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  1. #1
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Default Devs, Kensei Status: One week before expansion launch - FIX ASAP

    So, we're a week away from launch and seems like kensei still has the following problems:

    A) Shattering Strike retains its wisdom based usefulness despite being a requirement toward upper tier enhancements. FAIL

    B) Deadly strike/shot are both massively underpowered for being a tier 5 enhancement AND a requirement toward one with the blade. Scoring a critical hit at will isn't that special considering that crits are landed all the time. FAIL

    C) Fighter tactics and extra action boosts are expensive with respect to their counterparts in other trees (e.g., extra action boosts in barbarian tree are 1 AP each. Extra tactics in dwarven tree are 1 ap each, both of these enhancements are 2 points per tier in the kensei tree. Why?) FAIL

    D) Spiritual bond is plainly weird. the wording is complicated, and doesn't seem to work very well. Please test this and simplify the functionality, its broken. Bug reporting this does nothing apparently, so I won't be doing it again. Read this post and look into it devs, thanks.

    E) Weapon meditation: 2 AP/tier is expensive. The first and second tier never allow the stack to reach 10 on the weapon. Broken and useless. FAIL

    F) Vorpal strikes shares a cooldown with action boosts. Useless. FAIL

    G) After selecting a weapon specialty, I don't need to keep clicking that weapon group for each tier. Its already understood what weapon my specialty is in, since all other choices are blocked out. Stop making me click on it each time, its annoying. FAIL

    H) Critical accuracy is still a horrifying pre-requisite toward a good death, which actually is one of the nicer abilities in the tree. Can't get it because critical accuracy plagues my precious AP's, and critical damage is ridiculously expensive - all of which cause me to avoid that entire upper left corner of the kensei tree. FAIL

    I) Weapon focus, Greater Weapon focus, and Weapon specialization are all requirements that haven't been improved in power or removed entirely. Still requires 8 levels of fighter to reach tier 5 because of these feat restrictions. MASSIVE FAIL

    The tree has been butchered, and no corrections seem to be on the horizon. What a shame...

    The only good thing that has been done to this tree is allowing us to choose between haste boost and attack boost. That was pretty awesome, but thats it.

    Fighter levels 13+ need to provide a carrot. I don't know what to suggest that would be balanced within a weeks time frame, but the heavy splashing fighters will experience is inevitable. Keep that in mind as you go forward.

    Devs, you want feedback. Here it is. Lets hear your thoughts on these now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Fighter levels 13+ need to provide a carrot. I don't know what to suggest that would be balanced within a weeks time frame, but the heavy splashing fighters will experience is inevitable. Keep that in mind as you go forward.
    I'm surprised most these issues haven't been addressed, especially anything good in the capstone. I think I recall a developer saying that they were gonna make pure builds just as useful as multiclass builds, or something along that line. I wonder where that idea went.

  3. #3
    Community Member count_spicoli's Avatar
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    ya fighter has been butchered from the get go. They don't want you playing them. They are f2p. Same goes with sorc barb and pally. hacked up. monk and arti look great tho. ya it butchers a couple of my kensaii builds bad.

  4. #4
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by count_spicoli View Post
    ya fighter has been butchered from the get go. They don't want you playing them. They are f2p. Same goes with sorc barb and pally. hacked up. monk and arti look great tho. ya it butchers a couple of my kensaii builds bad.
    Hanlon's Razor

    I don't think there is any malice toward f2p classes, I just think the dev's don't play them and don't understand them and thus can't design anything well for them.

  5. #5
    Community Member MrWindupBird's Avatar
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    Default This is not a Kensei-specific problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    So, we're a week away from launch and seems like kensei still has the following problems:

    A) Shattering Strike retains its wisdom based usefulness despite being a requirement toward upper tier enhancements. FAIL

    B) Deadly strike/shot are both massively underpowered for being a tier 5 enhancement AND a requirement toward one with the blade. Scoring a critical hit at will isn't that special considering that crits are landed all the time. FAIL

    C) Fighter tactics and extra action boosts are expensive with respect to their counterparts in other trees (e.g., extra action boosts in barbarian tree are 1 AP each. Extra tactics in dwarven tree are 1 ap each, both of these enhancements are 2 points per tier in the kensei tree. Why?) FAIL

    D) Spiritual bond is plainly weird. the wording is complicated, and doesn't seem to work very well. Please test this and simplify the functionality, its broken. Bug reporting this does nothing apparently, so I won't be doing it again. Read this post and look into it devs, thanks.

