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  1. #1
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Default New Sorc Prestige slated for U21 - Make it Dragon Disciple please

    Hey all with all the discussion about new PrEs and an announcement of a new Sorc PrE coming soon I figured this was a good time to talk about Dragon Disciple...now since we have a whole tree to fill instead of just 3 tiers splashing in a few abilities prestige like Eldritch Knight or Swiftblade will help us flesh it out a bit (note: the devs have shown their open to this ie. Spellsinger+Virtuoso & HOTD+KOTC)

    Here's some ideas mulling around in my head...I DO NOT expect all these abilities to be included I'm just listing various ideas to spark discussion feel free to make your own suggestions and I'll add them to the list. (My personal view of DDO Dragon Disciple is at the end of this post)

    - Name it <Color> Dragon Disciple and have it like Savants where there's different versions for each element with slight differences.

    - Natural Armor and PRR Increases to reflect your skin becoming dragon scale hard (probably have it increase for every core ability purchased)

    - Bonuses to Str, Con and Charisma (aspect of the dragon or w/e)

    - Breath Weapon (Element based on color choice) uses per day = Con mod

    - Elemental Resistance (eventual immunity) based on color chosen

    - Some immunities based on chosen color (similar to how palemaster gets undead-like immunities)

    - Some sort of "Dragon Form" like the Palemasters forms...probably is where some of the abilities suggested here are accessed/gained. No need to change healing type since most Dragons are healed by positive energy...although it would be a thematic capstone to be healed by your chosen color/element

    - Sorc Level counts as 1/3, 1/2, a full fighter (tier allotment up to devs) for purpose of feat pre-reqs.

    - Grant extended duration to Haste, rage and tenser's tranformation eventually culimntaing in a tier 5 ability that makes them last until rest and be undispelable (even immune to beholder antimagic cone)

    - Spell Resistance

    - Ways to reduce or eliminate ASF either by ASF value or just by armor type (and grant proficiency)...like Tier 1 could nullify ASF for Light Armor/Light Shields, Tier 3 Medium Armor and Large Shields, Tier 5 Heavy Armor and Tower Shield (along with the relevant proficiencies)

    - Some sort of Dragon roar ability that triggers an intimidate (does trigger intim cooldown) and cause cause fear (shaken on save)

    - Damage Reduction/ X, where X is based on color (ie. Black = Adamantine, White = Crystal)

    - Toggle abilty that allows you to expend Mana per strike to deal extra damage of your colors element (or maybe just a Single Element buff similar to Artificer "Elemental Weapon" except it stacks with any spells of that nature...probably part of the "Dragon Form")

    - Spellpower bonus based on color choice (probably per point spent in tree kind of thing)

    - Unarmed gains x[W] and piercing to reflect growing claws. (amount of increase up to devs...make it nice enough to matter though)

    One thing I'd like to see with DD is to be weapon/armor neutral IOW it could be unarmored, light armor, medium armor, heavy armor, Sword & Board, 2-Hander, TWF, Unarmed that mixs martial and arcane prowess quite well to make a fun and unique Prestige Tree. This way the builds associated with this tree could be vastly different...varying between a Single-class Sorc to Light splashes and to deep multi-classing.


    Now all that said here's my personal preference for Dragon Disciple wrought with bias

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    - Visual effect showing wings..have them grow as you take more core abilities in DD...don't make them too big of course (mechanically have it give featherfall and a bonus to balance and jump because actual flight would break the game) have the wings flap a bit when floating

    - Must use 1-handed weapon or unarmed to allow for a free hand to cast spells properly

    - A roar which trigger intimidate and causes fear (shaken on save)

    - Bonuses to Str, Con and Cha

    - Resistance -> Immunity -> healed by chosen color (vulnerability to opposite element probably)

    - Unarmed gains piercing damage type and increased [W] to reflect growing claws.

