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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    As per the release notes, Divine might is now an insight bonus. This essentially nullifies insightful strength gear.

    Not good.
    Really dumb change and a double nerf. First add to STR instead of damage and then not stack with other insight bonus. Guess this will also be in the Warpriest tree in all its sucking glory.

    Please revert this change and make just make it a bonus to damage. Either 2/4/6 to damage or half of charisma bonus sounds about right.

  2. #22
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    Nice going. Essentially, this means that either (a) all insight STR bonus items (and what melee doesn't have or need them) are now useless on divine melee characters (Paladins, warpriests), or (b) they've made it a near-useless enhancement line.

    On top of that, the very nature of the enhancement suggests that a 'sacred' bonus is more appropriate anyway.

    I just don't get the rationale for this and other changes. Monks, who were already the class that could do everything, get yet more buffs, while Paladins (and presumably melee clerics) get yet another round of kicks to the groin.

    Turbine really should take the time to explain decisions like this. Either it's a mistake, in which case realize the mistake and fix it, or it's deliberate, in which case state why, and understand the implications to those classes. Update after update, the changes almost make it seem like they WANT to deter people from playing certain classes -- either that, or they simply have lost touch with why people play those classes, and what they enjoy about them. i hate to jump to those conclusions, because they aren't constructive, but after seeing multiple updates, I am left with no other explanation.

    It would be nice to see some response or discussion from Turbine about things like this, but I suppose that is wishful thinking.

  3. #23
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    The U18 version is this:
    +8 Sacred bonus to damage for one minute

    The U19 version is this:
    Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma modifier for 120 seconds

    The U18 version was not based off of Charisma nor gave a bonus to Strength, which is more universally useful than damage. Charisma can now be used to increase tactics DCs, and the change helps in some other less common situations (such as having enough strength to pull certain levers, etc.)

    There were other options, but this is the important comparison from our perspective. The changes were based on player feedback, which is not always consistent between different players.

    I could add that at various points in the design the bonus from Divine Might didn't stack with other Paladin abilities. Feedback made it clear something needed to change (feedback from both Lamannia and other feedback), but any of details could be argued in any number of ways: The only certainty is that no particular version could please everyone. No change is guaranteed permanent in a living MMO, so this could be revisited, but we don't see it as definitely wrong if some item slots are freed up for Paladins who prefer to use Divine Might (or AP freed up for those who prefer the converse). We're pretty sure that item slot isn't going to go empty.
    Last edited by Vargouille; 08-15-2013 at 12:15 PM.

  4. #24
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The U18 version is this:
    +8 Sacred bonus to damage for one minute

    The U19 version is this:
    Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma modifier for 120 seconds

    The U18 version was not based off of Charisma nor gave a bonus to Strength, which is more universally useful than damage. Charisma can now be used to increase tactics DCs, and the change helps in some other less common situations (such as having enough strength to pull certain levers, etc.)

    There were other options, but this is the important comparison from our perspective. The changes were based on player feedback, which is not always consistent between different players.

    I could add that at various points in the design the bonus from Divine Might didn't stack with other Paladin abilities. Feedback made it clear something needed to change (feedback from both Lamannia and other feedback), but any of details could be argued in any number of ways: The only certainty is that no particular version could please everyone. No change is guaranteed permanent in a living MMO, so this could be revisited, but we don't see it as definitely wrong if some item slots are freed up for Paladins who prefer to use Divine Might (or AP freed up for those who prefer the converse).
    Sounds reasonable.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The U18 version is this:
    +8 Sacred bonus to damage for one minute

    The U19 version is this:
    Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma modifier for 120 seconds

    The U18 version was not based off of Charisma nor gave a bonus to Strength, which is more universally useful than damage. Charisma can now be used to increase tactics DCs, and the change helps in some other less common situations (such as having enough strength to pull certain levers, etc.)

    There were other options, but this is the important comparison from our perspective. The changes were based on player feedback, which is not always consistent between different players.

    I could add that at various points in the design the bonus from Divine Might didn't stack with other Paladin abilities. Feedback made it clear something needed to change (feedback from both Lamannia and other feedback), but any of details could be argued in any number of ways: The only certainty is that no particular version could please everyone. No change is guaranteed permanent in a living MMO, so this could be revisited, but we don't see it as definitely wrong if some item slots are freed up for Paladins who prefer to use Divine Might (or AP freed up for those who prefer the converse). We're pretty sure that item slot isn't going to go empty.
    Except it takes 42 CHA to get that +8 damage back.

    Except Divine Might as STR only bonus doesn't help none STR builds, like when multiclassing into the new Purple Dragon Knight or various multiclass Dex builds.