    E) Weapon meditation: 2 AP/tier is expensive. The first and second tier never allow the stack to reach 10 on the weapon. Broken and useless. FAIL

    F) Vorpal strikes shares a cooldown with action boosts. Useless. FAIL

    G) After selecting a weapon specialty, I don't need to keep clicking that weapon group for each tier. Its already understood what weapon my specialty is in, since all other choices are blocked out. Stop making me click on it each time, its annoying. FAIL

    H) Critical accuracy is still a horrifying pre-requisite toward a good death, which actually is one of the nicer abilities in the tree. Can't get it because critical accuracy plagues my precious AP's, and critical damage is ridiculously expensive - all of which cause me to avoid that entire upper left corner of the kensei tree. FAIL

    I) Weapon focus, Greater Weapon focus, and Weapon specialization are all requirements that haven't been improved in power or removed entirely. Still requires 8 levels of fighter to reach tier 5 because of these feat restrictions. MASSIVE FAIL

    The tree has been butchered, and no corrections seem to be on the horizon. What a shame...

    The only good thing that has been done to this tree is allowing us to choose between haste boost and attack boost. That was pretty awesome, but thats it.

    Fighter levels 13+ need to provide a carrot. I don't know what to suggest that would be balanced within a weeks time frame, but the heavy splashing fighters will experience is inevitable. Keep that in mind as you go forward.

    Devs, you want feedback. Here it is. Lets hear your thoughts on these now.
    I think these threads are a little hard to parse without an explicit basis of comparison. For example, the kensei tree for a pure 20 fighter is definitely much stronger post-enhancement pass than before (I can provide details if you want, but this is very easily verifiable and it isn't close), and it was a middlingly strong tree before, in my opinion. But where does that pure 20 kensei lie in comparison to the other 12kensei/x possibilities? That's a much harder question.

    I think all the melee trees are stronger than before, which is great. However, the problem with the new system is that the only reason to go above 5-6 lvls in a class is, A. core tree unlocks, or B. class-granted feats which have nothing to do with the enhancement system. For a class like fighter, literally the only thing you get for going more levels is feats, which you can also get by splashing monk or ranger (if TWF/ranged option). So, here the weakness of the high-level core-enhancements is starkly evident: they are the ONLY opportunity cost for splashing into other classes, which are often front-loaded (monk, ranger, pally, fighter, rogue are all very good now as a 2-6 splash) and can offer quite a lot.

    This isnt a problem unique to fighter: I'd argue that every melee class can get both more damage and more utility out of splashing that remaining pure, at the moment. Monks are rangers present viable exceptions to my mind: rangers have a good capstone in Tempest, and can get significant efficient self-healing out of 20 ranger (without wasting a twist on cocoon), while monks get increased unarmed damage and some additional class abilities for staying pure, although they have lousy 18/20 core enhancements.

    Spellcasting classes don't face this foregone-splash cost of going pure very strongly, since they get caster levels and access to new spells with further class levels. If wizards had their caster levels and spell selection maxed out at level 12, then they would be in the same position as melee, but that's the fundamental difference.


    Cetus has some good points re: particular problems/bugs with the tree (Spiritual bond/vorpal strikes in particular), but the tree itself is fine, and I feel one of the strongest trees. The problem is endemic to the new enhancement system, and shared by pretty much all the melee trees- if you're not getting class-granted feats beyond level 6, the only thing pushing you to take more class levels is the core enhancements. Consequently, the melee 12/18/20 core enhancements should be considerably stronger than those in spellcasting trees.

    This isn't an indictment of the changes, it's just a reflection of the strength and availability of the new enhancements, and how this encourages multiclassing for melees. I'm not unhappy with the changes, I'm looking forward to playing around with the possibilities more, and a huge part of DDO's draw for me has always been the character building options, which I find that the enhancement pass has expanded.

    However, the current reality is that pure-class melees are relatively underpowered, and I will be changing my character builds to reflect this.

  6. #6
    Community Member ZeebaNeighba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWindupBird View Post
    Consequently, the melee 12/18/20 core enhancements should be considerably stronger than those in spellcasting trees.
    It would also be nice to see the capstones as easy to get as they are on live, where all you have to do is stay pure and spend 2 points. An awesome capstone doesn't mean squat if we don't have the 40 points for it, as the case is with some of my builds.

