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  1. #1
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Default Remove the "Greater Weapon Focus" requirement for Kensai

    I want to be able to use Quivering Palm with an Esos.

    This is no more ridiculous of a request than monks having DC70 insta-kills in the first place.

    Make it so.

  2. #2
    The Hatchery Cernunan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I want to be able to use Quivering Palm with an Esos.

    This is no more ridiculous of a request than monks having DC70 insta-kills in the first place.

    Make it so.
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    While it's not difficult to figure out, it's a mindless, stupid and eye-bleeding grind. It's not too hard to figure out that is not what this game needs right now. 2-3 million karma ok, there's some pain for your gain. But really, the EPL's are not worth the pain of 6 million XP in off destinies/sphere's.
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    Community Member Dreppo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I want to be able to use Quivering Palm with an Esos.

    This is no more ridiculous of a request than monks having DC70 insta-kills in the first place.

    Make it so.
    There's this from the latest release notes:

    "NEW The Monk Feat: Quivering Palm may now be used with Monk weapons"

    Now I don't know if that means just the canonical monk weapons, or if it means any weapon you are centered with. If the latter, then your wish is granted, as it is possible to be centered with a greatsword.

  4. #4
    Community Member Cloista's Avatar
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    It isn't possible to take 'One with the Blade' and have Quivering Palm at the same time, as Quivering Palm is granted at Monk 15, while One with the Blade requires a previous enhancement with Greater Weapon Focus, which requires Fighter 8, which is what he's complaining about.

    Personally, I think it's fine as is.
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  5. #5
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    Think the blocker is Greater Weapon focus is 8 Fighter and Quivering Palm is 15 Monk. (slow typer - Cloista beat me to it)

    But The_Troll is right... not enough of the advantages of being a pure monk has been given to Kensei fighter. Multi-class just being superior DPS along with also being superior CC (and superior saves with Pali splash) is not enough... it needs to have EVERY useful Monk ability within reach along with the Kensei power. Now that Quivering Palm is no longer a useless piece of junk stuck in the 30s DCs - 40s if you maxed Wis out, 15 Monk is worth it. That means we need to make all of Kensei available in the 1-5 reach (because who cares about the weak core?), and only that Greater Weapon Focus feat prevents that.

    I'm still hoping hard that they seriously gate the PrE more strongly. 1-5 is just a joke... especially with core abilities being matched or bested in PrE trees.

    As for considering Quivering Palm being OP - I'm of mixed opinion. I'm glad it has been brought into relevancy and to have a non arcane/divine be able to insta kill on demand (because really... SP isn't much of a limit with torc, con-op, halcyon, clickies, more easily farmed consumables, etc -- and Void Strike is a lottery ticket that few will buy with this coming update). Their (Arcane/Divine) gate, though, is that EE level DCs are not as easy to reach. But how would you make getting Quivering Palm an obtainable DC that is relevant to end game content yet takes work to reach? Monk levels stop at 20 while Epic levels count as Caster levels, so even turning 1/2 to full would put it's DCs far short. Can't build it up with past lives (meaning with the classic DC - new way here you can). My only real suggestion is to classify all Monk abilities (basically grouping finishers that have DCs and abilites like Quivering Palm, Shintao abilties, Touch of Death, etc together), and then make them boostable with feats, enhancements, and other items. Also adding 2 DCs to Monk abilities per Monk past life would help add a grind tick. This would allow a bit more gating on moves like Quivering Palm, and span out into the rest of the abilities that get shelved due to unuasably low DC saves... but of course also faces the most likely blocking issue of being so massive to implement (basically it would be a whole new mechanic). We'll see how it pans out... but I personally prefer the tip to the OP over the old useless.

  6. #6
    Founder & Hero cdbd3rd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cernunan View Post

    This made me chuckle.

    Also makes me wanna shoot it - but I'd be chuckling while disassembling it.


    If it looks like an elf, acts like an elf, smells like an elf, PRANCES like an elf - it's an elf. Shoot it!
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  7. #7
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    Kensei needs to be consistent with all other enhancement trees. No other enhancement tree requires a feat with a minimum level higher than the tier of the tree. In this case, Greater Weapon Focus requires Fighter level 8, but the enhancement requiring it is only tier 4 (requiring Fighter level 4). The enhancement system is already extremely complicated. Exceptions lead to confusion and confusion needs to be eliminated within game design.

    Turbine could instead focus on making Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats meaningful. Change the Weapon Focus feats to +% hit, and Weapon Specialization feats to +% damage. Now it's worth taking 8 Fighter, not because we're 'forced' to.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    I don't agree. Weapon focus lines is part of the Kensei specialization. It makes perfect sense to be required. It may be the only prestige that requires a feat, so I would say there is something wrong with the other prestige requirements and not Kensei.

  9. #9
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    You're not getting it. DC70 melee insta-kills isnt' retarded enough. This game needs to go full-retard, that means DC 70 insta-kills with an ESOS.

    Make it so.

  10. #10
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You're not getting it. DC70 melee insta-kills isnt' retarded enough. This game needs to go full-retard, that means DC 70 insta-kills with an ESOS.

    Make it so.
    I'm not sure why you think you need an instant-kill when you can melt anything anyway...

    Also, I really hope it's only with the standard monk weapons, because instant shotting someone with a great big axe while centered with an ability called "Quivering Palm" is the most derpy thing I've ever heard.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post
    Monk levels stop at 20 while Epic levels count as Caster levels, so even turning 1/2 to full would put it's DCs far short.
    Epic levels do NOT count as caster levels. They should. They should count as caster levels for casters, Monk levels for Monks, Rogue levels for Rogues, etc., but they do not.

