers for detail here

    So what other random items are excluded from the automatic ML scripting?

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Over a year ago, YOU specifically said that Risia crafting only works on Random items. At the time, that excluded Cannith Crafted items because they were NAMED items. Does this now mean our Cannith Crafted items can now get Icy Burst?
    Nobody has talked about cannith crafted items in this thread except you. Cannith challenge items <> Cannith crafted items. You responded to a post of Feather's talking about challenge items, not crafted items.


    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Winning Hearts and Minds I see.

    This new line about items be Craftable as something separate from Random and Named is new. You didn't bring this up a year ago. You just stated that NAMED items can't recieve Risia Crafting. If you stated this stuff about Craftable items being a separate category from both Named and Random back then, I won't have brought up the freaking question.
    They explained exactly that last year.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Winning Hearts and Minds I see.
    Truth hurts.

    This new line about items be Craftable as something separate from Random and Named is new. You didn't bring this up a year ago. You just stated that NAMED items can't recieve Risia Crafting. If you stated this stuff about Craftable items being a separate category from both Named and Random back then, I won't have brought up the freaking question.
    Well, all you had to do is place a craftable item into the Risia alter, and you would have had your answer. Placing a Cannith Challenge item in the same alter as well gives the same error (since most of them can be crafted on).

    Not sure where hounding a Dev and assuming he is at fault comes into play here.
    Last edited by NytCrawlr; 08-14-2013 at 01:17 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Nobody has talked about cannith crafted items in this thread except you. Cannith challenge items <> Cannith crafted items. You responded to a post of Feather's talking about challenge items, not crafted items.


    They explained exactly that last year.
    I was trying to clear the Risia crafting thing up. Yes, it was a bit of an aside, but I got my answer this time, until like year. It was stated clearly that there was three systems of gear that are treated differently prior to now: Named, Random and Craftable. Craftable had been hinted at and usually treated in posts as part of one of the other systems before. It was never stated clearly that it was a wholly separate system.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    Considering how many "Named" items have "Random" properties on them now, I'm sure you understand how people could be a bit confused.
    ^^ This.

    This a lot.

  6. #66
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    Bumping 'cause I'm hoping Feather will clue us in about BTA/BTCoE effecting total "+ value."
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 08-15-2013 at 03:48 PM.
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katie_Seaglen View Post
    Wow. I mean, it seems like you would have to go out of your way to actually mess up that bad.
    Data may be in an array, and a miswritten index is all it would take.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    If we could somehow track and exempt them, we would do so- however, this is a global change to how items in DDO function. These items have nothing unique about them that we can check or otherwise track in order to exempt them from how item level is now set.
    Really simple to do:
    Take snapshot of live database of items, record currentML of each item (how ever the current live game gets that - it has to be in there somewhere), use new code to generate newML. If currentML < newML, flag item for exemption.
    Author of Info Blue UI Skin (Really wish Turbine would update the skinning interface and enable all the new UI parts.)
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  9. #69
    Community Member Tscheuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backley View Post
    Really simple to do:
    Take snapshot of live database of items, record currentML of each item (how ever the current live game gets that - it has to be in there somewhere), use new code to generate newML. If currentML < newML, flag item for exemption.
    That is another way. The point is to approach the problem as a db admin rather than a dev, because it's all about the data.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    You can also check here for some assistance with this type of question:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_fallacy
    You never learn do you? Do you also understand that when you post anything here you represent Turbine? I don't care if it's a joke, sarcasm or if you meant it. On some level you are going to insult, **** off or alienate a paying or potential customer. Irregardless of whether or not Turbine as a company condones or tolerates this, it is universally accepted as bad buisness practice and a marker of poor decision making.

    And to those who say his posting on the forums is optional: I know this but it's not an excuse. Period.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    You never learn do you? Do you also understand that when you post anything here you represent Turbine? I don't care if it's a joke, sarcasm or if you meant it. On some level you are going to insult, **** off or alienate a paying or potential customer. Irregardless of whether or not Turbine as a company condones or tolerates this, it is universally accepted as bad buisness practice and a marker of poor decision making.