  7. #7
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWindupBird View Post
    I think these threads are a little hard to parse without an explicit basis of comparison. For example, the kensei tree for a pure 20 fighter is definitely much stronger post-enhancement pass than before (I can provide details if you want, but this is very easily verifiable and it isn't close), and it was a middlingly strong tree before, in my opinion. But where does that pure 20 kensei lie in comparison to the other 12kensei/x possibilities? That's a much harder question.

    I think all the melee trees are stronger than before, which is great. However, the problem with the new system is that the only reason to go above 5-6 lvls in a class is, A. core tree unlocks, or B. class-granted feats which have nothing to do with the enhancement system. For a class like fighter, literally the only thing you get for going more levels is feats, which you can also get by splashing monk or ranger (if TWF/ranged option). So, here the weakness of the high-level core-enhancements is starkly evident: they are the ONLY opportunity cost for splashing into other classes, which are often front-loaded (monk, ranger, pally, fighter, rogue are all very good now as a 2-6 splash) and can offer quite a lot.

    This isnt a problem unique to fighter: I'd argue that every melee class can get both more damage and more utility out of splashing that remaining pure, at the moment. Monks are rangers present viable exceptions to my mind: rangers have a good capstone in Tempest, and can get significant efficient self-healing out of 20 ranger (without wasting a twist on cocoon), while monks get increased unarmed damage and some additional class abilities for staying pure, although they have lousy 18/20 core enhancements.

    Spellcasting classes don't face this foregone-splash cost of going pure very strongly, since they get caster levels and access to new spells with further class levels. If wizards had their caster levels and spell selection maxed out at level 12, then they would be in the same position as melee, but that's the fundamental difference.


    Cetus has some good points re: particular problems/bugs with the tree (Spiritual bond/vorpal strikes in particular), but the tree itself is fine, and I feel one of the strongest trees. The problem is endemic to the new enhancement system, and shared by pretty much all the melee trees- if you're not getting class-granted feats beyond level 6, the only thing pushing you to take more class levels is the core enhancements. Consequently, the melee 12/18/20 core enhancements should be considerably stronger than those in spellcasting trees.

    This isn't an indictment of the changes, it's just a reflection of the strength and availability of the new enhancements, and how this encourages multiclassing for melees. I'm not unhappy with the changes, I'm looking forward to playing around with the possibilities more, and a huge part of DDO's draw for me has always been the character building options, which I find that the enhancement pass has expanded.

    However, the current reality is that pure-class melees are relatively underpowered, and I will be changing my character builds to reflect this.
    Good post, but I disagree with your fundamental perspective. You're looking at the fighter tree in comparison to the other trees, I'm looking at the fighter tree simply for what it is right now, pointing out the flaws, and hoping for an upgrade regardless of what the other trees look like.
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  8. #8
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    Default Greater Weapon Focus Feat

    It's unfortunate that the Greater Weapon Focus Feat was never removed despite it's obvious contradiction with the tree class level requirement. When launching a completely revised enhancement system, why go live with this structural oversight? Many players have raised the issue in the forums, took the time to provide detailed feedback surveys, submit bug reports, and even participate in live Dev sessions. If all those mediums aren't sufficient to warrant a revision, then what will?

    Perhaps Rowan can take the time to weigh in on this one.

  9. #9
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronThrone View Post
    It's unfortunate that the Greater Weapon Focus Feat was never removed despite it's obvious contradiction with the tree class level requirement. When launching a completely revised enhancement system, why go live with this structural oversight? Many players have raised the issue in the forums, took the time to provide detailed feedback surveys, submit bug reports, and even participate in live Dev sessions. If all those mediums aren't sufficient to warrant a revision, then what will?

    Perhaps Rowan can take the time to weigh in on this one.
    Jokes aside about my wanted to QP stuff with my ESoS . . . I strongly suspect this is intentional and not going to change.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Hanlon's Razor

    I don't think there is any malice toward f2p classes, I just think the dev's don't play them and don't understand them and thus can't design anything well for them.
    Yeah, look at druid, probably the worst trees in the whole update. celerity is 15 seconds every 5 minutes. Alpha strike uses a wild empathy so amounts to maybe 300 damage every rest (and costs SP!)... Herald isn't much better.