    Except Pure Paladins aren't really built for Tactics, that's more for multiclass builds.

    Except that Pure paladins need more gear to boost STR, and cutting out the very common Insight stacking bonus hurts them more than other classes.

    Except that there's the option (at least no one has given a good reason not to use this option) of having the Sacred Defender stance as a Moral Bonus and keeping Divine Might as a Sacred Bonus. Since Sacred Defender doesn't stack with the Rage spell and Paladins can't multiclass into Bards, why can't the Sacred Defender stance be Moral?

  6. #26
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Except it takes 42 CHA to get that +8 damage back.

    Except Divine Might as STR only bonus doesn't help none STR builds, like when multiclassing into the new Purple Dragon Knight or various multiclass Dex builds.

    Except Pure Paladins aren't really built for Tactics, that's more for multiclass builds.

    Except that Pure paladins need more gear to boost STR, and cutting out the very common Insight stacking bonus hurts them more than other classes.

    Except that there's the option (at least no one has given a good reason not to use this option) of having the Sacred Defender stance as a Moral Bonus and keeping Divine Might as a Sacred Bonus. Since Sacred Defender doesn't stack with the Rage spell and Paladins can't multiclass into Bards, why can't the Sacred Defender stance be Moral?
    How are you getting 42 CHA?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The U18 version is this:
    +8 Sacred bonus to damage for one minute

    The U19 version is this:
    Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma modifier for 120 seconds

    The U18 version was not based off of Charisma nor gave a bonus to Strength, which is more universally useful than damage. Charisma can now be used to increase tactics DCs, and the change helps in some other less common situations (such as having enough strength to pull certain levers, etc.)

    There were other options, but this is the important comparison from our perspective. The changes were based on player feedback, which is not always consistent between different players.

    I could add that at various points in the design the bonus from Divine Might didn't stack with other Paladin abilities. Feedback made it clear something needed to change (feedback from both Lamannia and other feedback), but any of details could be argued in any number of ways: The only certainty is that no particular version could please everyone. No change is guaranteed permanent in a living MMO, so this could be revisited, but we don't see it as definitely wrong if some item slots are freed up for Paladins who prefer to use Divine Might (or AP freed up for those who prefer the converse). We're pretty sure that item slot isn't going to go empty.
    What other paladin abilities give a sacred bonus to strength.

    Divine might is a great example of the problems with the inconsistent (and seemingly arbitrary) class level requirements for key abilities. It takes 8-12 levels of fighter to get the key fighter abilities (+1 crit range and power surge), but only 2-4 levels of paladin (depending on if you have another source of turn undead). So guess what, everyone is going to have 8-12 levels of fighter and 4 levels of paladin (including me, as much as it pains me to turn my 3.5 year old paladin into a fighter).

    Divine might should be the lvl 12 or lvl 18 core ability for KotC and it should stack with everything.
    Last edited by SerPounce; 08-15-2013 at 01:40 PM.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    How are you getting 42 CHA?
    42 is a +11 bonus, +3 of that doesn't stack with insightful str gear, so effectively +8.

    [edit]eh.. brainfart, see oradafu below. I blame being up all night with the baby.
    Last edited by SerPounce; 08-15-2013 at 02:05 PM.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    How are you getting 42 CHA?
    I'm not quite sure exactly what you are asking.

    If you are asking, how did I figure out how to get the +8 damage from 42 CHA, it's because 42 CHA gives a +16 modifier to STR which in turn gives the +8 damage that pre-Shadowfell Divine Might IV gives.

    If you are asking, how can I get up to 42 CHA, I personally haven't tried because I haven't needed to get it that high yet. I don't foresee anyway of getting 42 CHA by level 20 to benefit from the +8 damage that we get from pre-Shadowfell Divine Might IV. I can see fairly safe ways of getting to 28 to 35 by level 25 without completely gimping a paladin. But going past 35 CHA on a pure paladin starts hurting really bad, from what I can tell. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I don't see a way of doing it without hampering something else.
    Last edited by oradafu; 08-15-2013 at 01:59 PM. Reason: number slip..28 not 38

  10. #30
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    42 is a +11 bonus, +3 of that doesn't stack with insightful str gear, so effectively +8.
    Ah, okay. So Turbine didn't make this ability much more powerful than it is on Live, they just took away the base charisma requirement and made it cheaper. I suppose that works.... :S

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    Ah, okay. So Turbine didn't make this ability much more powerful than it is on Live, they just took away the base charisma requirement and made it cheaper. I suppose that works.... :S
    CHA 16 (base) +4 (tome) +12 (gear) =32

    32<42

    Sure you can start throwing in temp bonuses, enhancement points, etc, but getting 42 sustainable cha requires considerable sacrifice.


