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  1. #41
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The U18 version is this:
    +8 Sacred bonus to damage for one minute

    The U19 version is this:
    Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma modifier for 120 seconds

    The U18 version was not based off of Charisma nor gave a bonus to Strength, which is more universally useful than damage. Charisma can now be used to increase tactics DCs, and the change helps in some other less common situations (such as having enough strength to pull certain levers, etc.)
    That the U18 version is not based off charisma is not quite right. It needs a base charisma score (build points, level ups and tomes, but no item or enhancement bonus):

    Tier 1 (which grants +2 damage): 14 Cha
    Tier 2 (which grants +4 damage): 16 Cha
    Tier 3 (which grants +6 damage): 18 Cha
    Tier 4 (which grants +8 damage): 20 Cha.

    Comparing these values with the U19 version shows that the new version makes it harder to get the same bonus as with the old version:

    I'll illustrate this with an example, my 18Pal/2Mnk TWF Paladin: He needs a base charisma of 18 to qualify for Divine Might 3, i.e. a bonus of +6. In order to get the same bonus from the U19 feat, he needs 12 more points of Str, i.e. a Charisma of 34, which means that you'd need to get (in comparison to the 18 base with tomes) +16 Charisma from items and enhancements.

    The numbers are a bit different for non-monk TWF and THF pallies, but it's still the same trend: You're going to need a grave investment in regards to tomes, items and enhancements to increas your Charisma to a value which is close to a level 5, 10, 15 or 20 (U18) enhancement.

    I see the benefit of a bonus which scales and the versatility of a bonus to str, but this is a downsizing of the ability and makes things harder for high-Cha-paladins who fight with dynastic falcatas or Epic Elyd Edges.
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  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The U18 version is this:
    +8 Sacred bonus to damage for one minute

    The U19 version is this:
    Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma modifier for 120 seconds

    The U18 version was not based off of Charisma nor gave a bonus to Strength, which is more universally useful than damage. Charisma can now be used to increase tactics DCs, and the change helps in some other less common situations (such as having enough strength to pull certain levers, etc.)

    There were other options, but this is the important comparison from our perspective. The changes were based on player feedback, which is not always consistent between different players.

    I could add that at various points in the design the bonus from Divine Might didn't stack with other Paladin abilities. Feedback made it clear something needed to change (feedback from both Lamannia and other feedback), but any of details could be argued in any number of ways: The only certainty is that no particular version could please everyone. No change is guaranteed permanent in a living MMO, so this could be revisited, but we don't see it as definitely wrong if some item slots are freed up for Paladins who prefer to use Divine Might (or AP freed up for those who prefer the converse). We're pretty sure that item slot isn't going to go empty.
    What tactic DC's? Even with a decent strength there are no enhancements to boost tactics for a pally. It would be awful hard to get a meaningful DC for tactics on a pally for epics.

    And I disagree that the strength is more universally useful than damage. Strength would increase to-hit as well as damage, but I think you will find most people don't have problems hitting things. It would also increase your jump and swim skills, yippee? A simple jump spell, available on a Tod belt just about everyone has, will increase your jump by 30, which should bring anybody with decent strength up to maximum jump. So not much help there. And then swim....well, epic crucible...I guess. But again, if you know you are coming up on an important part of a quest that for some reason REQUIRES you to have a good swim I'm sure an arcane would be willing to pick up merfolks for the sake of the completion of the quest. And finally, not everyone benefits from increased strength, but everyone does benefit from increased damage. Also, while the bonus to damage was not based off of charisma, it did have a base Cha requirement for each tier, meaning investing in Cha did give you more benefit from this ability than someone that did not invest in Cha. And you could make the damage based on Cha like you did with the strength, I know I would LOVE for that to happen.

    I have what I consider to be a fairly unique pally build (at least, I don't think I have ever seen another on my server) using 2 epic elyd edges with Cha as my main stat. The elyd edges use cha for damage and to hit, provide me with some positive spellpower for self-healing, give +7 cha if I didn't need a +8 Cha item (like if it would make my Cha odd), have a pretty nice proc effect (cacophony), already have silver on them, and a red slot. As a pure pally, or more recently as an 18 pally/2 monk with the exalted angel epic destiny, all my weapons have good damage on them already and I can use the red slot for another metal type.