    And to those who say his posting on the forums is optional: I know this but it's not an excuse. Period.
    I actually don't mind a dev having a go.

    We dish it out, we should be able to take it.

    I'm more than happy to argue the toss till I'm blue in the face and then buy the guy a pint afterwards whatever the outcome.

    And I'm more argumentative and pedantic than most so that could be a lot of pints

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    I actually don't mind a dev having a go.

    We dish it out, we should be able to take it.

    I'm more than happy to argue the toss till I'm blue in the face and then buy the guy a pint afterwards whatever the outcome.

    And I'm more argumentative and pedantic than most so that could be a lot of pints
    And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If I happened to just meet Feather at a bar/pub and as a stranger we were debating something, I'd do the exact same thing. But in the context of a business talking to customer - making, insinuating or otherwise giving the appearance of superiority over the customer/client (condescending is how I see it), whether intentional or not is generally accepted as bad practice. Now if this was just a incidental slip of tongue I wouldn't have a problem with it. But leading up to MotU last year Feather was doing the same thing. And I said the same thing back then. Here's one thread with some examples.:

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...00#post4452900

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If I happened to just meet Feather at a bar/pub and as a stranger we were debating something, I'd do the exact same thing. But in the context of a business talking to customer - making, insinuating or otherwise giving the appearance of superiority over the customer/client (condescending is how I see it), whether intentional or not is generally accepted as bad practice. Now if this was just a incidental slip of tongue I wouldn't have a problem with it. But leading up to MotU last year Feather was doing the same thing. And I said the same thing back then. Here's one thread with some examples.:

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...00#post4452900
    If you dish it out, be prepared to take it is all I can say. I dish it out and I'm happy to be called on it. If Feather is happy to dish it out then he better be prepared to take it, because we will call him on any slip ups. We're caring that way

    What it does make me wonder though in the link you provided was from the discussion on handwraps:

    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_Of_Sun View Post
    -Newly generated random handwraps use the same item effects that other weapon types do (No more of the goofy implementation that had to put the effect on the wearer). Behind the scenes, this means that there'll be less instances of things that work on melee weapons but not handwraps.
    So we've known for a while that for whatever reasons, handwraps were created in a weird way that they apply the effects to the wearer rather than it being an effect on the item. And this has caused numerous problems in the past.

    But from this quote, random generated handwraps were "fixed" to be the same as others. Or maybe that should be Random generated?

    So I'm surprised that we're going live now with the situation where handwraps will have a higher ML than other weapon base types and racial restrictions won't reduce the ML by 2 as they do elsewhere.

    Two reason that I'm surprised by this:
    1. If handwraps were "standardised" to be the same as other weapons then why has this came up in the first place? My answer to this is that they're not fully standardised.
    2. If handwraps weren't able to be fully standardised then why were handwraps not specifically tested in full knowledge that they have a history of anomalies that get reported on the forums? My answer to this is a failure in the process to review the "Lessons Learned" that feeds into your development plan and your QA test plan.

    Now I'm sure that it'll all be fixed in the first patch, and I'm sure that the devs have had their hands full with a lot of other stuff, but I don't accept "we were busy" as an excuse from my developers, so I'm not inclined to accept it as an excuse for this oversight either. Equally, I'm not saying we should tar and feather any of the devs for this. But lets not blow smoke up their ass either. Something got overlooked. It shouldn't have. Learn from it. Do better next time.

    EDIT: And we still don't have a list of Random items that are excluded from the automatic ML calculation script in the way that Thaumaturgy staffs are.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    If you dish it out, be prepared to take it is all I can say. I dish it out and I'm happy to be called on it. If Feather is happy to dish it out then he better be prepared to take it, because we will call him on any slip ups. We're caring that way


    If I was talking to a friend then this applies for me. Feather is not my friend. He's a guy who works on a game that I pay to play. I don't know him, he doesn't know me. This is what gets a lot of people in trouble in the work place. Everywhere I have ever worked, at the companies I used to own, employees were required to be the utmost professional at all times when dealing with any client/potential client, irregardless of the situation, their position within the company or their title. I have seen people reprimanded for not abiding by this and on occasion seen some people fired for it (by no means am I even suggesting anything of the sort here). And our conversation just proves why this is needed. Everyone will view things differently. And if you always put forth the most professional face, you avoid any situation that could be taken the wrong way.