    Basically this change is really good for 2HF fighters that use tactics, a net neutral for 2HF paladins, a loss for S&B and 2WF paladins, and devastating paladins that want to use a non-strength stat for damage (dex, cha, con)
    Last edited by SerPounce; 08-15-2013 at 02:09 PM.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The U18 version is this:
    +8 Sacred bonus to damage for one minute

    The U19 version is this:
    Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma modifier for 120 seconds

    The U18 version was not based off of Charisma nor gave a bonus to Strength, which is more universally useful than damage. Charisma can now be used to increase tactics DCs, and the change helps in some other less common situations (such as having enough strength to pull certain levers, etc.)

    There were other options, but this is the important comparison from our perspective. The changes were based on player feedback, which is not always consistent between different players.

    I could add that at various points in the design the bonus from Divine Might didn't stack with other Paladin abilities. Feedback made it clear something needed to change (feedback from both Lamannia and other feedback), but any of details could be argued in any number of ways: The only certainty is that no particular version could please everyone. No change is guaranteed permanent in a living MMO, so this could be revisited, but we don't see it as definitely wrong if some item slots are freed up for Paladins who prefer to use Divine Might (or AP freed up for those who prefer the converse). We're pretty sure that item slot isn't going to go empty.
    Thanks for the explanation. I may not completely agree the rationale, or like the expected impact, but thanks for taking the time to respond!

  13. #33
    Community Member ahpook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    I'm not quite sure exactly what you are asking.

    If you are asking, how did I figure out how to get the +8 damage from 42 CHA, it's because 42 CHA gives a +16 modifier to STR which in turn gives the +8 damage that pre-Shadowfell Divine Might IV gives.
    And with that math if you want to make up for the loss of the insight str bonus from equipment ( since they don't stack ) you need another +3 to your cha modifier or 48 CHA. That is ridiculous. Thankfully my pally only used Divine Might III so he will only need 40 CHA to maintain his current damage benefit.

    Let me just add for Vargouille's sake: Boo. This was not a nerf that Pallys needed. Previously pallys only needed a CHA of 20 to qualify for DM IV and +8 dmg. With equipment and enhancements on that 20 you are looking at likely a 34 CHA for a pally. That means a CHA mod of 12. That equates to only a +6 dmg boost. Clearly a NERF without even taking into account the non-stacking with insight bonus equip.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The changes were based on player feedback, which is not always consistent between different players.
    You shouldn't pass the buck like that. The player feedback was "Divine Might should stack with Sacred Defender stance." Period. No player ever suggested making Divine Might NOT stack with items. That was all devs.

    What's the official position on making the stance a morale bonus and divine might back to sacred so that all pally damage stacks with itself and with gear, as it's supposed to?

  15. #35
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    CHA 16 (base) +4 (tome) +12 (gear) =32

    32<42
    Boycotting ship buffs?

    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    ...devastating paladins that want to use a non-strength stat for damage (dex, cha, con)
    This is actually a valid point. Since raising con by x amount through a boost would be silly, having the ability to select either a damage option or the strength boost would be nice for those types of builds.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 08-15-2013 at 02:48 PM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The U18 version is this:
    +8 Sacred bonus to damage for one minute

    The U19 version is this:
    Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma modifier for 120 seconds

    The U18 version was not based off of Charisma nor gave a bonus to Strength, which is more universally useful than damage. Charisma can now be used to increase tactics DCs, and the change helps in some other less common situations (such as having enough strength to pull certain levers, etc.)

    There were other options, but this is the important comparison from our perspective. The changes were based on player feedback, which is not always consistent between different players.

    I could add that at various points in the design the bonus from Divine Might didn't stack with other Paladin abilities. Feedback made it clear something needed to change (feedback from both Lamannia and other feedback), but any of details could be argued in any number of ways: The only certainty is that no particular version could please everyone. No change is guaranteed permanent in a living MMO, so this could be revisited, but we don't see it as definitely wrong if some item slots are freed up for Paladins who prefer to use Divine Might (or AP freed up for those who prefer the converse). We're pretty sure that item slot isn't going to go empty.
    Wow, another huge Nerf for my 2WF Pally... You know a dex build ....
    This needs to be revisited and IMHO changed back ASAP.
    Last edited by GoldyGopher; 08-15-2013 at 02:48 PM. Reason: Typo

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  17. #37
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The U18 version is this:
    +8 Sacred bonus to damage for one minute

    The U19 version is this:
    Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma modifier for 120 seconds

    The U18 version was not based off of Charisma nor gave a bonus to Strength, which is more universally useful than damage. Charisma can now be used to increase tactics DCs, and the change helps in some other less common situations (such as having enough strength to pull certain levers, etc.)