    - Breath weapon based on color choice

    - Increased duration for Haste, Rage and Tenser's Transformation eventually culminating in a tier 5 ability causing them to last until rest and be undispelable (namely vs. Beholder anti-magic cones)

    - Natural armor and PRR to reflect your skin become hard scales...probably work well as a "Increase with each core ability" setup

    Something like this




    Last edited by Failedlegend; 08-09-2013 at 01:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
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  2. #2
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Since I promised I'd have answered your DD thread, here I am.

    I will preface by saying that I utterly despise the idea of hybrids Melee-Casters.

    There 2 major issue with the OP:

    1) You basically suggested a load of things. Actually, you suggested EVERYTHING this game has to offer. Defense, Offense, Unarmed melee, Proficiency with weapons, Spellpower, AC, PRR, DR, Dodge, Elemental Resistances, Spell Resistance, AoE stun ability, DPS AOEs etc. I'd like to see what YOU suggest as Prestige. This to me looks like a "give us all and make melee casters viable" thread. Be more precise and make up your mind on what you REALLY want from this prestige. Flesh things out.

    It's like me saying "Savants should us more spells, more spellpower, resistance, cool abilities at T5, different perks, moar dps". It means nothing.

    2) Would you ever take a DD over a pure melees in your Epics? EH and EE?
    Last edited by IWCoppercrest; 09-07-2013 at 11:39 AM. Reason: **** for profanity
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  3. #3
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    In the PnP Eldritch Knight, the player gained increased saves, arcane caster levels and BAB for taking levels in ED. However, the character couldn't gain new spells per day as a trade-off. I can't help but feel that sorcerers, in return for gaining increased durability, need to sacrifice something for it.

  4. #4
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    In the PnP Eldritch Knight, the player gained increased saves, arcane caster levels and BAB for taking levels in ED. However, the character couldn't gain new spells per day as a trade-off. I can't help but feel that sorcerers, in return for gaining increased durability, need to sacrifice something for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    You basically suggested a load of things
    Honestly the "Armored Mage" is my least favorite aspect of Gishes but I knew it was a popular aspect of Gishdom so I left it in my suggestions as for "Penalties" I don't think its required as long as the prestige is balanced against the Savants and w/e the other prestige Sorcs get than the balance comes from where do I want to spend my APs

    I mostly wanted to just see what other people thought but if you really want my personal Dragon Disciple preference I'd say something along these lines


    - Visual effect showing wings..have them grow as you take more core abilities in DD...don't make them too big of course (mechanically have it give featherfall and a bonus to balance and jump because actual flight would break the game) have the wings flap a bit when floating.

    - Must use 1-handed weapon or unarmed to allow for a free hand to cast spells properly

    - A roar which trigger intimidate and causes fear (shaken on save)

    - Bonuses to Str, Con and Cha

    - Resistance -> Immunity -> healed by chosen color (vulnerability to opposite element probably)

    - Unarmed gains piercing damage type and increased [W] to reflect growing claws.

    - Breath weapon based on color choice (con used for uses/day and dc)

    - Increased duration for Haste, Rage and Tenser's Transformation eventually culminating in a tier 5 ability causing them to last until rest and be undispelable (namely vs. Beholder anti-magic cones)

    - Natural armor and PRR to reflect your skin become hard scales...probably work well as a "Increase with each core ability" setup


    They'd looks something like this







    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Since I promised I'd have answered your DD thread, here I am
    Thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    I will preface by saying that I utterly despise the idea of hybrids Melee-Casters...Defense, Offense, Unarmed melee, Proficiency with weapons, Spellpower, AC, PRR, DR, Dodge, Elemental Resistances, Spell Resistance, AoE stun ability, DPS AOEs etc
    That's actually the idea of a Gish...it does everything...not as well in each respective area as a specialist but utilizing all its options allows it to keep up...oh I never mentioned AC...personally I don't think DD should grant any proficiencies but you were whining about requiring multi-classing so I included it for you.