    And regarding hand wraps, I've given up trying to listen to anything said about them. We've heard about 4 different explanations of the years as to why they were broken or fixed or fixed and then broken...and there's no way to tell which on is actually the case

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    If I was talking to a friend then this applies for me. Feather is not my friend. He's a guy who works on a game that I pay to play. I don't know him, he doesn't know me. This is what gets a lot of people in trouble in the work place. Everywhere I have ever worked, at the companies I used to own, employees were required to be the utmost professional at all times when dealing with any client/potential client, irregardless of the situation, their position within the company or their title. I have seen people reprimanded for not abiding by this and on occasion seen some people fired for it (by no means am I even suggesting anything of the sort here). And our conversation just proves why this is needed. Everyone will view things differently. And if you always put forth the most professional face, you avoid any situation that could be taken the wrong way.
    If you want respect, give it. If you want to receive civility, speak civilly. If you want to go on a video game forum and be freaking snide, rude and/or antagonistic to employees because you don't like their decisions, and expect do so with zero reciprocity get over your self.

    The bar I go to has a low tollerance for customer abuse of it's employees. Someone hassles a waitress, bartender tells him "gtfo" and if a further scene develops, he calls the bouncer (which in mmo parlance would be the ban hammer). Collectively we "customers" speak horribly to our game reps, and fling entirely too much poo at them; It's about time they flung some back.

    Sorry all for the OT rant, but had to be said.
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  16. #76
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    Hey Feather, a couple questions, if you would...

    1) Will the BTA nature of some random loot end rewards effect total + value?

    2) What about the BTCoE nature of some random loot rewards?
    •For example: I have a min lvl 6 BTCoE +1 Flaming Burst Great Sword of Lacerating. Did/will the binding status effect total + value?

    3) Any other random loot exceptions we might/ought to be aware of like the Thaumaturgy Staves?

    Ounce of prevention, pound of cure & all that... Thanks in advance!
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Hey Feather, a couple questions, if you would...

    1) Will the BTA nature of some random loot end rewards effect total + value?

    2) What about the BTCoE nature of some random loot rewards?
    •For example: I have a min lvl 6 BTCoE +1 Flaming Burst Great Sword of Lacerating. Did/will the binding status effect total + value?

    3) Any other random loot exceptions we might/ought to be aware of like the Thaumaturgy Staves?

    Ounce of prevention, pound of cure & all that... Thanks in advance!
    I think all of the btcoe random loot is newish. I have yet to come across any that has bugged minimum levels. It's easy to tell if an item has a bugged minimum level. Take the potential number in the right corner, double it, then subtract one. This should give you the minimum level of the item. I guess it is an additionaly level lower if it is a weapon. If the minimum level varies significantly from this, it's bugged.

    There are some named items in the tangleroot chain which give plus 3 stat bonuses at level 5. This used to be lower than random loot, and was the same as crafted loot. When they standardized it the last time, this was no longer the case. So those named items became in no way better than random lootgen.

    The bound to account items that you are talking about are most likely going to be standardized. Meaning, if they have a plus level visible in the upper right corner, then it's going to follow the new formula. Personally, i had never noticed that they have low mimimum levels, because like all other low level lootgen, it never occurred to me to actually use it. If this change would somehow make it possible for them to spawn with augment slots on them, it would be well worth the tradeoff, IMO.
    r
    Thaumaturgy staves are different than all other things, since some of the effects on them show up in the total item potential, but don't count toward the minimum level. You may not however, that none of the individual effects will be more powerful than what could be available at the minimum level on the stick. They just have a few extra ones that are 'under the table'.

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