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  1. #21
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    You don't have to have 4 levels of Paladin to turn undead. You can twist it in.
    IMO this does not alter anything. Twists are for epic characters and enhancements are part of heroic character building.

    I know that heroic characters can use twists after reincarnation but this is, IMO, a mistake. Twists are supposed to be a way to share epic abilities at epic levels -- not a way to pull epic abilities down to heroic levels.

    So the basic principle that a paladin enhancement should only be available to characters when a paladin's heroic level is high enough to use turns ought to still apply. Class enhancements should only apply if that class is able to use them.

    Might as well argue that a L1 cleric has turns so DM should stay at tier 1. Rationally there is no reason why a cleric 1/paladin 1 should have DM when a paladin 3 cannot. This makes no sense with respect to the entire class based focus of character development or thematically or rationally. More than that, DM for clerics currently requires cleric 5 -- so it makes no sense to give a 1/1 split something that neither class can get by remaining pure until L4 (coming) or L5 (current).
    Last edited by Therigar; 08-11-2013 at 02:04 PM.

  2. #22
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    This way I can keep using my gimpy drowpesh and he could keep using his gimpy efalcatas.
    I can see you missed the point regarding the gimpy efalcata.

    The point there was that the whining that is going on about paladins is in fact without merit. They are not forced to use shields to benefit from their defensive stance. They are not actually losing DPS because of the change to DM. The choice of weapons was to illustrate that we, as players, have to rethink our method of building in order to maintain our defensive and offensive capabilities.

    This thread's discussion on DM really is more about how to reward paladins for being paladins. Thematically their deity should be happier with them the more nearly pure class that they remain. A paladin 2 isn't nearly as dedicated to the goals of their deity as a paladin 12 -- and a paladin 12 not nearly as dedicated as a paladin 20.

    The whole idea behind the holy warrior is that they put off other choices in life (ie, other character classes) in order to follow their deity. So Divine Might should be functionally more powerful the more committed the character is to their deity.

    Fundamentally the changes in the new system do not reduce a paladin's ability in defense or in attack. This thread and my suggestion is that there should be greater reward for remaining pure (or purer). This is consistent with my post elsewhere on capstone abilities that they should greatly increase the pure class's ability as a reward for remaining pure.

    Multiclass characters choose the synergies of the multiclass and that is its own reward. Players are hard pressed to point out pure class builds of any type that are better than a multiclass build. Capstones should be powerful enough to make players pause and debate whether they want to take the multiclass.

    FWIW, I understand that part of your specific argument is that the ability to multiclass and gain synergy makes being a paladin moot. That isn't because paladins are losing anything in the pass but because others are gaining too much. Like with capstones being used to encourage players to reconsider pure v multiclass, the DM suggestion is designed with that same thought behind it.
    Last edited by Therigar; 08-11-2013 at 02:08 PM.

  3. #23
    Community Member benicius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I can see you missed the point regarding the gimpy efalcata.
    The point there was that the whining that is going on about paladins is in fact without merit. They are not forced to use shields to benefit from their defensive stance. They are not actually losing DPS because of the change to DM.

    I recently went into Lamm to check on the enhancement changes for my 1st life Paladin(20 lvls). Let me see if I understand the DM change correctly.

    I currently have Div Might IV +8 sacred to damage. My stats with my current gear - STR 34(+12) CHA30(+10). I have +2 insight STR on an item, which doesn't stack with DM. With the new changes, DivMight sends my CHA mod to STR, which would make my STR 42(+16). Basically, I lose +4 to damage. Divine Might cut in half. So I now have to find a way to make up for that just to stay where I currently am. That doesn't seem to be a good thing.


    I like your idea of what DM should be, but I am more concerned with what it will be when it goes live.
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  4. #24
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    IMO this does not alter anything. Twists are for epic characters and enhancements are part of heroic character building.
    Enhancements apply to both heroic and epic characters. I actually believe that what is possible for a character at endgame is more relevant than what is possible during the heroic levels, because non completionists spend more time at endgame than leveling.

    As for the cleric turn undead example, this is relevant too. If a cleric is able to get divine might from a couple levels of Paladin, that's great. Any more levels of Paladin required would eliminate 9th level spells. Looking at this from a character building perspective, there are more possibilities with Divine Might only requiring two levels of Paladin (with a twist or cleric level). I see no reason to limit character building options. I actually think it's detrimental to the game to do so.

    The only benefit of moving Divine Might to tier 4 is clearing up some confusion, which can just as easily be done by updating the description of the enhancement, and this option wouldn't punish characters for splashing paladin levels. If the objective of all of this is to reward pure paladins in an additional way, I'm really not interested, but I'm sure some people with pure paladins will be in favor of eliminating build options in hopes that it will somehow make their characters better (which it wont).
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 08-11-2013 at 02:44 PM.

