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  1. #121
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I generally subscribe to your philosophy; I think the point is the journey, not the destination, and it seems to me that being in a hurry to get to "end game" is missing the entire point of a game.

    But I think you're making a mistaken assumption in believing that an absence of "hurry up" mechanisms would lead to more people playing more often, or that this would necessarily be a good thing. It seems logical on the surface, but many of the folks who hate the "grind" (self-created, mostly) and thus buy their way past it, would simply quit altogether if "forced" to do this the "long way". Others would continue to play but be resentful and bitter, which makes the gaming experience worse for everyone else.
    Ironically, the people who P2W all their items DO end up quitting because there is nothing to work towards anymore, until the next update brings new items (and the cycle repeats). It's the same as playing a console game and using cheat codes to unlock everything/get max level, except they are foolishly paying REAL MONEY to do it. Yeah, it's fun for a few hours after that having uber-faceroll power. But then the "wow" factor of facerolling the game wears off and they realize "Well, I don't have any goals anymore and there is nothing to accomplish." Then, they quit, even if they are only mid-way through the game.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its an issue of people hours allocation. More allocation to p2w mechanic implementation = less allocation to quality content.
    I agree completely with the first statement, but the second is problematic. It doesn't have to be an either/or scenario, but if it is, then that tells you more about the company than p2w generally. Lot's of excellent businesses run on the subsidization business model where one leg of the stool supports the endeavors of the other legs.

    Turbine makes money off the convenience factor, but the question is what gets done with all the cash. If what gets done with it is it gets extracted from Turbine by Warner execs, banked/dividended/bonused, and not re-invested in strengthening the non-p2w portions of the game, then it's not really p2w that is at fault, it's the company's corporate culture itself that is to blame.

  3. #123
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    I agree completely with the first statement, but the second is problematic. It doesn't have to be an either/or scenario, but if it is, then that tells you more about the company than p2w generally. Lot's of excellent businesses run on the subsidization business model where one leg of the stool supports the endeavors of the other legs.

    Turbine makes money off the convenience factor, but the question is what gets done with all the cash. If what gets done with it is it gets extracted from Turbine by Warner execs, banked/dividended/bonused, and not re-invested in strengthening the non-p2w portions of the game, then it's not really p2w that is at fault, it's the company's corporate culture itself that is to blame.
    This game is 7 years old, and has had a steady down-ward trend in its userbase for a long time. I highly doubt WB reinvests much of the earnings into a product this old that has waning popularity.

  4. #124
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I generally subscribe to your philosophy; I think the point is the journey, not the destination, and it seems to me that being in a hurry to get to "end game" is missing the entire point of a game.

    But I think you're making a mistaken assumption in believing that an absence of "hurry up" mechanisms would lead to more people playing more often, or that this would necessarily be a good thing. It seems logical on the surface, but many of the folks who hate the "grind" (self-created, mostly) and thus buy their way past it, would simply quit altogether if "forced" to do this the "long way". Others would continue to play but be resentful and bitter, which makes the gaming experience worse for everyone else.
    I dont see them quitting altogether if you have any semblance of grind in a game. In my time in the MMO world a number of surveys were run asking folks what the single biggest factor that keeps them playing the same game is. The lowest percentage I saw from any one of those surveys for the reason of "friends still play" was 89%.

    One thing I am finding to be very odd is the entitlement complex, where people dont want to grind, but they feel they sould still have easy access to the best loot the game has to offer. The only place I really see this mentality is the forums. I rarely if ever see it in game. People who dont want to grind realize they dont have to, it just means they will not have best in slot gear in every slot. DDO is easy enough where it isnt even that exclusionary like other games can be if someone doesnt want to grind. The difference will be having 2-3 really powerful toons for the person who doesnt like grinding, compared to the 15+ really powerful toons for the person who does like grinding and realizes that in an MMO, they will encounter at least some level of grind.

    Where are these people who absolutely feel they must have access to top end loot but will refuse any level of grind, to the point where they will quit playing over the fact that they have to play the game to attain loot, or other goals? Im used to meeting people that hate grind, but those folks realize, and take pride in, the fact that attaining gear or perfect TR build is not the reason they play, and have a severe lack of attitude of entitlement to all loot those willing to grind have more access to.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    Ironically, the people who P2W all their items DO end up quitting because there is nothing to work towards anymore, until the next update brings new items (and the cycle repeats). It's the same as playing a console game and using cheat codes to unlock everything/get max level, except they are foolishly paying REAL MONEY to do it. Yeah, it's fun for a few hours after that having uber-faceroll power. But then the "wow" factor of facerolling the game wears off and they realize "Well, I don't have any goals anymore and there is nothing to accomplish." Then, they quit, even if they are only mid-way through the game.
    The people that are most likely to do what you and Chai described are the power gamer that plays only 1 caracter. See I fall exactly in that category. What makes you leave is more related to the time invested than JUST the gear you acquire... but I agree it does matter as well for some. If someone's goal is only to get geared and not run the content, then I guess that person is more used to single player games (as you seem to comprehend) or they're just game jumpers. No matter what, these kind of player won't stick to just one game all the way from one content upgrade to another. They'll burn through it OR leave before they completed everything.