    All in all my build does alright (not great, but hey, I'm a pally) in damage, gives me some spectacular saves making me untouchable by just about every spell thrown my way, gives me at least a 40 UMD for heal/res scrolls, and I have self-healing through renewal/heal scrolls/amazing lay on hands/unyielding sovereignty.

    Divine might helped me out a bit with damage since I could take the top tier of it, but with this change my build and builds similar to it like dex builds, will gain nothing. I hardly increased my strength at all because I didn't have to and what I did put towards strength was just to help with carrying capacity. I was able to hit about a 50 Cha with my build for a +20 modifier. I think I had around 20 strength, if that. So if I add my 20 mod to my strength my Cha still outstrips my strength and my weapons will still use Cha for damage and to hit.

    This build is by far the most versatile build I have ever done and I have filled the role of dps, kiter (angel wings FTW), spot healer, buffer (scrolls of the more helpful buffs and then 8 minute-and-a-half haste clickies saves the casters some sp), and tank with it. With this change some of my versatility goes out the door.

    As for pulling levers using strength, the only instance I can think of at late game where i could not pull a lever was Von 5, and there are plenty of others who can do it for you. Along the path to end game I could think of a few others, but again, someone in your party can probably do it for you.

    I bet a lot of people would have been just as happy if instead of doing this change you just increased the damage it provided, or added something unique to it instead of boring old strength.
    Last edited by thegreatfox; 08-15-2013 at 07:57 PM.

  3. #43
    Community Member count_spicoli's Avatar
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    ya not sure what pally player said this is what they were looking for. I had no problem with the old divine might except for the duration and the ridilculous casting time. hell I would have been happy with the duration had you made it like power surge that doesn't interrupt you attack sequence.
    But this change is unacceptable. All bonuses from pally should be either divine, sacred or deity since they are servants of their deities. Funny little skit op. got a kick out of that and is exactly to the point of it.

  4. #44
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatfox View Post
    What tactic DC's? Even with a decent strength there are no enhancements to boost tactics for a pally. It would be awful hard to get a meaningful DC for tactics on a pally for epics.
    A +8 Divine Might strength boost after the insightful gear is subtracted is a completely reasonable expectation. If you add that to the +6 str a Paladin can get in stance, it's +14 to strength, which is +7 to tactics.

    Non capstone fighters will get Power Surge (+8 str) plus 3 from tactical DC enhancements, adding up to +7 to tactics.

    I understand that not all Paladins will want to be in stance, but it should be noted that you can get the same tactical bonus as Fighters, who are known for their tactics.

    Also, there are gear choices, feats, racial enhancements, and multiclass options that can help a Paladin with their tactics. It doesn't take much character planning to at the very least figure out how to have a decent trip as a Paladin.

  5. #45
    Community Member count_spicoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    A +8 Divine Might strength boost after the insightful gear is subtracted is a completely reasonable expectation. If you add that to the +6 str a Paladin can get in stance, it's +14 to strength, which is +7 to tactics.

    Non capstone fighters will get Power Surge (+8 str) plus 3 from tactical DC enhancements, adding up to +7 to tactics.

    I understand that not all Paladins will want to be in stance, but it should be noted that you can get the same tactical bonus as Fighters, who are known for their tactics.

    Also, there are gear choices, feats, racial enhancements, and multiclass options that can help a Paladin with their tactics. It doesn't take much character planning to at the very least figure out how to have a decent trip as a Paladin.
    you are correct and this is a crime. fighters are meant to be tactians trained in the fine arts of weaponry combat. they took all the tactics dc enhancements away from fighters. So ya bacisally pally is as good and option tactically as ftr and you get LOH. Ftr tacticains are basically dead.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    A +8 Divine Might strength boost after the insightful gear is subtracted is a completely reasonable expectation. If you add that to the +6 str a Paladin can get in stance, it's +14 to strength, which is +7 to tactics.

    Non capstone fighters will get Power Surge (+8 str) plus 3 from tactical DC enhancements, adding up to +7 to tactics.

    I understand that not all Paladins will want to be in stance, but it should be noted that you can get the same tactical bonus as Fighters, who are known for their tactics.

