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Thread: S&B Tanking...

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    Default S&B Tanking...

    So I did the best I could, and I am sure there are at least a few of you who did the same. Did anyone come up with a build that could output enough DPS with S&B to maintain aggro against an above average DPS? If so, was anyone able to achieve it with a non multi class build? And did you achieve this without the 'Intolerance' buff from Unyielding Sentinel? I would be interested in hearing what you guys tried that was successful.

    The one thing I wanted to try but did not get around to was a Dwarf Paladin. There is some damage potential in that but I do not think it would be nearly enough. Maybe someone did try this.

    The other part of this (since I suspect that there will not be many who did achieve this goal) what is wrong with tanking and threat generation from your perspective? How could Turbine fix this issue?

    Below, I will provide my suggestions for possible solutions. These are stand-alone solutions and utilizing any more than 1 of them would just be overpowered)

    1) Incite needs to be reduced (around 1500% is possible) to a more reasonable number. If a S&B tank generates threat 1:15 (1500%) compared to other players, Turbine cannot really increase their DPS much. Otherwise tanking would become a trivial task with no challenge whatsoever. By reducing the amount of Incite bonuses down to around 300-500%, you now have room to allow an increase in DPS for tanks without making their threat generation way overpowered.

    2) Rework the tanking trees to cost much less so that a tank can then have points left over to work up some dps in other trees. This one does not need an explanation. However at the same time, you run the risk of a Fighter or Paladin going full Sacred Defender and getting ALMOST their entire DPS prestige (respectively) as well. This probably the worst solution I have.

    3) Add some effects into the Tanking trees that will produce DPS.

    a) Something that puts a PBAoE proc (like a high damage fireball type effect that deals physical/untyped damage) centered around the caster. Apply this enhancement to the Tank's armor and give it like a 5% proc rate. The proc damage could be based on the type of armor being worn (pajama tanks would do the minimum damage, while full plate tanks would get full damage). This encourages a tank to focus on aggro as his DPS is awarded based on keeping mobs attacking him.

    b) Something that puts a guard on the tanks shield. 100% chance of doing X damage every time struck. The effect would do physical damage or possibly untyped, based on the type of shield. THF/TWF/Buckler would be the bottom end of the damage dealt, while a Tower Shield would deal the highest damage back.

    c) Something that allows a tank to add percentage of his PRR and/or AC to his attack bonus/damage rolls. That bonus again would be based on the type of armor worn and the type of shield worn.


    What are your thoughts and suggestions?
    Last edited by Alcedes; 08-09-2013 at 09:58 AM.

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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcedes View Post
    What are your thoughts and suggestions?
    let me start with the premise that the BEST tanks in the game should be people wearing armor and holding shields. They should have the most threat, the most defense, and their damage can't be complete junk for that other 99% of the game.

    I'm not saying that there shouldn't be other tank options, there should be, but S&B guy in armor should be significantly the best option.

    Post enh pass it's not.

    - DPS is weak
    - Not the highest threat, "monks" FTW.
    - I'm pretty sure it can only eek out a tad more PRR over "monk" tanks and on S&B evasion tanks the "monk" can get with 3% damage mitigation. Regardless it's not enough to be significant.
    - Armor Class is the defender builds big advantage and that is useless in EE.

    I'm not sure what specifically is needed for them not to be terrible, but start with what they should be able to do best and change things until they are at that point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I'm not sure what specifically is needed for them not to be terrible, but start with what they should be able to do best and change things until they are at that point.
    ^^^ This!

    such a simple approach. yet so perfect.

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    The only s&b I've seen still able to hold aggro was a dragonmarked horc with a efang and every other peice of incite he could get. This was gear, racial enhancments, intolerant blow, etc. (Think the build is 18fighter 2 pally). However if you fury shotted a little too soon you still had aggro, seems like two intolerant blow cycles was the magic number for that.

    IMO

    Nothing can be done, the concept of a s&b tank has be completely broken in ddo. You can't bump their dps because if they could do good dps their high prr saves etc would probably be op. Boosting incite doesn't really work because lets say
    50 per swing

    50*1500= 75000

    Sounds like a lot but with the slow swing speed compared to the speed epic moment dps can rack up it's not going to be enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    50*1500= 75000
    1500% is not 50 * 1500.