    Now with that being said, your assumptions seem largely influenced by the fact that you are not that kind of player and that you don't wanna put yourself in someone else's skin. While it's not a bad thing to think that way since it will hold truth sometimes, it's not really how it is in MMOs (and DDO). There are infinite replayability possibilities through alts and TRs. This is all much more related to the individual himself than the P2W model... I can assure you of that. As much as i'd like to think this is true all time, it's not. The P2W model WILL shorten the lenght of the game in general but it's not the only factor that influences it.

    I'll take myself (and lots of people i've played with over the years in different games) as an exemple to try to precise my point: There are players that just rush through content and will get everything out of it as quick as possible. And we don't use any P2W mechanics to achieve this... it's just how we are and how we handle gaming. Maybe we're addicted, maybe it's wrong... but it's what we do. Now there are super casual players that rely on those P2W mechanics as time savers because they don't have as much time to put on gaming or because they prefer to take it slower. They craft, they read NPCs dialogs... they just enjoy all the things that MMOs have to offer that aren't related ONLY to playing the game aka questing.

    What I'm trying to say (with the lack of words), is that while your point holds some truth, it's not all there is to consider and it will definatly not modify the pace at which most people make it through all the content or achieve their own goals. It's a bit more complicated than you guys want to put it.

    I feel like people thinking like you are only concerned about their own enjoyements (which I guess is right honestly even though I can't help myself to see both sides) and because of that, they forget that there is also a company trying to achieve it's own goal. It's like if you knew better than the devs of a game that has been lasting for years in a tough market where the competition is fierce.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 08-12-2013 at 02:37 PM.
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  6. #126
    Community Member icekinslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Good luck trying to buy highly sought after gear through AH.

    Other people buying gear from wherever has no bearing on my game in the negative way. The effect is positive, if I group with those people, meaning that the baddies die faster. And Pay-To-Win or P2W is STILL THE WRONG TERM TO BE USING, regardless of its meaning, new or old.

  7. #127
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    I agree completely with the first statement, but the second is problematic. It doesn't have to be an either/or scenario, but if it is, then that tells you more about the company than p2w generally. Lot's of excellent businesses run on the subsidization business model where one leg of the stool supports the endeavors of the other legs.

    Turbine makes money off the convenience factor, but the question is what gets done with all the cash. If what gets done with it is it gets extracted from Turbine by Warner execs, banked/dividended/bonused, and not re-invested in strengthening the non-p2w portions of the game, then it's not really p2w that is at fault, it's the company's corporate culture itself that is to blame.
    Corporate culture bred and fed on the knowledge that p2w mechanics are supported, and as long as they are, they will be implemented more and more, and given a scenario where people/hours as a resource is equal, less of those hours (and other resources) get dedicated to maintaining the non p2w mechanics. What Turbine found out was what social games already knew. You can make more short term money more quickly by catering to the big spenders, who are not the majority in headcount, but will be the majority financially.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #128
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by icekinslayer View Post
    Other people buying gear from wherever has no bearing on my game in the negative way. The effect is positive, if I group with those people, meaning that the baddies die faster. And Pay-To-Win or P2W is STILL THE WRONG TERM TO BE USING, regardless of its meaning, new or old.
    The Otto's Box is the very definition of "pay to win." You are buying something that can ONLY be obtained by paying Turbine Points-- a currency that can only be obtained with real money-- and using it to bypass 95% of the heroic leveling process. Sure, you can trade something for a box, but that box still had to come from somebody who paid real money for it.

  9. #129
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    The Otto's Box is the very definition of "pay to win." You are buying something that can ONLY be obtained by paying Turbine Points-- a currency that can only be obtained with real money-- and using it to bypass 95% of the heroic leveling process. Sure, you can trade something for a box, but that box still had to come from somebody who paid real money for it.
    And what do you "win" compared to someone who grinds it all out?

    The difference in the end is nothing. Just how long it took you to get there.

    Convenience is not pay to win.
    Last edited by Grosbeak07; 08-12-2013 at 02:48 PM.
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  10. #130
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Everyone knows when you win that the first prize is a box of Lucky Charms with only the purple horse shoe marshmellows. I've been trying for freaking years to get first place so i can claim my box. If there was a way to buy may way to first then I'd surely be willing to trade my 2 week all you can eat frosty pass.