  5. #25
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I can see you missed the point regarding the gimpy efalcata.

    The point there was that the whining that is going on about paladins is in fact without merit. They are not forced to use shields to benefit from their defensive stance. They are not actually losing DPS because of the change to DM. The choice of weapons was to illustrate that we, as players, have to rethink our method of building in order to maintain our defensive and offensive capabilities.

    I hear what you are saying about the stances I was never talking about stances though, I am disagreeing that moving towards cha based weapons in general instead of staying with str ones on the bases that most decent weapons are str based. I know we have to rethink things but there's only so many ways you can "rethink" things in this new pass. Please get over it and move on, we both want to improve pallies sort even if we don't agree in which direction to build them

    This thread's discussion on DM really is more about how to reward paladins for being paladins. Thematically their deity should be happier with them the more nearly pure class that they remain. A paladin 2 isn't nearly as dedicated to the goals of their deity as a paladin 12 -- and a paladin 12 not nearly as dedicated as a paladin 20.

    The whole idea behind the holy warrior is that they put off other choices in life (ie, other character classes) in order to follow their deity. So Divine Might should be functionally more powerful the more committed the character is to their deity.

    No ****! I am agreeing with you doh!

    Fundamentally the changes in the new system do not reduce a paladin's ability in defense or in attack. This thread and my suggestion is that there should be greater reward for remaining pure (or purer). This is consistent with my post elsewhere on capstone abilities that they should greatly increase the pure class's ability as a reward for remaining pure.

    I disagree with the first sentence here. I agree with the capstone thing, if you go to the capstone thread you will see I mention the very same thing, before you I might add lol

    Multiclass characters choose the synergies of the multiclass and that is its own reward. Players are hard pressed to point out pure class builds of any type that are better than a multiclass build. Capstones should be powerful enough to make players pause and debate whether they want to take the multiclass.

    No ****! I am agreeing with you doh!

    FWIW, I understand that part of your specific argument is that the ability to multiclass and gain synergy makes being a paladin moot. That isn't because paladins are losing anything in the pass but because others are gaining too much. Like with capstones being used to encourage players to reconsider pure v multiclass, the DM suggestion is designed with that same thought behind it.

    Again I disagree those wanting to rebuild something in the lines of hotd have lost defense capabilities in the form of the loss of heal amp etc etc. Semantics, if others are gaining too much in essence pallies is losing, the end result is the same. Also no **** about the suggestion with DM, where in my post do you get that I don't see it is about balancing out multiclass vs pure?
    Replies in green.

    Some more changes to make pallies less sucky would be they get extra damage against EO which depends on their pally levels and how much they have and they get this regardless of what tree they choose. In the kotc/hotd tree should also get extra damage against undead. They put hotd and kotc together in the same tree but didn't really "merge" them like many of us suggested they do.

    Bloodnose13 in the official thread has some nice ideas
    :

    BOTH trees should get OWN LoH number boost enchancement, merged with number of turns, kotc would have extra enchancement that makes turns more powerfull and at same time adds additional charges, defender would get 3 loh and 3 turns. takeing it from one tree blocks the other, so cant be taken from both.

    BOTH prestige base enchancements should grant extra damage against evil, with kotc getting also extra damage to undead or outsiders.

    BOTH trees should have OWN smite enchancements, with exalted smite on the kotc focusing on raw damage and dos smite, a smite that focuses on makeing enemy weaker to damage, for paladin and whole group (either only physical damage, OR good, lawful and light daamge types), there is much more possible effects it could make, with even something similar to light monks healing curse.
    Frankly this is how they should have went and kind of how thought they would.
    Last edited by SilkofDrasnia; 08-14-2013 at 10:11 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
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    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by benicius View Post
    I recently went into Lamm to check on the enhancement changes for my 1st life Paladin(20 lvls). Let me see if I understand the DM change correctly.

    I currently have Div Might IV +8 sacred to damage. My stats with my current gear - STR 34(+12) CHA30(+10). I have +2 insight STR on an item, which doesn't stack with DM. With the new changes, DivMight sends my CHA mod to STR, which would make my STR 42(+16). Basically, I lose +4 to damage. Divine Might cut in half. So I now have to find a way to make up for that just to stay where I currently am. That doesn't seem to be a good thing.
    Yes, you got it exactly.