    1500% would be 50 * 15


    and 50 is low DPS for even a pure s&b tank. 150 is a more reasonable.

    so it would be like 150 * 15 = 2,250

    also worth mentioning, is that Intolerance only lasts a few seconds and tanks have very limited uses (especially fighters!) so that is not a guaranteed bonus. So of the 1500% generation, 1000% is not maintainable


    either way, despite your math being a bit off, your points are accurate.

  6. #6
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcedes View Post
    1500% is not 50 * 1500.

    1500% would be 50 * 15


    and 50 is low DPS for even a pure s&b tank. 150 is a more reasonable.

    so it would be like 150 * 15 = 2,250

    also worth mentioning, is that Intolerance only lasts a few seconds and tanks have very limited uses (especially fighters!) so that is not a guaranteed bonus. So of the 1500% generation, 1000% is not maintainable


    either way, despite your math being a bit off, your points are accurate.
    lol

    yup I screwed up the math, it's actually even worse, sigh.

    I'm curious how you got to 150 on a s&b non crit though. They likely won't be blitzing so that's out and adrenaline doesn't work with dos etc.

    Lets say real high str that most probably won't have
    70 str which would be a 30 mod to dmg
    good hope +2
    dream visor +5
    artifact +4
    weapon enhancment 8
    2[d10] base
    1[d10] deadly

    I get 52-79 per swing with that math, so yeah 50 is low side but it's not 150.
    Last edited by Charononus; 08-09-2013 at 10:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    it's actually even worse, sigh.
    well think about the poor fighter! they will have far fewer smite evil's to work with! so once their out of Intolerance uses they are going to be able to generate 300-500% MAX

    150 * 5 = 750


    if your DPS cannot maintain DPS above 750, you have bigger issues in the group.

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    Default Maybe #3

    Quote Originally Posted by Alcedes View Post
    So I did the best I could, and I am sure there are at least a few of you who did the same. Did anyone come up with a build that could output enough DPS with S&B to maintain aggro against an above average DPS? If so, was anyone able to achieve it with a non multi class build? And did you achieve this without the 'Intolerance' buff from Unyielding Sentinel? I would be interested in hearing what you guys tried that was successful.

    The one thing I wanted to try but did not get around to was a Dwarf Paladin. There is some damage potential in that but I do not think it would be nearly enough. Maybe someone did try this.

    The other part of this (since I suspect that there will not be many who did achieve this goal) what is wrong with tanking and threat generation from your perspective? How could Turbine fix this issue?

    Below, I will provide my suggestions for possible solutions. These are stand-alone solutions and utilizing any more than 1 of them would just be overpowered)

    1) Incite needs to be reduced (around 1500% is possible) to a more reasonable number. If a S&B tank generates threat 1:15 (1500%) compared to other players, Turbine cannot really increase their DPS much. Otherwise tanking would become a trivial task with no challenge whatsoever. By reducing the amount of Incite bonuses down to around 300-500%, you now have room to allow an increase in DPS for tanks without making their threat generation way overpowered.

    2) Rework the tanking trees to cost much less so that a tank can then have points left over to work up some dps in other trees. This one does not need an explanation. However at the same time, you run the risk of a Fighter or Paladin going full Sacred Defender and getting ALMOST their entire DPS prestige (respectively) as well. This probably the worst solution I have.

    3) Add some effects into the Tanking trees that will produce DPS.

    a) Something that puts a PBAoE proc (like a high damage fireball type effect that deals physical/untyped damage) centered around the caster. Apply this enhancement to the Tank's armor and give it like a 5% proc rate. The proc damage could be based on the type of armor being worn (pajama tanks would do the minimum damage, while full plate tanks would get full damage). This encourages a tank to focus on aggro as his DPS is awarded based on keeping mobs attacking him.

    b) Something that puts a guard on the tanks shield. 100% chance of doing X damage every time struck. The effect would do physical damage or possibly untyped, based on the type of shield. THF/TWF/Buckler would be the bottom end of the damage dealt, while a Tower Shield would deal the highest damage back.

    c) Something that allows a tank to add percentage of his PRR and/or AC to his attack bonus/damage rolls. That bonus again would be based on the type of armor worn and the type of shield worn.


