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  1. #1
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    Default Divine Might should be a tier4 enhancement

    Divine Might can't be used until a character has Turn Undead charges. That's doesn't occur until Paladin level 4, yet Divine Might is a tier 2 (Paladin level 2) enhancement. Divine Might should probably be moved up the enhancement tree to tier 4 to avoid this oversight in design. Otherwise it's going to cause confusion, and confusion needs to be eliminated from game design.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    DM should be accessed at early levels and requirements for it completed as soon as possible. By the time you start using insight gear its a waste of AP. The earliest we see insight is 18 with TOD set?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Divine Might can't be used until a character has Turn Undead charges. That's doesn't occur until Paladin level 4, yet Divine Might is a tier 2 (Paladin level 2) enhancement. Divine Might should probably be moved up the enhancement tree to tier 4 to avoid this oversight in design. Otherwise it's going to cause confusion, and confusion needs to be eliminated from game design.
    I'm pretty sure the main reason Divine Might is accessible at its current Tier is so Pally Defenders don't need to make a heavy investment into the KOTC tree to gain access to generic paladin buff instead of a specialized buff that should be located higher in the tree. If you are curious, that heavy investment into the KOTC to access stuff at Tier 4 involves 20 AP in addition to the 4 levels of paladin; 20 AP means that a level 5 paladin needs to use every AP point to access stuff in that tree, plus an additional 2 bubbles (or another half level) just to get the first rank of Divine Might if placed as a Tier 4 ability.
    Last edited by oradafu; 08-10-2013 at 02:05 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    The earliest we see insight is 18 with TOD set?
    I usually put on +2 Insightful to my main stat, along with +1 Exceptional, at level 12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    The earliest we see insight is 18 with TOD set?
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  6. #6
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    OK so DM is no longer useful after level 10. What to do with all that extra AP..

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    OK so DM is no longer useful after level 10. What to do with all that extra AP..
    How is adding your charisma modifier to your strength score as a sacred bonus not useful after level 10?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xorlandu View Post
    How is adding your charisma modifier to your strength score as a sacred bonus not useful after level 10?
    Since the Sacred Defender stance uses a Sacred bonus also, the Devs changed Divine Might into a Insight bonus. So all formerly Exceptional Str gear (except for +1 Ex Str) no longer stacks with Divine Might.

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    Ok, didn't see the change to insightful bonus. Even so don't see how it's not useful after level 10 when the highest insightful bonus you could get on gear is +3 last I checked and it is not hard to get a higher Cha mod than that. Can get +7 from just base 8, +4 tome, +8 item/+2 insightful +2 shipbuff.

  10. #10
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xorlandu View Post
    Ok, didn't see the change to insightful bonus. Even so don't see how it's not useful after level 10 when the highest insightful bonus you could get on gear is +3 last I checked and it is not hard to get a higher Cha mod than that. Can get +7 from just base 8, +4 tome, +8 item/+2 insightful +2 shipbuff.
    I have no idea how the trees are set up or how much AP costs, but currently the max you can get is +8. would you really want to invest 10 AP for an extra 5 bonus? I have no idea what you are talking about with CHA modifier. that has nothing to do with DM not stacking with insight. its only useless though if you are wearing insight gear. in upper levels its hard to pass up those items with insight on them.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    I have no idea how the trees are set up or how much AP costs, but currently the max you can get is +8. would you really want to invest 10 AP for an extra 5 bonus? I have no idea what you are talking about with CHA modifier. that has nothing to do with DM not stacking with insight. its only useless though if you are wearing insight gear. in upper levels its hard to pass up those items with insight on them.
    It's 6 AP if you want all 3 tiers in the new system (2AP per tier, higher tiers only increase the duration from 1:00 to 1:30 and then 2:00)

    On my current character I have 32 CHA so it would be +11 to Str, -3 with not stacking, so +8 which is +4 to damage. As opposed to the +6 to damage I get for 6 AP with DM 3 on live right now.