    Actually whats your opinion on Clerics because their pretty much a Divine Gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    It's like me saying "Savants should us more spells, more spellpower, resistance, cool abilities at T5, different perks, moar dps". It means nothing.
    To be fair that basically does describe savants

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    2) Would you ever take a DD over a pure melees in your Epics? EH and EE?
    Well considering my favorite build right now is a Wizard12/Fighter6/Rogue2 S&B Light Armor Cold-Focused Palemaster Tank...the answer would be yes (next life I'm trying a Sorc build maybe Bladeforged to see how that works out...I'm, hoping to go shieldless with this one..I don't like using a shield on my gishes it doesn't feel right)
    Last edited by IWCoppercrest; 09-07-2013 at 11:40 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  5. #5
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Honestly the "Armored Mage" is my least favorite aspect of Gishes but I knew it was a popular aspect of Gishdom so I left it in my suggestions as for "Penalties" I don't think its required as long as the prestige is balanced against the Savants and w/e the other prestige Sorcs get than the balance comes from where do I want to spend my APs

    I mostly wanted to just see what other people thought but if you really want my personal Dragon Disciple preference I'd say something along these lines

    Snip

    To be fair that basically does describe savants
    You didn't understand my point. You are being vague "I want this, that and that other". I'd like you to say EXACTLY what you want, how much of them you want, how bigger the bonuses you want. You want 3000 PRR or 10? 200 AC or 2?

    Well considering my favorite build right now is a Wizard12/Fighter6/Rogue2 S&B Light Armor Cold-Focused Palemaster Tank...the answer would be yes (next life I'm trying a Sorc build maybe Bladeforged to see how that works out...I'm, hoping to go shieldless with this one..I don't like using a shield on my gishes it doesn't feel right)
    I expected such an answer but really I don't know what to say. You would take a hybrid caster-melee in EEs, in EE FoT or even ToR, basically letting him pike. I guess to each their own.
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  6. #6
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    I expected such an answer but really I don't know what to say. You would take a hybrid caster-melee in EEs, in EE FoT or even ToR, basically letting him pike. I guess to each their own.
    Your mistake is in presuming that just because somebody multi-classes or does a non-standard build they are immediately gimped and a piker. As for who I "let" in my groups when I do pug I just take whoever asks unless the quest requires something specific (ie. must have 25str to pull quest critical lever)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  7. #7
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Your mistake is in presuming that just because somebody multi-classes or does a non-standard build they are immediately gimped and a piker. As for who I "let" in my groups when I do pug I just take whoever asks unless the quest requires something specific (ie. must have 25str to pull quest critical lever)
    If it's fine for you, then cool. I honestly wouldn't take a sub-par hybrid into EEs FoT.

    Hell, I don't even bring my Air Savant in there.
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  8. #8

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    I never judge any player as sub-par until I actually group with them, regardless of their build. If the build looks weird I may suspect its sub-par, but I'll still accept them into my group. I've been pleasantly surprised often enough before, and there are plenty of sub-par players with normal looking class/race distributions.

  9. #9
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RadioactivePiranha View Post
    I never judge any player as sub-par until I actually group with them, regardless of their build. If the build looks weird I may suspect its sub-par, but I'll still accept them into my group. I've been pleasantly surprised often enough before, and there are plenty of sub-par players with normal looking class/race distributions.
    Sorry, a 13Wiz/7Clr is bad and can't pull his weight in an EE run, no matter who is the player behind the monitor. And these exist.
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  10. #10
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Sorry, a 13Wiz/7Clr is bad and can't pull his weight in an EE run, no matter who is the player behind the monitor. And these exist.
    I've seen plenty weird clearly gimp builds blows "accepted" super builds out of the water. A Sorc10/Wiz10 can work great with a skilled enough player.

    I'm sorry wizza but it's players like you that drive people to stick to guild and static grouping...have fun waiting an hour to fill your perfect group whilst me and my "abomination" of a pug run through quets with no issues.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
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  11. #11
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    I've seen plenty weird clearly gimp builds blows "accepted" super builds out of the water. A Sorc10/Wiz10 can work great with a skilled enough player.
    I was sure of it.