    What are your thoughts and suggestions?
    I don't agree with your initial premise...details below. But regarding #3, if maybe there was some stance added to Unyielding Sentinel that you could switch to once per rest...something that could get you DPS'ing at maybe 1/2 of what a LD or Fury DPS'r can do.??...but mandatory could not have shield in hand. What do you think?

    Why I disagree with premise: Tanking has always been a tough build to do right. Nobody was good enough without the proper gear and feats and enhancements and knowledge....each of those.

    Recommendations to becoming a better Tank:
    A fighter tank should have the haste boost IV enhancements.
    The three dragonmarks of the sentenal with an eFang *or* incite gear covering 10% + 15% + 20%
    Skill "Intimidate" maxed out... for most content, intim does not need to be much more than 75'ish...With the right gear you can reach the mid 90's...With the right gear and buffs, low 100's
    As a build choice, Half Elf gets another intimidate clicky on a seperate cooldown. <--that's amazing btw.
    A players personal skill to tank.

    In essence, there are many ways to build your tank into a better tank. What's bothersome and highlighted often on these boards is the fact that tanking is no longer needed in most content--which is disheartening for those players that have sunk considerable time to meet the requirements of building and playing a good tank. (to me, considerable time = 1000+ hours).

    I'm tripple-guessing my 1000+ hours, so breaking it down to maybe alleviate my personal disbelief:
    A TR run takes me ~50 hrs per.
    Each raid takes on average 45 minutes per.
    Running Epic content for fun or favor or gear takes on average 30 minutes per.
    Administration of character takes me ~1 hour per month.

    So this tank and my CC wizard I've dumped the most time into....I'm at 8 playable characters now (7 at level 25 with good gear and ED's) and 4 bank toons.
    The tank character has run:
    3 TRs =~150 hours
    Maybe 300 raids =~225 hours
    Maybe 1000 Epic quests =~500 hours <--feels really low to me, but I can't say for sure (it all gets blurry!)
    Adaministration =~66 hours

    as an aside, I've been playing at least 25 hours per week since early 2008 which equates to ~7000 hours ...ouch! I'm thinking my 1000+ hours is accurate.

  9. #9
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    The only s&b I've seen still able to hold aggro was a dragonmarked horc with a efang and every other peice of incite he could get. This was gear, racial enhancments, intolerant blow, etc. (Think the build is 18fighter 2 pally). However if you fury shotted a little too soon you still had aggro, seems like two intolerant blow cycles was the magic number for that.

    IMO

    Nothing can be done, the concept of a s&b tank has be completely broken in ddo. You can't bump their dps because if they could do good dps their high prr saves etc would probably be op. Boosting incite doesn't really work because lets say
    50 per swing

    50*1500= 75000

    Sounds like a lot but with the slow swing speed compared to the speed epic moment dps can rack up it's not going to be enough.
    Naw. First of all c fang sucks better to have 15%, 20%, 30% equipped in other places and use a better weapon. I just do not see what all the jibber is about currently on live it is not too hard to hold aggro and if you lose it you can get it back. Not really seeing how lammania is any different.

    On live I have an 18 pally 2 monk drow S&B that is dex based and a dwarf S&B pure fighter. My pally had a little issue but would use intim to get things back. I never used intolerant blow or had it even because it was not necessary. Not seeing much difference on lammania. On my dwarf fighter I am going with kensai 5 and I get the handy new two handed fighting feat so if anything I will gain in hate. My pally I decided to change for now, but really as a drow or elf I could look to get dex to damage which would boost things.
    Last edited by maddmatt70; 08-09-2013 at 04:46 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Naw. First of all c fang sucks better to have 15%, 20%, 30% equipped in other places and use a better weapon. I just do not see what all the jibber is about currently on live it is not too hard to hold aggro and if you lose it you can get it back. Not really seeing how lammania is any different.