    Also, there are gear choices, feats, racial enhancements, and multiclass options that can help a Paladin with their tactics. It doesn't take much character planning to at the very least figure out how to have a decent trip as a Paladin.
    Fighters get the *exact same* stance from stalwart. How is it even vaguely reasonable to count the paladin stance but not the fighter one? Honestly people and their BS numbers on these forums.

    And what's more with 4 paladin levels they get divine might also!

    Quote Originally Posted by count_spicoli View Post
    you are correct and this is a crime. fighters are meant to be tactians trained in the fine arts of weaponry combat. they took all the tactics dc enhancements away from fighters. So ya bacisally pally is as good and option tactically as ftr and you get LOH. Ftr tacticains are basically dead.
    Pure fighters are dead sure, just like pretty much any pure melee, but majority fighter build are going to be even more common. You can get everything worth getting from paladin with 4 levels.
    Last edited by SerPounce; 08-15-2013 at 09:11 PM.
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  7. #47
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Thanks Varg for clarifying, I warmed up to it and actually kinda like it.
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  8. #48
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    Fighters get the *exact same* stance from stalwart. How is it even vaguely reasonable to count the paladin stance but not the fighter one? Honestly people and their BS numbers on these forums.

    And what's more with 4 paladin levels they get divine might also!



    Pure fighters are dead sure, just like pretty much any pure melee, but majority fighter build are going to be even more common. You can get everything worth getting from paladin with 4 levels.
    Mmhmm add in weak capstones and you can see how people that want pure builds think this change sucks.
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  9. #49
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    Fighters get the *exact same* stance from stalwart. How is it even vaguely reasonable to count the paladin stance but not the fighter one? Honestly people and their BS numbers on these forums.

    And what's more with 4 paladin levels they get divine might also!
    Well this is a good point. I forgot to factor in the additional +3 to tactics fighters can get from stance. It doesn't change the original point, however, which is that Paladins can do alright compared to other melee classes when it comes to tactical DCs.

    And what's more, with 2 levels of fighter they get +3 to their tactical DCs also!

    Speaking of this, can we please move all useful class abilities to the capstone? I don't like to multiclass and therefore I think it's important to eliminate it as an option from the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post

    You can get everything worth getting from paladin with 4 levels.
    Unless you want defensive stances, self healing, or 10% doublestrike. Can't see any reason for any of that nonsense...

    I'm glad we are all seeing the big picture here.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 08-15-2013 at 11:49 PM.

  10. #50
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by count_spicoli View Post
    you are correct and this is a crime. fighters are meant to be tactians trained in the fine arts of weaponry combat. they took all the tactics dc enhancements away from fighters. So ya bacisally pally is as good and option tactically as ftr and you get LOH. Ftr tacticains are basically dead.
    So wait, fighter tacticians are dead because of they don't get the +1 per tier of Kensai anymore? Interesting way of looking at that whole thing.

    To address the topic of the thread, I'm currently in favor of changing Divine Might to a selectable choice between a morale strength bonus or untyped damage bonus. I want everybody to be happy here. I certainly do not want to see the players who are smart enough to use tactics get punished by any hasty changes based on the uproar in the forums, and I would prefer the bonuses stacked with insight gear.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 08-15-2013 at 11:59 PM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    So wait, fighter tacticians are dead because of they don't get the +1 per tier of Kensai anymore? Interesting way of looking at that whole thing.
    Also, fighters get WAY more feats than any other class for free. Life isn't all about narrow scoping a view on a class. This + to strength only is kind of a mixed bag imo. If you multiclass, I could see it. If you multiclass with a pdk, I can't see it, because tbh, that is where a lot of +cha bits are which are a big part of being a paladin. I agree with the other sentiment that it would be nice to get it for strength or char, not just strength, just like the many other multi-choices. I disagree that fighters are gimps, or that the only way to get use out of the + for strength is multiclassing.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    To address the topic of the thread, I'm currently in favor of changing Divine Might to a selectable choice between a morale strength bonus or untyped damage bonus. I want everybody to be happy here. I certainly do not want to see the players who are smart enough to use tactics get punished by any hasty changes based on the uproar in the forums, and I would prefer the bonuses stacked with insight gear.
    Personally, I'd rather the Devs had done two things.

    First, if they kept Divine Might closer to the pnp version (add your Charisma bonus to your weapon damage) but sped up the casting time and extended the duration.