    There were other options, but this is the important comparison from our perspective. The changes were based on player feedback, which is not always consistent between different players.

    I could add that at various points in the design the bonus from Divine Might didn't stack with other Paladin abilities. Feedback made it clear something needed to change (feedback from both Lamannia and other feedback), but any of details could be argued in any number of ways: The only certainty is that no particular version could please everyone. No change is guaranteed permanent in a living MMO, so this could be revisited, but we don't see it as definitely wrong if some item slots are freed up for Paladins who prefer to use Divine Might (or AP freed up for those who prefer the converse). We're pretty sure that item slot isn't going to go empty.
    Hopefully that player feedback came from players that have never played a paladin because anyone who has successfully played the class would never suggest this. This is why Lama shouldn't be restricted to those who only bought the expansion.

    The way I see it, enhancements should always stack with gear and have their proper stacking bonus. I wouldn't be pleased if I had to spend AP on DM that requires a bigger investment somewhere else just to get anything meaningf:ul out of it and to unlock something in the tree that may be required that I would really want. Take the current AP on barbarian will saves that doesn't stack with GH as an example. Simply put, this change requires MORE investment to get MOST or ALL out of the enhancement.

  18. #38
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    or you could just make a:

    TIER 1
    adds 4 (insightful) strength OR your charisma bonus to (insightful) strength whichever is higher

    TIER 2
    adds 8 (insightful) strength OR your charisma bonus to (insightful) strength whichever is higher

    TIER 3
    adds 12 (insightful) strength OR your charisma bonus to (insightful) strength whichever is higher

    isn't this better ? who has low charisma can spend more ap to get up to +6dmg
    who has very high charisma can spare ap and get up to the old achievable +8dmg or better

  19. #39
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The U18 version is this:
    +8 Sacred bonus to damage for one minute

    The U19 version is this:
    Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma modifier for 120 seconds

    The U18 version was not based off of Charisma nor gave a bonus to Strength, which is more universally useful than damage. Charisma can now be used to increase tactics DCs, and the change helps in some other less common situations (such as having enough strength to pull certain levers, etc.)

    There were other options, but this is the important comparison from our perspective. The changes were based on player feedback, which is not always consistent between different players.

    I could add that at various points in the design the bonus from Divine Might didn't stack with other Paladin abilities. Feedback made it clear something needed to change (feedback from both Lamannia and other feedback), but any of details could be argued in any number of ways: The only certainty is that no particular version could please everyone. No change is guaranteed permanent in a living MMO, so this could be revisited, but we don't see it as definitely wrong if some item slots are freed up for Paladins who prefer to use Divine Might (or AP freed up for those who prefer the converse). We're pretty sure that item slot isn't going to go empty.
    What was always interesting about this change is 1. for some reason you decided to nerf dex based paladin builds which quite frankly did not need nerfing. 2. you buffed strength based tactics at the expense of tactics using other ability scores like stunning fist. 3. 2 Paladin splash makes a ton of sense for a fighter or etc.

    Edit: oh and this is not a well done change vargoiulle as it limits build diversity and restricts options and I do not know what players you heard from but this is lousy.
    Last edited by maddmatt70; 08-15-2013 at 03:24 PM.
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  20. #40
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The U18 version is this:
    +8 Sacred bonus to damage for one minute

    The U19 version is this:
    Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma modifier for 120 seconds

    The U18 version was not based off of Charisma nor gave a bonus to Strength, which is more universally useful than damage. Charisma can now be used to increase tactics DCs, and the change helps in some other less common situations (such as having enough strength to pull certain levers, etc.)

    There were other options, but this is the important comparison from our perspective. The changes were based on player feedback, which is not always consistent between different players.

    I could add that at various points in the design the bonus from Divine Might didn't stack with other Paladin abilities. Feedback made it clear something needed to change (feedback from both Lamannia and other feedback), but any of details could be argued in any number of ways: The only certainty is that no particular version could please everyone. No change is guaranteed permanent in a living MMO, so this could be revisited, but we don't see it as definitely wrong if some item slots are freed up for Paladins who prefer to use Divine Might (or AP freed up for those who prefer the converse). We're pretty sure that item slot isn't going to go empty.

    You all listened to the wrong people... this move is beyond ....*pinches lips tightly*
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