  12. #12
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Divine Might can't be used until a character has Turn Undead charges. That's doesn't occur until Paladin level 4, yet Divine Might is a tier 2 (Paladin level 2) enhancement. Divine Might should probably be moved up the enhancement tree to tier 4 to avoid this oversight in design. Otherwise it's going to cause confusion, and confusion needs to be eliminated from game design.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    DM should be accessed at early levels and requirements for it completed as soon as possible. By the time you start using insight gear its a waste of AP.
    Divine Might should be a divine boost to damage (regardless of damage stat) related to how well the paladin is connected to their deity. As such it should not be a CHA bonus added to STR (as it is planned for the enhancement pass) and neither should it be a straight increase to damage as it is at the moment.

    DM should instead be (paladin levels/2) added damage. The more paladin levels the character has the more in tune with their deity and the more effective DM is.

    Its duration should also be tied to paladin levels. The more paladin levels the character has the more in tune with their deity and the longer the deity maintains connection enabling greater damage. IMO it should be 6 seconds per paladin level (minimum 24 seconds at L4 to maximum of 120 seconds at L20+).

    This change makes DM thematically rational and rewards characters that have more than a minor splash as well as pure class builds.

    The stat source of damage should be irrelevant. STR, DEX, WIS, INT, CHA -- that should have no bearing on whether the damage boost registers. Whatever the weapon gains from stat sources should be independent from the divine boost that comes from DM.

    And, the boost type should not be an insight bonus but a divine or, perhaps, profane bonus.

    Lastly, it should be far enough up the tree to ensure that the character has the requisite turn undead ability. Enhancements should be useful at the time taken, not at some future time in character development.
    Last edited by Therigar; 08-10-2013 at 10:09 PM.

  13. #13
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    It's 6 AP if you want all 3 tiers in the new system (2AP per tier, higher tiers only increase the duration from 1:00 to 1:30 and then 2:00)

    On my current character I have 32 CHA so it would be +11 to Str, -3 with not stacking, so +8 which is +4 to damage. As opposed to the +6 to damage I get for 6 AP with DM 3 on live right now.
    oh I see what he was talking about now. I played a Paladin 3x for the PL so I wouldn't say I was an expert on the class. I was just thinking about the damage with Cha modifier and forgot about the Str part of it.

    I think Therigar is spot on with how DM should actually work.

  14. #14
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    I think Therigar is spot on with how DM should actually work.
    I suspect the Turbine development team would struggle with the question of how much AP something like I suggest should cost. DM4 costs 10 AP and the proposed change costs 6 AP.

    My solution would be to alter the duration with the expenditure of added AP keeping the 6 AP template but changing the 6 seconds per paladin level to 4/5/6 seconds per paladin level.

  15. #15
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Divine Might should be a divine boost to damage (regardless of damage stat) related to how well the paladin is connected to their deity. As such it should not be a CHA bonus added to STR (as it is planned for the enhancement pass) and neither should it be a straight increase to damage as it is at the moment.

    DM should instead be (paladin levels/2) added damage. The more paladin levels the character has the more in tune with their deity and the more effective DM is.

    Its duration should also be tied to paladin levels. The more paladin levels the character has the more in tune with their deity and the longer the deity maintains connection enabling greater damage. IMO it should be 6 seconds per paladin level (minimum 24 seconds at L4 to maximum of 120 seconds at L20+).

    This change makes DM thematically rational and rewards characters that have more than a minor splash as well as pure class builds.

    The stat source of damage should be irrelevant. STR, DEX, WIS, INT, CHA -- that should have no bearing on whether the damage boost registers. Whatever the weapon gains from stat sources should be independent from the divine boost that comes from DM.

    And, the boost type should not be an insight bonus but a divine or, perhaps, profane bonus.

    Lastly, it should be far enough up the tree to ensure that the character has the requisite turn undead ability. Enhancements should be useful at the time taken, not at some future time in character development.
    Finally something that I agree with and would fix my major gripe to what they are doing to it right now. Like I had been saying what they are doing now is bad for pure builds and like I said elsewhere DM is suppose to be a "sacred" bonus or divine as that is the same thing. Thematically it should not be a profane bonus IMO. If it can't be a sacred bonus, because of the sacred defender stance, make it an untyped bonus that stacks with any others.