    Second, if the Devs wanted to give Paladins something to boost STR in general or help with Tactics, they could have created a new enhancement. It's not like they went out of their way to make new enhancements for paladins in the trees. They definitely didn't do anything (besides Divine Might) to boost general damage from paladins (and almost everyone has agreed the Lamannia version actually takes damage away from paladins). Compare trees from other melee classes that got a bunch of goodies for general attacks and what paladins got. Yes, Paladins are a bit clicky intense, but the only really new damage thing paladins got was the horrible Holy Retribution and it's a tier 5 ability.

  13. #53
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Thanks Varg for clarifying, I warmed up to it and actually kinda like it.
    Yeah because it works for your 12 fighter 6 monk 2 paladin build which is exactly who divine might is for now. Pure paladins do not have feats to really invest in the tactics without hurting their dps or other aspects of their build so really this all about multi class strength based paladins or fighters or other classes which seems kind of silly because that is such a small subset of paladins.
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  14. #54
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    If Divine Might provided a sacred melee damage bonus and a sacred tactics bonus based on the Paladin's CHA bonus, then it would address:

    * Characters that use a stat other than STR for damage.
    * Still provide an incentive to slot Insightful gear associated with your melee damage stat.
    * Stack with Defender Paladin abilities.

    That's a solution for all of the major complaints brought up in this thread.
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  15. #55
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    So pallies are a spalsh-class now and nothing more? I miss anything else?

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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Hopefully that player feedback came from players that have never played a paladin because anyone who has successfully played the class would never suggest this. This is why Lama shouldn't be restricted to those who only bought the expansion.
    dont blame the players who played during the closed beta. i dont know where varg is getting his information, but it certainly was not the Lam forums. we have fought this tooth and nail for weeks. and been ignored the entire time. in fact, as far as paladins and sword and board tanks go, the devs have not bothered replying to anything as far as i can recall before today. they had their heads shoved too far up the monks hind ends to give us the time of day. i have yet to see a poster who was in favor of this change. it has been universally despised. so dont believe that line of **** you were served.

    i challenge Varg to link us to a post on the Lam servers that was in favor of this. Go on Varg. show us. and when you do, i will link you 40+ posts of people saying "hey devs. we HATE this change."

    but hey, why listen to us? what do we know about this game? clearly nothing. only the devs have the intelligence and understanding of game mechanics required to see the required nerfs for the completely out of balance and over powered paladins. especially those ridiculous S&B tanks. they were WAY too op and were being played by WAY too many people. and we were blind to this. thank goodness the dev's were here to nerf them and bring them back in line with the rest of the classes.

    and while you are at it dev's paladins are still getting WAY too many feats. you think you can reduce their feats by 2? maybe 3?
    Last edited by Alcedes; 08-16-2013 at 10:01 AM.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    So pallies are a spalsh-class now and nothing more? I miss anything else?
    Not new, but yes.

    I've been arguing with people in the Lamannia forums to buff Pure Paladins since before it went into Beta. The argument against buffing Pure Paladins in anyway is because the Paladin class is so good as a few levels splash that no one should play a pure paladin.

    So I'm sure all the great things that the Devs had heard about the Paladin trees were people who only use Paladins as a splash. And that's why the Devs have completely ignored helping pure paladins. Or at least listen to the people who want to buff pure paladins.
    Last edited by oradafu; 08-16-2013 at 11:01 AM.

  19. #59
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    ...this all about multi class strength based paladins or fighters or other classes which seems kind of silly because that is such a small subset of paladins.
    This statement is assumptive unless you are secretly referencing data about how many Paladins are pure class and how many aren't.

    I agree that Paladins could use a couple bonus feats.

    As much as I would like to see the relentless pure Paladin lobbying group succeed in hurting Paladin as a multiclass option, I would again point out that the developers can make it so that the tacticians and non tacticians are both happy by having Divine Might be a choice between a morale strength boost and untyped damage boost.

  20. #60
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    If Divine Might provided a sacred melee damage bonus and a sacred tactics bonus based on the Paladin's CHA bonus, then it would address:

    * Characters that use a stat other than STR for damage.
    * Still provide an incentive to slot Insightful gear associated with your melee damage stat.
    * Stack with Defender Paladin abilities.

    That's a solution for all of the major complaints brought up in this thread.
    I like this too
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 08-16-2013 at 12:47 PM.

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