    On live I have an 18 pally 2 monk drow S&B that is dex based and a dwarf S&B pure fighter. My pally had a little issue but would use intim to get things back. I never used intolerant blow or had it even because it was not necessary. Not seeing much difference on lammania. On my dwarf fighter I am going with kensai 5 and I get the handy new two handed fighting feat so if anything I will gain in hate. My pally I decided to change for now, but really as a drow or elf I could look to get dex to damage which would boost things.
    As a first life dps build most of my toons can do 4800-5600 dps during furyshot 4 arrows 1200-1600 a shot, this is mediocre gear as well. Please tell me how you keep up with that. Also if you use intim you don't need the 75 stated earlier you need 107 or something like that iirc.

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    Default and...

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    As a first life dps build most of my toons can do 4800-5600 dps during furyshot 4 arrows 1200-1600 a shot, this is mediocre gear as well. Please tell me how you keep up with that. Also if you use intim you don't need the 75 stated earlier you need 107 or something like that iirc.
    That's where knowledge of the arrow-slinger becomes handy... e.g. arrow-sllinger to self "I should wait for the tank to establish agro prior to shooting off my load" ...OR, the tank communicates "Hey, give me a minute to establish agro" and the party members courteously adhere.

    Also, maybe you know something I don't, but the only raid boss needing a 107 to tank is LoB in EE. A tank with less will know or soon find out they should not tank it. Almost all other Raid boses that can be intim'd are way below that number. Plus, a Tank with a 102 intim would have to roll below a 5 to fail against ee LoB.......15 seconds later, he attempts again....OR, the tank is allowed the first 5 hits to establish each time threat is reset....OR (you get my point)

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    As a first life dps build most of my toons can do 4800-5600 dps during furyshot 4 arrows 1200-1600 a shot, this is mediocre gear as well. Please tell me how you keep up with that. Also if you use intim you don't need the 75 stated earlier you need 107 or something like that iirc.
    What is iirc? In Fall of Truth on ee for lock down its only mid to high 80s. Regarding furyshot you just coordinate and speak with the archer. I have tanked Fall of Truth on epic elite about 15 or so times. Sometimes I have all the archers fury shot relatively close to me and then I intimi off them when they are about done or I have them hold onto their fury for a more opportune time. Play as a team it is not too hard with the furyshot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamode_Corebasher View Post
    That's where knowledge of the arrow-slinger becomes handy... e.g. arrow-sllinger to self "I should wait for the tank to establish agro prior to shooting off my load" ...OR, the tank communicates "Hey, give me a minute to establish agro" and the party members courteously adhere.

    Also, maybe you know something I don't, but the only raid boss needing a 107 to tank is LoB in EE. A tank with less will know or soon find out they should not tank it. Almost all other Raid boses that can be intim'd are way below that number. Plus, a Tank with a 102 intim would have to roll below a 5 to fail against ee LoB.......15 seconds later, he attempts again....OR, the tank is allowed the first 5 hits to establish each time threat is reset....OR (you get my point)
    Well this is just my take on it but if you're going to be a tank you better plan out to get any ee raid boss, after all if you can't tank one of the two or three fights that needs a tank what's the point of your toon? As far as giving the tank a second, yeah that doesn't work, you still pull aggro and have to tank it anyways till the tank intims or otherwise gets aggro back, making the tank kind of worthless since you're tanking, self healing, and doing more damage than them. I actually really like tanking, I've played a tank in every other mmo I've played, but in ddo they're substandard toons in all but 2 or 3 fights.
    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    What is iirc? In Fall of Truth on ee for lock down its only mid to high 80s. Regarding furyshot you just coordinate and speak with the archer. I have tanked Fall of Truth on epic elite about 15 or so times. Sometimes I have all the archers fury shot relatively close to me and then I intimi off them when they are about done or I have them hold onto their fury for a more opportune time. Play as a team it is not too hard with the furyshot.
    iirc = if I recall correctly

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    Question Breakdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alcedes View Post
    1) Incite needs to be reduced (around 1500% is possible) to a more reasonable number. If a S&B tank generates threat 1:15 (1500%) compared to other players, Turbine cannot really increase their DPS much. Otherwise tanking would become a trivial task with no challenge whatsoever. By reducing the amount of Incite bonuses down to around 300-500%, you now have room to allow an increase in DPS for tanks without making their threat generation way overpowered.
    Could we see the breakdown of that 1500% threat number? I agree with your premise, thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    Could we see the breakdown of that 1500% threat number? I agree with your premise, thanks!
    well off of the top of my head i can only think of these:

