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  1. #21
    Community Member Jerren's Avatar
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    Here's an idea. Rather than increase the potential on Invulnerability, and at the same time reduce the usability of the ability, put an absolute minimum level on the ability. This would guarantee that there won't be anyone running around at level 1 with an invulnerability item on. I don't know if cursed shards can be created or not but I have seen many cursed items that reduce the minimum level on an item in trade for say -1 Strength. If minimum levels on abilities are implemented seems like it will be a lot easier to make some of the abilities that currently are not available for crafting available without unbalancing the game. As it is, modifying the potential on abilities just limits the usefulness of the abilities and begs for further nerfs in the future.

  2. #22
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerren View Post
    Here's an idea. Rather than increase the potential on Invulnerability, and at the same time reduce the usability of the ability, put an absolute minimum level on the ability. This would guarantee that there won't be anyone running around at level 1 with an invulnerability item on. I don't know if cursed shards can be created or not but I have seen many cursed items that reduce the minimum level on an item in trade for say -1 Strength. If minimum levels on abilities are implemented seems like it will be a lot easier to make some of the abilities that currently are not available for crafting available without unbalancing the game. As it is, modifying the potential on abilities just limits the usefulness of the abilities and begs for further nerfs in the future.
    if minimum levels on abilities are implemented it would completely devalue masterful craftsmanship shards.

    minimum levels are already implied by the potential of an ability seams a bit redundant to give an ability a potential and min level.

  3. #23
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    if minimum levels on abilities are implemented it would completely devalue masterful craftsmanship shards.

    minimum levels are already implied by the potential of an ability seams a bit redundant to give an ability a potential and min level.
    I think absolute minimum level could have a place in cannith crafting. There are some properties that are best used in higher levels for balance reasons, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are worth a +6 or +7 value. I don't think lowbies should run around with True Seeing, but I also don't think it's worth +7 (or whatever it is, didn't look it up) all on it's own. If it were made a +3 enhancement but with an absolute min level of 12 then you could craft it alongside another useful ability and have a more useful item earlier.

    The same could be applied to invulnerability. It's clear we're not meant to have it at level 1. I can get that, but rather than make it a +3 enhancement (instead of +1) then keep it +1 but add an absolute minimum level of 3 on it. This could also allow the attack +2 and attack +4 shards to have some use again if they adopted the system there as well. Good Luck +1 and +2 are also good candidates.
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  4. #24
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    I think absolute minimum level could have a place in cannith crafting. There are some properties that are best used in higher levels for balance reasons, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are worth a +6 or +7 value. I don't think lowbies should run around with True Seeing, but I also don't think it's worth +7 (or whatever it is, didn't look it up) all on it's own. If it were made a +3 enhancement but with an absolute min level of 12 then you could craft it alongside another useful ability and have a more useful item earlier.

    The same could be applied to invulnerability. It's clear we're not meant to have it at level 1. I can get that, but rather than make it a +3 enhancement (instead of +1) then keep it +1 but add an absolute minimum level of 3 on it. This could also allow the attack +2 and attack +4 shards to have some use again if they adopted the system there as well. Good Luck +1 and +2 are also good candidates.
    this is not too bad of an idea if implemented correctly.

    I always like to craft a little something extra on some items but, putting useful combinations together raises the ML too high and I find myself going for only 1 suffix or prefix with the biggest bang.

  5. #25
    Community Member eachna_gislin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aristarchus1000 View Post
    I agree that newbies find it hard, but Invulnerability is a bit strong. One reason non-newbies find it trivial is because they abuse Invulnerability. I find it interesting that you make the point that newbies find it hard but DON'T have invulnerability.

    Frankly, I'd like to see the Ship buffs scale with level as well. I agree that 30 Resist for level 1 content is silly, if the devs could do it, it makes more sense for the buff to scale with the character level (10 at level 1, 20 at level 7, 30 at level 11).

    All nerfs hurt, but I can understand this one. The vets will hardly be affected because they should be able to blow through the content anyway without invulnerability. The newbies won't be affected since they didn't have low ML invulnerability anyway.
    Invulnerability is totally OP at low levels and I've been happily abusing it along with everyone else but I won't be all that sorry to see the level increased. Any time something is absolutely "must have", it's probably broken. I didn't have a problem with the Stability changes for the same reason.