    There are some oddities in Kensai like every other tree, but all-in-all it's quite strong. Kensai will be my primary tree on what is now my paladin (and has been a paladin for over three years). Everyone needs a hobby horse though I suppose and it's true that the lack of AP cost consistency and pointless requirements (e.g. weapon focus) plague the system in many places.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post

    There are some oddities in Kensai like every other tree, but all-in-all it's quite strong. Kensai will be my primary tree on what is now my paladin (and has been a paladin for over three years).
    Funny you should mention that. My paladin is going 12f/4m/4p when the update hits. I expect it to be anything but underpowered.

    There are parts of the tree that need improvement, however.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 08-13-2013 at 05:13 PM.

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    There is always the possibility that we have not yet seen the final U19 version on Lamma. Producer Rowan said it was finished, he didnt say it was the build we have already seen. Plus, just like the changes in U14, there could always be fixes planned for the first patch. For U14 that came about 2 weeks after.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    Funny you should mention that. My paladin is going 12f/4m/4p when the update hits. I expect it to be anything but underpowered.

    There are parts of the tree that need improvement, however.
    Yup, same idea, though I'm still debating whether I want power surge, shadow fade, or a T1 twist (turn undead) more.
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  14. #14
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZgreentea View Post
    There is always the possibility that we have not yet seen the final U19 version on Lamma. Producer Rowan said it was finished, he didnt say it was the build we have already seen. Plus, just like the changes in U14, there could always be fixes planned for the first patch. For U14 that came about 2 weeks after.
    I hope so, but every time I go along with a positive "what if" scenario, I set myself up for disappointment.

    If I zero in on the splash vs. pure issue (there are many other issues outlined in the OP in addition to this...namely useless enhancements within kensei and the weapon focus tragedy), then giving level 18 fighters regenerating boosts and level 20's a mass stunning blow effect would change my build plans over night.

    just sayin', if the devs want to rectify the 12 fighter / 6 monk / 2 Paladin Conspiracy expansion pack, thats how you do it. And that'll do it in a heartbeat.

    Remember still, mass stunning blow sounds like ZOMG powerful, but giving it to pure fighters eliminates divine might splash, which would be a major tactics DC hit. That would force fighters to take all the tactics they can, given that the saves of EE mobs in new content is challenging. Then, dwarven and warforged builds might surface because of their tactics bonuses.

    See what happens...
    Last edited by Cetus; 08-13-2013 at 07:27 PM.
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  15. #15
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    Yup, same idea, though I'm still debating whether I want power surge, shadow fade, or a T1 twist (turn undead) more.
    Yeah deciding how to split those classes is tough. Wanting as much healing amp as possible with dual Nightmares and light monk healing shield is what has motivated me into my slightly wonky class split.

  16. #16
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZgreentea View Post
    There is always the possibility that we have not yet seen the final U19 version on Lamma. Producer Rowan said it was finished, he didnt say it was the build we have already seen. Plus, just like the changes in U14, there could always be fixes planned for the first patch. For U14 that came about 2 weeks after.
    This is such a wrong way to approach the Alpha and the Beta tests.

    Everytime someone of us reports something and just give its own feedbacks, there always will someone like you ready to say "but this is alpha, they will change it" -"this is beta, in one month they will change it" - "but there is still one week, they might change it". Guess what: Cetuss posted this exact same thread thrice, in alpha and in beta twice, starting from here (note the date: 6-30-2013) and while some minor things are changed, the major issues are still there.

    This Enhancement Pass has been a mess.

    They should change things as soon as possible, not one week before release.

    /end offtopic
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  17. #17
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWindupBird View Post
    I think these threads are a little hard to parse without an explicit basis of comparison. For example, the kensei tree for a pure 20 fighter is definitely much stronger post-enhancement pass than before (I can provide details if you want, but this is very easily verifiable and it isn't close), and it was a middlingly strong tree before, in my opinion. But where does that pure 20 kensei lie in comparison to the other 12kensei/x possibilities? That's a much harder question.

    I think all the melee trees are stronger than before, which is great. However, the problem with the new system is that the only reason to go above 5-6 lvls in a class is, A. core tree unlocks, or B. class-granted feats which have nothing to do with the enhancement system. For a class like fighter, literally the only thing you get for going more levels is feats, which you can also get by splashing monk or ranger (if TWF/ranged option). So, here the weakness of the high-level core-enhancements is starkly evident: they are the ONLY opportunity cost for splashing into other classes, which are often front-loaded (monk, ranger, pally, fighter, rogue are all very good now as a 2-6 splash) and can offer quite a lot.