  11. #131
    Community Member CaptainPurge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    The loot tables are the same on the re-roll. Someone want to sit there and spend money to re-roll the chest until they get the item they want is fair game in my book. I've been living with the limitations of pulling that I get when I get it for a long time now, and I really don't get all that envious of what anyone else pulls.
    Actually, you can only re-roll a chest once (I tried it on Lamannia), per quest completion. It would be extraordinarily sick if you could sit there and keep blowing through shards re-rolling until you get that item you're farming. It occurs to me it means if you're using cashtral shards to farm, it will cut your farming time in half (assuming the re-roll loot mechanic is the same as the non re-roll, but that is another discussion).
    Cannith: Ortarr (leader of Killer Dwarfs) - Purge Bravely - Drunkungfu Master - Ortarrdo Son of Ortarr - *others*

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Erm, you do know that Turbine makes no money if someone uses Astral Shards, correct?
    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    A part of the reason we are switching to an Astral Shard market IS to provide Turbine with money.
    The mental equilibristics needed to support these two outlooks in one mind at the same time is quite... impressive.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindCakes View Post
    The mental equilibristics needed to support these two outlooks in one mind at the same time is quite... impressive.
    The opportunism that some people use to make up their points is quite impressive lol. They don't even seem to have a real opinion, they just go with what's written and try to go against it, it's not even funny.

    Really, thanks for the laugh... that was awesome.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 08-12-2013 at 03:06 PM.
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  14. #134
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindCakes View Post
    The mental equilibristics needed to support these two outlooks in one mind at the same time is quite... impressive.
    Not really. It's just a difference of semantics.

    It's true that USING Astral Shards does not make Turbine money. They make money from selling you them, but once you have them in your possession no further money is made from them. :P

  15. #135
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Nah actually they double dip you. They sell them to you, then tax you on shard transactions also (such as astral exchange). That allows the people who make the shards (currency) a means to remove a % of that currency on a per transaction basis. Thus, you have a contastnat "bleeding" effect on that currency in the market which requires periodic "re-investiture" of currency to keep the markets moving.

    IE you buy shards to use in exchange. Those shards are slowly drained out of the economy requireing more shards to be purchased thereby feeding itself.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    This game is 7 years old, and has had a steady down-ward trend in its userbase for a long time. I highly doubt WB reinvests much of the earnings into a product this old that has waning popularity.
    Mickey Mouse is how old? Monopoly is how old?

    Entertainment properties can be kept fresh and up-to-date, even in the digital age, but that is entirely dependent on the vision of the people in charge.

  17. #137
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I do not believe this for one second.
    I’m shocked.

    Do you trust no one my green, trollish friend?!? Have you no faith in your fellow man?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainPurge View Post
    Actually, you can only re-roll a chest once (I tried it on Lamannia), per quest completion. It would be extraordinarily sick if you could sit there and keep blowing through shards re-rolling until you get that item you're farming. It occurs to me it means if you're using cashtral shards to farm, it will cut your farming time in half (assuming the re-roll loot mechanic is the same as the non re-roll, but that is another discussion).
    Actually, multiple re-rolls would reduce farming down to just about nil if they implemented it, however, I’m 99.99999999999999999994%positive that if this were the case, there would many on this forum gnashing their teeth and dressing in sackcloth in outrage (and they might have a point to do so). Hence, the one re-roll rule.

    I personally don’t have a problem with it. It strikes a decent balance between Trubine’s need to make money and not hosing people who want some sort of purity in playing the game.

    Now Warforged, in the other hand…

  18. #138
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    Everyone knows when you win that the first prize is a box of Lucky Charms with only the purple horse shoe marshmellows. I've been trying for freaking years to get first place so i can claim my box. If there was a way to buy may way to first then I'd surely be willing to trade my 2 week all you can eat frosty pass.
    My kid got a free-frostie thing as a reward for this reading contest. The one thing they didn't tell him is that the free-frostie they provide you makes a shot-glass look like a beer mug. It was amusing to watch his reaction.

    But it was free. Kinda like one of those free genie wishes.

    (In all fairness, he can go back multiple times, as many times as he wants for his free frostie thing - it has a limit of 1 year I think..)

  19. #139
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I’m shocked.

    Do you trust no one my green, trollish friend?!? Have you no faith in your fellow man?
    I only trust my fellow trolls. Scrags are okay to I guess. And maybe ogres if they'd stop blowing up the bathroom.


    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Now Warforged, in the other hand…
    What's so OP about WF this week?

  20. #140
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosbeak07 View Post
    And what do you "win" compared to someone who grinds it all out?

    The difference in the end is nothing. Just how long it took you to get there.

    Convenience is not pay to win.
    You are hung up on the win part of P2W. There is no actual winning. If you can coin a new term that can be universally used and understood than feel free and I will go along with it. Until then, P2W is what is used commonly.

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