    Certain EDs give a caster level increase only for certain specific classes. For example, a level 28 Shiradi Sorc only has caster level 20 (less if splashed), not 28 or even 25. In Draconic or Magister, they'd only be 25, still not 28. Epic Commoner levels are nothing but a few HP and +1 to skills.

    And anyway, I'm not sure why you'd bring that up in regards to DCs. Caster level 28 or caster level 18, it doesn't effect DC at all.

  12. #12
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Epic levels do NOT count as caster levels. They should. They should count as caster levels for casters, Monk levels for Monks, Rogue levels for Rogues, etc., but they do not.

    Certain EDs give a caster level increase only for certain specific classes. For example, a level 28 Shiradi Sorc only has caster level 20 (less if splashed), not 28 or even 25. In Draconic or Magister, they'd only be 25, still not 28. Epic Commoner levels are nothing but a few HP and +1 to skills.

    And anyway, I'm not sure why you'd bring that up in regards to DCs. Caster level 28 or caster level 18, it doesn't effect DC at all.
    That's because technically epic levels are not character levels. We actually cap at 20 and not 25. If I was home where my PnP book is, I could quote it and it would explain better.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    That's because technically epic levels are not character levels.
    Yes they are. Both in pen & paper D&D, and in DDO. It's just that in DDO, they are crappy useless character levels instead of actual additional levels of your class like in pen & paper D&D.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    If I was home where my PnP book is, I could quote it and it would explain better.
    Try http://www.d20srd.org/
    Specifically, try http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm

  14. #14
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Yes they are. Both in pen & paper D&D, and in DDO. It's just that in DDO, they are crappy useless character levels instead of actual additional levels of your class like in pen & paper D&D.



    Try http://www.d20srd.org/
    Specifically, try http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm
    Its also not required to get the epic spell casting feat and their are no epic spells to prepare. In PNP attack and saves bonus do not increase beyond 20. The increases you normally would get leveling to 20 stop at 20 and you can than enter epic levels if you choose. You no longer take heroic feats, instead epic feats. Imagine how OP our characters would really be if PNP was actually translated over according to the rules. Imagine a DM allowing you to run heroic content killing heroic mobs after taking your epic level.

  15. #15
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    Aside from the quivering palm joke...

    The focus feats are bad, very bad. why should kensei suffer from crappy requirements? the feats don't do anything for the build.why are devs blind to this fact.
    Last edited by rrzaa80; 01-29-2014 at 10:56 AM.

  16. #16
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Ehh...its wisdom based. That balances it out right there even if it were possible to use it with a greataxe. Any wisdom based axe user is doing horrible dps in comparison to a strength based build, but they gain an instakill in return. Big deal.

    Also, I don't know what mob saves are like in new EE content.

    At any rate, I'm tired of saying it but I'll say it again: The weapon focus feats plague this enhancement revamp and contradict the very purpose of its undertaking.
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  17. #17
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    Did you even LOOK at the actual rules, either in your book at home, or freely available on that web site I pointed out to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    In PNP attack and saves bonus do not increase beyond 20.
    Wrong.

    the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all saving throws at every even-numbered level beyond 20th
    the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th
    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    You no longer take heroic feats, instead epic feats.
    Wrong.

    Every character gains one feat (which may be an epic or nonepic feat at the player’s choice) at every level divisible by three.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Imagine a DM allowing you to run heroic content killing heroic mobs after taking your epic level.
    Sure, that's not hard to imagine at all. You think if your character hits level 21, suddenly every monster of CR 19 or CR 1 mysteriously vanishes from the world? A group of CR 19 enemies is still a real threat to a level 21 character. And if your characters had some reason to want to slaughter hundreds of CR 1 goblins or something, who cares?

  18. #18
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Did you even LOOK at the actual rules, either in your book at home, or freely available on that web site I pointed out to you?



    Wrong.






    Wrong.





    Sure, that's not hard to imagine at all. You think if your character hits level 21, suddenly every monster of CR 19 or CR 1 mysteriously vanishes from the world? A group of CR 19 enemies is still a real threat to a level 21 character. And if your characters had some reason to want to slaughter hundreds of CR 1 goblins or something, who cares?
    Wrong

    Look at your second link and scroll down a little. They are EPIC bonus. Get where I'm going with this? We don't get EPIC bonus in DDO.

    Yes you CAN choose a non epic feat, but why would you going into epic levels? You should already have all the feats your character would want/need by 20.

    If you get off showing your "muscles" as an epic player in heroics, than have fun. In DDO we have had cap at 20 for a long time. That was considered end game and the quests and cr was set up to reflect that. As usual, adjustments aren't made when we continue to grow upwards and there is no line drawn for epic players and heroic players. In PnP it wouldn't make much sense or fun to continue running low level quests as a demi god.

    I will admit to being wrong about spell caster levels. They do increase after 20th.
    Last edited by Qhualor; 08-10-2013 at 03:48 PM.

  19. #19
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelodic View Post
    I'm not sure why you think you need an instant-kill when you can melt anything anyway...

    Also, I really hope it's only with the standard monk weapons, because instant shotting someone with a great big axe while centered with an ability called "Quivering Palm" is the most derpy thing I've ever heard.
    Somebody failed his save on sarcasm.

  20. #20
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    /signed

    Also, give me a shatter +14 augment to put in my eSoS.

    Thanks.

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