    This isnt a problem unique to fighter: I'd argue that every melee class can get both more damage and more utility out of splashing that remaining pure, at the moment. Monks are rangers present viable exceptions to my mind: rangers have a good capstone in Tempest, and can get significant efficient self-healing out of 20 ranger (without wasting a twist on cocoon), while monks get increased unarmed damage and some additional class abilities for staying pure, although they have lousy 18/20 core enhancements.

    Spellcasting classes don't face this foregone-splash cost of going pure very strongly, since they get caster levels and access to new spells with further class levels. If wizards had their caster levels and spell selection maxed out at level 12, then they would be in the same position as melee, but that's the fundamental difference.


    Cetus has some good points re: particular problems/bugs with the tree (Spiritual bond/vorpal strikes in particular), but the tree itself is fine, and I feel one of the strongest trees. The problem is endemic to the new enhancement system, and shared by pretty much all the melee trees- if you're not getting class-granted feats beyond level 6, the only thing pushing you to take more class levels is the core enhancements. Consequently, the melee 12/18/20 core enhancements should be considerably stronger than those in spellcasting trees.

    This isn't an indictment of the changes, it's just a reflection of the strength and availability of the new enhancements, and how this encourages multiclassing for melees. I'm not unhappy with the changes, I'm looking forward to playing around with the possibilities more, and a huge part of DDO's draw for me has always been the character building options, which I find that the enhancement pass has expanded.

    However, the current reality is that pure-class melees are relatively underpowered, and I will be changing my character builds to reflect this.
    Although this would not help Non shield bearing Fighters or Paladins this is precisely why I would have lowered the requirements for core level 20 to 35-37 points in a tree. That way a character could more easily qualify for 2 core level 20 abilities. That would balance this better for pure builds vs. multiclasses. For classes that only have two trees they clearly need to add a third. I do have to say that my pure level 20 warchanter healing bard is definitly going to be getting core level 20s in spellsinger and warchanter, but that requires 82 points spent in warchanter and spellsinger trees with only 2 points left over for racial so painful for sure.
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  18. #18
    2015 DDO Players Council B0ltdrag0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Although this would not help Non shield bearing Fighters or Paladins this is precisely why I would have lowered the requirements for core level 20 to 35-37 points in a tree. That way a character could more easily qualify for 2 core level 20 abilities. That would balance this better for pure builds vs. multiclasses. For classes that only have two trees they clearly need to add a third. I do have to say that my pure level 20 warchanter healing bard is definitly going to be getting core level 20s in spellsinger and warchanter, but that requires 82 points spent in warchanter and spellsinger trees with only 2 points left over for racial so painful for sure.

    I am intrigued and skeptical at your ability to have 84 AP when only 80 is available.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    So, we're a week away from launch and seems like kensei still has the following problems:

    C) Fighter tactics and extra action boosts are expensive with respect to their counterparts in other trees (e.g., extra action boosts in barbarian tree are 1 AP each. Extra tactics in dwarven tree are 1 ap each, both of these enhancements are 2 points per tier in the kensei tree. Why?) FAIL

    H) Critical accuracy is still a horrifying pre-requisite toward a good death, which actually is one of the nicer abilities in the tree. Can't get it because critical accuracy plagues my precious AP's, and critical damage is ridiculously expensive - all of which cause me to avoid that entire upper left corner of the kensei tree. FAIL
    Reducing costs of Tactics and Extra Action Boosts to 1 AP per tier would free up 6 AP for Critical Accuracy/Damage. While I understand the rational of Critical Damage being 2 AP per tier, Critical Accuracy should only be 1 AP per tier. Fighters already have the best to-hit in the game. Adding more prereqs for confirming critical hits is just silly.

    I) Weapon focus, Greater Weapon focus, and Weapon specialization are all requirements that haven't been improved in power or removed entirely. Still requires 8 levels of fighter to reach tier 5 because of these feat restrictions. MASSIVE FAIL
    The feat requirements need to be removed so the enhancement system is consistent. If developers want to promote players to choose 8 Fighter for Greater Weapon Focus, then it needs to provide something worthwhile instead of +1 to-hit which they don't need. If Greater Weapon Focus was changed to "doesn't automatically miss when a 1 is rolled", that would incentivize players to purchase that feat. It's also thematically appropriate for only Fighters to gain that ability.
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