    Ah if you think a Sorc10/Wiz10 can work "great" you are very well wrong. But sure, go ahead and accept them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    I'm sorry wizza but it's players like you that drive people to stick to guild and static grouping...have fun waiting an hour to fill your perfect group whilst me and my "abomination" of a pug run through quets with no issues.
    I do have fun, not to worry You can be sure!

    I very well enjoy how you know that my pugs take 1h to fill.

    Just FYI: my pugs fill under 20 mins; I always start solo because I don't "need" to fill a pug; I'm well accepted in every single pug that others post. And just because you like to group with gimp builds instead of giving them advices on how to re-roll to something better, my pugs take less time than yours to complete probably.
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  12. #12

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    How much does caster level matter for EE? Don't most EE arcanes just spam low level spells for shirardi procs?

  13. #13
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    How much does caster level matter for EE? Don't most EE arcanes just spam low level spells for shirardi procs?
    They matters half of what they are supposed to matter with all the bugs related to them.
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  14. #14
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    How much does caster level matter for EE? Don't most EE arcanes just spam low level spells for shirardi procs?
    Thats ONE style of casting everyone else does care about their DCs

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    They matters half of what they are supposed to matter with all the bugs related to them.
    Thanks random complains about bugs guy...some specifics would be nice
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  15. #15
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Thanks random complains about bugs guy...some specifics would be nice
    Check around, bugs with MCL/CL has been around since the system was first introduced. There are some good threads around explain how, why and where. You can do your own research.

    In short, they are not applying correctly to many spells, capped and not resulting in MCL/CL increases useless.
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  16. #16
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Check around, bugs with MCL/CL has been around since the system was first introduced. There are some good threads around explain how, why and where. You can do your own research.

    In short, they are not applying correctly to many spells, capped and not resulting in MCL/CL increases useless.
    Thank you for elaborating

    As for LSD just because Shiradi casters are popular doesn't mean their the ONLY casters there are plenty people who want to and do just play your standard DC caster. Mind you going Cold focus can allow you to ignore DCs entirely also IIRC Shiradi caster prefer Wizards. DD would be a Sorc prestige (should actually be a Bard one as well...wouldn't hurt actually since their short one now that Viruoso has been demoted to a single enhancement)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  17. #17
    Community Member mezzorco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    DD would be a Sorc prestige (should actually be a Bard one as well)
    Hey devs! Read this, you can do ONE tree and use it for TWO classes! Make us happy in half time

  18. #18
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mezzorco View Post
    Hey devs! Read this, you can do ONE tree and use it for TWO classes! Make us happy in half time
    They have done it already so we know their not against it (shame it was the worst prestige tree on the planet...oh well Warpriest will be replacing it soon)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
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  19. #19
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    I don't want to see this for a lot of reasons but I will give the top 2

    1. I hate DD's just do and never allowed them in any game I ran but then again I banned all splat books when I ran 3.X



    2. The visual aspects would take to much time since they would have to do a new model for every race allowed to take it and to have it change as they gained power in it means even more work. Some sort of aura or minor visual effect as savants use to get might be fine but still to much work for one small bit of one class. I also think your idea is OP
    Last edited by Uska; 09-07-2013 at 11:13 AM.

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  20. #20
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    I don't want to see this for a lot of reasons but I will give the top 2

    1. I hate DD's just do and never allowed them in any game I ran but then again I banned all splat books when I ran 3.X
    So your already incredibly biased and apparently a really annoying/controlling DM as well

    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    2. The visual aspects would take to much time since they would have to do a new model for every race allowed to take it and to have it change as they gained power in it means even more work. Some sort of aura or minor visual effect as savants use to get might be fine but still to much work for one small bit of one class. I also think your idea is OP
    It would be like every other "transformation" in DDO it wouldn't need to be a new model it would just be an aura/minor visual effect/overlay of some sort similar to Savants or Palemasters so I disagree it would be "too much work" as otherwise it would have been too much work for those prestige classes.

    As for it being OP...some actual input/reasoning would be nice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

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