    1000 intolerance
    100 intimidate
    100 divine righteousness
    100 stand against the tide
    75 DoS/SD
    30 incite
    25 incite
    20 incite
    15 incite
    10 incite


    and in regards to madmatt, i have all of these sources. and the dreadnaught rogues in my guild can rip aggro off of me within seconds with me swinging 1 handers with 25+ base damage on live.
    Last edited by Alcedes; 08-10-2013 at 03:04 PM.

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    first of all what should change is how hate is generated, instead per damage to per hit (each hit would count the same amount of hate + bonuses from items or skills), then haveing 101% of hate gen and decent chance to hit would be enough to stay on top of enemy hate list. its the same kind of BS as with dps, more and more and more bonuses to the point it gets out of hand, and even more hard to track.
    Last edited by bloodnose13; 08-10-2013 at 03:47 PM.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcedes View Post
    well off of the top of my head i can only think of these:

    1000 intolerance
    100 intimidate
    100 divine righteousness
    100 stand against the tide
    75 DoS/SD
    30 incite
    25 incite
    20 incite
    15 incite
    10 incite


    and in regards to madmatt, i have all of these sources. and the dreadnaught rogues in my guild can rip aggro off of me within seconds with me swinging 1 handers with 25+ base damage on live.
    I should say I usually am in Stand Against the Tide on my pally and have at least 15, 20 and 30 incite. On EE FOT the players do not swing their hardest so to speak, but still swing hard. Someone would not be in Blitz in a tanking situation because usually tanking situations in DDO center around bosses and there are not the mobs to kill to build up a blitz. Furyshot as has been pointed out can be worked around.

    Intimidate is a potent skill in DDO which remedies a lot of issues i.e. if aggro switches then you can pull it back quick. I used my pally tank a lot in the blue dragon EE room and if aggro switches there I just pull it back and have it strongly with intimidate after pulling it back.

    I just do not feel this is as big an issue as people put forth. You do not need lockdown hate to tank in DDO - that is what intimidate is for and this intolerant hate as well. So what if aggro switches you just get it back. Now if aggro switched back and forth all the time that would be a problem, but that is not what I see in game even on my dex based pally without any two handed fighting feats i.e. the pally is a somewhat lower dps tank. Now my fighter has even less issues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I should say I usually am in Stand Against the Tide on my pally and have at least 15, 20 and 30 incite. On EE FOT the players do not swing their hardest so to speak, but still swing hard. Someone would not be in Blitz in a tanking situation because usually tanking situations in DDO center around bosses and there are not the mobs to kill to build up a blitz. Furyshot as has been pointed out can be worked around.

    Intimidate is a potent skill in DDO which remedies a lot of issues i.e. if aggro switches then you can pull it back quick. I used my pally tank a lot in the blue dragon EE room and if aggro switches there I just pull it back and have it strongly with intimidate after pulling it back.

    I just do not feel this is as big an issue as people put forth. You do not need lockdown hate to tank in DDO - that is what intimidate is for and this intolerant hate as well. So what if aggro switches you just get it back. Now if aggro switched back and forth all the time that would be a problem, but that is not what I see in game even on my dex based pally without any two handed fighting feats i.e. the pally is a somewhat lower dps tank. Now my fighter has even less issues.
    Intimidate is a piece of **** half the time. I see the following scenario unfold regularly:
    Have aggro. Lose aggro. Hit intim. Get aggro. Lose aggro before the intim icon is even faded from above the mobs head.
    Last edited by Alcedes; 08-12-2013 at 08:23 AM.

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    Aggro holding is not a problem.

    The problem is the defensive benefits of S&B are garbage post ENH-pass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Aggro holding is not a problem.

    The problem is the defensive benefits of S&B are garbage post ENH-pass.
    i agree that post enh-pass its trash...but i also see holding aggro becoming nearly impossible

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