    This way I can keep using my gimpy drowpesh and he could keep using his gimpy efalcatas.
    Last edited by SilkofDrasnia; 08-10-2013 at 11:48 PM.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    I have no idea how the trees are set up or how much AP costs, but currently the max you can get is +8. would you really want to invest 10 AP for an extra 5 bonus? I have no idea what you are talking about with CHA modifier. that has nothing to do with DM not stacking with insight. its only useless though if you are wearing insight gear. in upper levels its hard to pass up those items with insight on them.
    Unless DM was changed again in the passed few weeks and I'm making a bigger a$$ of myself, DM on lam adds your cha modifier to your strength score rather than just adding +x to your damage. To get the same amount of damage as max DM on live you would need a cha or 42. Might be a bit strange to get cha that high but now instead of just +damage it adds to tactics dc's as well because of the strength increase.

    Just adding in to what was said above about getting +8 strength from it. While only getting +4 damage it also adds +4 to trip, sunder, stunning blow and other strength based dc's.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    Finally something that I agree with and would fix my major gripe to what they are doing to it right now. Like I had been saying what they are doing now is bad for pure builds and like I said elsewhere DM is suppose to be a "sacred" bonus or divine as that is the same thing. Thematically it should not be a profane bonus IMO. If it can't be a sacred bonus, because of the sacred defender stance, make it an untyped bonus that stacks with any others.




    This way I can keep using my gimpy drowpesh and he could keep using his gimpy efalcatas.
    If they'd make it a damage bonus instead of strength bonus it wouldn't matter if it was sacred anymore.

  18. #18
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    To address a few of the above posts,

    You don't have to have 4 levels of Paladin to turn undead. You can twist it in.

    Divine Might works better as a strength bonus because it affects tactics as well. Changing it to a damage bonus might help a little with the DPS, but the higher tactical DC's are more valuable.

    Divine Might will be useful whether it stacks with +2 or 3 insightful strength gear or not, but I would prefer that it was a bonus type that caused less conflicts with other bonuses.

    The current Divine Might duration is fine. There is no reason to change the system to discourage splashing.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 08-11-2013 at 03:07 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    To address a few of the above posts,

    You don't have to have 4 levels of Paladin to turn undead. You can twist it in.

    Divine Might works better as a strength bonus because it affects tactics as well. Changing it to a damage bonus might help a little with the DPS, but the higher tactical DC's are more valuable.

    Divine Might will be useful whether it stacks with +2 or 3 insightful strength gear or not, but I would prefer that it was a bonus type that caused less conflicts with other bonuses.

    The current Divine Might duration is fine. There is no reason to change the system to discourage splashing.
    It seems that the debate on whether the bonus should be more valuable for splashing or for the pure class. If Divine Might cannot stack with Insight gear, it's more valuable for a pure Paladin as damage, because tactically speaking, it's splashes of paladin for Monk and Fighter that benefit more for the Str bonus.

    Personally, I like it to be a stacking Str bonus that doesn't gimp a pure paladin. I'd also like to keep or surpass the damage that I can currently get on Live, which I can't with the changes.

  20. #20
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Divine Might should be a divine boost to damage (regardless of damage stat) related to how well the paladin is connected to their deity. As such it should not be a CHA bonus added to STR (as it is planned for the enhancement pass) and neither should it be a straight increase to damage as it is at the moment.

    DM should instead be (paladin levels/2) added damage. The more paladin levels the character has the more in tune with their deity and the more effective DM is.

    Its duration should also be tied to paladin levels. The more paladin levels the character has the more in tune with their deity and the longer the deity maintains connection enabling greater damage. IMO it should be 6 seconds per paladin level (minimum 24 seconds at L4 to maximum of 120 seconds at L20+).

    This change makes DM thematically rational and rewards characters that have more than a minor splash as well as pure class builds.

    The stat source of damage should be irrelevant. STR, DEX, WIS, INT, CHA -- that should have no bearing on whether the damage boost registers. Whatever the weapon gains from stat sources should be independent from the divine boost that comes from DM.

    And, the boost type should not be an insight bonus but a divine or, perhaps, profane bonus.

    Lastly, it should be far enough up the tree to ensure that the character has the requisite turn undead ability. Enhancements should be useful at the time taken, not at some future time in character development.
    /Signed. Awesome idea!
    Aryk Stoutheart, Vanguard Paladin
    Grolyn Stoutheart, Divine Disciple Cleric
    Rindyl Twirliblade, Elven Swashbuckler

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