    I don't agree that lower level content is non-trivial because of invulnerability...only because skill and memory of previous runs plays a very strong part in blitzing low level content. Something as simple as knowing to kill the kobold shamans first makes a huge impact on low level play, or knowing to stop before your toon gets roasted in a trap. Invulnerability certainly doesn't hurt and is particularly OP against archers and other sources of rapid, low-number damage.

    I'd like to see the ship buffs scale in the same way that the Resist Energy spell does and I would expect it could coded along the same lines.

  6. #26
    Community Member Jerren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    if minimum levels on abilities are implemented it would completely devalue masterful craftsmanship shards.

    minimum levels are already implied by the potential of an ability seams a bit redundant to give an ability a potential and min level.
    I disagree. Giving abilities an absolute minimum level and a potential both the same level, for instance Invulnerability would be absolute minimum level 3 and potential +3, expands the possibilities for the ability not limits their usability as the last update has done intended or not. Here is an example of what I am talking about:

    Armor with no bonus + Invulnerability = level 3 regardless of MC
    Armor with +1 bonus + Invulnerability = level 4 or level 3 with MC
    Armor with +2 bonus + Invulnerability = level 5 or level 3 with MC

    This way Invulnerability is still available at level 3 which was obviously intended by making the potential a +3 but at the same time makes it impossible for a level 1 character to use it. IMHO this same concept can and should be applied to all of crafting, keep in mind absolute minimum levels of items/abilities would not stack.

    So for instance, Battle Plate with absolute minimum level of 4 + Invulnerability with absolute minimum level of 3 is still minimum level 4 unless you add an enhancement bonus or something else that would raise the overall potential to a point where it is beyond +4.

    ***Sorry, according to OP, potential used to be +1 not +3***
    Last edited by Jerren; 10-10-2013 at 04:10 AM.

  7. #27
    Community Member Jerren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    I think absolute minimum level could have a place in cannith crafting. There are some properties that are best used in higher levels for balance reasons, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are worth a +6 or +7 value. I don't think lowbies should run around with True Seeing, but I also don't think it's worth +7 (or whatever it is, didn't look it up) all on it's own. If it were made a +3 enhancement but with an absolute min level of 12 then you could craft it alongside another useful ability and have a more useful item earlier.

    The same could be applied to invulnerability. It's clear we're not meant to have it at level 1. I can get that, but rather than make it a +3 enhancement (instead of +1) then keep it +1 but add an absolute minimum level of 3 on it. This could also allow the attack +2 and attack +4 shards to have some use again if they adopted the system there as well. Good Luck +1 and +2 are also good candidates.
    Invulnerability used to be +3 and with the latest update is now +5.

    ***This is what it adds to the minimum level, not to the potential.***
    Last edited by Jerren; 10-10-2013 at 03:43 AM.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerren View Post
    Invulnerability used to be +3 and with the latest update is now +5.
    What?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    What?
    My thought exactly. I've made a ML 2 invul robe (with masterful), only a week or two ago.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  10. #30
    Community Member Jerren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    My thought exactly. I've made a ML 2 invul robe (with masterful), only a week or two ago.
    When crafting an item with a Invulnerability shard before the update it used to read +3 to min level, +4 if it already had a min level. After the update it reads +5 to min level, +6 if it already has a min level. I haven't checked it lately to see if that has been changed but that is the way it was after update 19. Keep in mind that was without masterful, which last time I checked could only be done x2.
    Last edited by Jerren; 10-10-2013 at 04:13 AM.

  11. #31
    Community Member Jerren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    My thought exactly. I've made a ML 2 invul robe (with masterful), only a week or two ago.
    I will correct myself, MC can be done once which reduces the min level by 2. As far as creating a robe with a min level of 2 that is currently impossible and has been since update 19. The best you could do currently even with MC is level 3. I will edit my post above to reflect what it should be.
    Last edited by Jerren; 10-10-2013 at 03:39 AM.

  12. #32
    Community Member Jerren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    My thought exactly. I've made a ML 2 invul robe (with masterful), only a week or two ago.
    Oh and I might add, even if you created the robe before the update, after the update add 2 levels....better check it.
    Last edited by Jerren; 10-10-2013 at 04:11 AM.