    The original change was beneficial to splashes and hurt anyone that built for Divine Might IV. Since the Defender Stance and Divine Might weren't stacking, the Devs changed Divine Might again so that Divine Might doesn't stack with Insight bonuses on items. Since other classes have other ways to boost their Str and usually have low Cha, all this did was penalize pure Paladins in their gear choice to boost Str and as you stated cut the amount of Damage the Divine Might IV gave by about half.
    Last edited by oradafu; 08-11-2013 at 02:45 PM.

  7. #27
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Divine Might should be a divine boost to damage (regardless of damage stat) related to how well the paladin is connected to their deity. As such it should not be a CHA bonus added to STR (as it is planned for the enhancement pass) and neither should it be a straight increase to damage as it is at the moment.

    DM should instead be (paladin levels/2) added damage. The more paladin levels the character has the more in tune with their deity and the more effective DM is.

    Its duration should also be tied to paladin levels. The more paladin levels the character has the more in tune with their deity and the longer the deity maintains connection enabling greater damage. IMO it should be 6 seconds per paladin level (minimum 24 seconds at L4 to maximum of 120 seconds at L20+).

    This change makes DM thematically rational and rewards characters that have more than a minor splash as well as pure class builds.

    ...
    Well, for the straight increase to damage which you have right now, you also have to invest heavily into CHA. Also you need to spend quite some points in the enhancements to reach DM IV, so it is balanced by this. However I do like your idea, and fits much more thematically and from the usability standpoint. This way it would be still useful for splashes and is a directly linked trade-off.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    To address a few of the above posts,

    You don't have to have 4 levels of Paladin to turn undead. You can twist it in.

    Divine Might works better as a strength bonus because it affects tactics as well. Changing it to a damage bonus might help a little with the DPS, but the higher tactical DC's are more valuable.

    Divine Might will be useful whether it stacks with +2 or 3 insightful strength gear or not, but I would prefer that it was a bonus type that caused less conflicts with other bonuses.

    The current Divine Might duration is fine. There is no reason to change the system to discourage splashing.
    Well, some player would probably argue that you finally won't even reach epic levels on a Paladin to make use of a turn undead twist. Independent of that, beside the fact while you can also shoot yourself in the knee, it's as silly as to add a turn undead twist just to make DM work. Or in short, just because you can, it doesn't mean one should consider it.

    Also the tactics will help splashes much more then a pure Paladin as a Paladin as a feat starved class just doesn't have enough feats to get all of them. Nothing against splashes, but a pure Paladin should be able to make at least the same use out of it, but currently they loose on that, which is IMO bad design.
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  8. #28
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    Enhancements apply to both heroic and epic characters. I actually believe that what is possible for a character at endgame is more relevant than what is possible during the heroic levels, because non completionists spend more time at endgame than leveling.
    Actually I don't buy that. In fact I believe except of the 10% population participating in the forum, that probably 90% of the player base is stuck in heroic levels. May it either due to reincarnation but much rather just due to the fact that a new player just takes a lot more time to reach level 20.

    How long did it took you to cap your first character and how long do you play since? Why do you actually think they sell those iconic characters? While I agree that this should be useful and important at endgame, most players aren't there.
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
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  9. #29
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisAmethyst View Post
    Independent of that, beside the fact while you can also shoot yourself in the knee, it's as silly as to add a turn undead twist just to make DM work. Or in short, just because you can, it doesn't mean one should consider it.
    It's not at all hard to get 30+ charisma from base 14 and the new gear. Is it worth a twist to get the equivalent of Kensai Power Surge except that it lasts two minutes instead of one? Remember, we are talking about a boost that affects both DPS and tactics.

    You're right, what a waste of a twist. I would hate to "shoot myself in the knee" (it's foot btw) with a useless twist like that.

  10. #30
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisAmethyst View Post

    How long did it took you to cap your first character and how long do you play since?
    3 months, 3 1/2 years? Not sure what the question is about.

    I build for endgame unless I'm just picking up a past life. I'm much less concerned with what works for heroic levels, because being viable in ee is more of a challenge and is more important for gearing a character than being viable in heroics, which frankly is mostly easy. I'm not sure why I am responding to a conversation about whether building for heroics or endgame is more important, because it's irrelevant. A more elaborate tool tip explaining what is required to use Divine Might is all that is needed to clear up any confusion. Moving it to tier 4 doesn't do heroic characters any special favors. It only eliminates build options.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 08-13-2013 at 04:15 PM.

  11. #31
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    3 months, 3 1/2 years? Not sure what the question is about.

    I build for endgame unless I'm just picking up a past life. I'm much less concerned with what works for heroic levels, because being viable in ee is more of a challenge and is more important for gearing a character than being viable in heroics, which frankly is mostly easy. I'm not sure why I am responding to a conversation about whether building for heroics or endgame is more important, because it's irrelevant. A more elaborate tool tip explaining what is required to use Divine Might is all that is needed to clear up any confusion. Moving it to tier 4 doesn't do heroic characters any special favors. It only eliminates build options.
    Agreed, who cares about heroic...my first life twobox sorc with empty gear slots zergs EE heroic content fine.