  13. #33
    Community Member Jerren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerren View Post
    I disagree. Giving abilities an absolute minimum level and a potential both the same level, for instance Invulnerability would be absolute minimum level 3 and potential +3, expands the possibilities for the ability not limits their usability as the last update has done intended or not. Here is an example of what I am talking about:

    Armor with no bonus + Invulnerability = level 3 regardless of MC
    Armor with +1 bonus + Invulnerability = level 4 or level 3 with MC
    Armor with +2 bonus + Invulnerability = level 5 or level 3 with MC

    This way Invulnerability is still available at level 3 which was obviously intended by making the potential a +3 but at the same time makes it impossible for a level 1 character to use it. IMHO this same concept can and should be applied to all of crafting, keep in mind absolute minimum levels of items/abilities would not stack.

    So for instance, Battle Plate with absolute minimum level of 4 + Invulnerability with absolute minimum level of 3 is still minimum level 4 unless you add an enhancement bonus or something else that would raise the overall potential to a point where it is beyond +4.

    ***Sorry, according to OP, potential used to be +1 not +3***
    Just dawned on me, sorry if I'm a little slow, but this increase in potential not only means that it raises the minimum level of the item but also limits what else can be put on the item which further decreases its usability. The more I think about it the more I think that this was intended and devs want to limit the potential for Invulnerability or they really had a brain fart on this one.

  14. #34
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    I have just created an invulnerability robe, with a newly made shard and a newly disjuncted robe. The shard was +3 potential, and the robe became ML 4 (without a masterful).

    Are you sure your robe/armor/whatever did not have a slot of some kind? Because mine are as I described. I can post the screenies if you really feel like it.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  15. #35

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    Yeah something is different in the crafting ML formula. Namely, I'm getting even MLs on some crafted items, which shouldn't be possible. I'm also seeing consistently lower-than-expected MLs. As a made up example, crafting +8 worth of stuff would appear as ML14 or even ML12 instead of the expected ML15.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Yeah something is different in the crafting ML formula. Namely, I'm getting even MLs on some crafted items, which shouldn't be possible. I'm also seeing consistently lower-than-expected MLs. As a made up example, crafting +8 worth of stuff would appear as ML14 or even ML12 instead of the expected ML15.
    Weapons and armor are now consistent with randgen items, in that they stick to even levels for ML, instead of odd like before. This I believe is WAI.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  17. #37
    Community Member Jerren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    I have just created an invulnerability robe, with a newly made shard and a newly disjuncted robe. The shard was +3 potential, and the robe became ML 4 (without a masterful).

    Are you sure your robe/armor/whatever did not have a slot of some kind? Because mine are as I described. I can post the screenies if you really feel like it.
    My bad, I didn't actually create the item. I just viewed the tooltip which says adds +6 to min level, +5 if item has no min level. I did however just now create a suit of armor with no min level and add the shard and sure enough it is min level 4.

    On the other hand the suit of armor that I referred to in one of my first posts in this thread that was level 6 prior to update 19 is still showing level 8 so go figure.

    Also like I said before this used to be +4 to min level, +3 if item has no min level. So it is definately not the way it was before because both the robe you created and the armor that I created would have been level 3 before.
    Last edited by Jerren; 10-10-2013 at 11:51 PM.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerren View Post
    Also like I said before this used to be +4 to min level, +3 if item has no min level. So it is definately not the way it was before because both the robe you created and the armor that I created would have been level 3 before.
    This is true, but Turbine did own up to this, so I suppose this is WAI - whatever that means to Turbine.

    There are lots of bad changes to Cannith Crafting in U19, but waiting to level 2 to equip my invulnerability robe is not the worst by far.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Nothing in the Cannith Crafting system was deliberately altered, so anything that's been changed is a halo of other changes that were made. Thanks for the heads up, though!
    So if it was not intended when can we expect it to be rolled back/fixed?

  20. #40
    The Hatchery stoerm's Avatar
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    I was going to be upset about the invulnerability nerf, but honestly it's been a bit cheesy. There is very little impact anyhow: levels 1 and 2 are pretty easy as it is and my Korthos babies can still wear an invulnerability robe from level 3 to ~10.
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