    All of the major concerns regarding these enhancement refract through the lens of ENDGAME. That's where balance and design are most difficult and require closest attention.
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  12. #32
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Agreed, who cares about heroic...my first life twobox sorc with empty gear slots zergs EE heroic content fine.

    All of the major concerns regarding these enhancement refract through the lens of ENDGAME. That's where balance and design are most difficult and require closest attention.
    You might be surprised how many people don't care about endgame and that has probably gone up lately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
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    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    You might be surprised how many people don't care about endgame and that has probably gone up lately.
    I have to agree with Silk.

    It's about a 50/50 split. The split sometimes tilts one way more than the other, but since Epics stopped being Hold for casters and beat down by melees, the end game became more evenly split. Which is always one of the reason that raising the cap past 20 hurt the game and the upcoming cap of 20 won't be helping much....but that's another story for another thread.

  14. #34
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    You might be surprised how many people don't care about endgame and that has probably gone up lately.
    At some point they will finish TR'ing and then they will care about endgame.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmeth View Post
    /Signed. Awesome idea!
    Y u hate clerics?
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  16. #36
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    At some point they will finish TR'ing and then they will care about endgame.
    Maybe you haven't noticed but endgame has gone down the drain lately, there is what 2 "endgame" things to do? FoT and citw. I remember when the rest of the raids were actually relevant.

    Also consider there are many that enjoy 1 to 20 and I know many many many that suffer from altitis and they don't care so much about raids.

    Hell, I use to run raids as soon as they were off timer and had 5 or 6 I use to run and now what? I run abbot when I see it up and that is it. I mean why bother when FoS will just make my gear I am grinding for kinda meh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  17. #37
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    3 months, 3 1/2 years? Not sure what the question is about.
    Yes, and what I mean with this is that we have a lot of new players that will be anywhere close to what you define as endgame. This are the masses for which the game is altered for... but this is derailing ...
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
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  18. #38
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmeth View Post
    /Signed. Awesome idea!
    Guys this enhancement is perfest as is! Its so much better as a strength bonus with all the +10-11 stat items out there. Many paladins can walk around with 50+ strength and charisma easily. Huge saves, solid strength checks against web dcs etc, and solid dps. Who cares that this wont stack with a measly +3 insightfull strength item?

    Base str 14
    Tome 4
    Item 11
    Exception 1
    Total 30

    Base cha 18
    Tome 4
    11 item
    7 level
    1 exeption
    2 insight
    5 enhancements
    Total 48

    Strenght 30+19 from charisma
    Total 49!

    No ship, fury shout , yugo, tensor, madstone!

    Buffed cha 52

    Buffed str (above buffs) 45
    +21 from charisma
    Total 66
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    Guys this enhancement is perfest as is! Its so much better as a strength bonus with all the +10-11 stat items out there. Many paladins can walk around with 50+ strength and charisma easily. Huge saves, solid strength checks against web dcs etc, and solid dps. Who cares that this wont stack with a measly +3 insightfull strength item?

    Base str 14
    Tome 4
    Item 11
    Exception 1
    Total 30

    Base cha 18
    Tome 4
    11 item
    7 level
    1 exeption
    2 insight
    5 enhancements
    Total 48

    Strenght 30+19 from charisma
    Total 49!

    No ship, fury shout , yugo, tensor, madstone!

    Buffed cha 52

    Buffed str (above buffs) 45
    +21 from charisma
    Total 66
    So I have to go through all that just to get an equivalent boost to damage as I have now with a CHA of 32 Str of 50 and none of those short term buffs? (Many of which as a defender I can't use anyways) Gee thanks!

  20. #40
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    So I have to go through all that just to get an equivalent boost to damage as I have now with a CHA of 32 Str of 50 and none of those short term buffs? (Many of which as a defender I can't use anyways) Gee thanks!
    Oh I'm sorry, you must have MISSED the part where you had 49 strength with NO buffs! Not to mention some of those buffs every pally should have.


    And you are WRONG, even without those buffs you get a BIGGER boost to damage then live.


    Unbuffed charisma: 48
    Adds: 19 strength
    Equal to 9 damage 1 handed, 14 damage live
    Adds 9 to hit
    Adds 9 to tactical DCs
    Adds 19 to strength checks (webs etc)


    Your right, a lousy 8 damage is better than 9 (14 if THF) plus all those other benefits. Gimme a break.
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