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  1. #61
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Nonsense. Absolute horse-hockey. Did you hurt yourself pulling that out of a random orifice?

    I throw up an LFM for a quest I've started and 9 times out of 10 I'm done before anyone hits it.
    Thanks, while trying to disagree, you actually reinforced my point quite nicely.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #62
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This is something I predicted a few years ago, was denied furiously this would ever happen, and now I grin knowingly when it has started happening.
    Your points would be SO much better received if you weren't patting yourself on the back so often.
    <-Curelite Bottling Company->

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  3. #63
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danotmano1998 View Post
    Your points would be SO much better received if you weren't patting yourself on the back so often.
    The reason why Im reminding people, many of them the SAME people, is because those points were NOT well received, and furiously denied at the time, but here we are and exactly what I stated, is happening. You have the cause and effect backward. The fact that those points were not well received is the very reason any mention of past discussions of the same topic occurs.

    As far as "so often" - shenanigans - where are these other occurrences?
    Last edited by Chai; 08-08-2013 at 04:25 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    Are you sure you were responding to the right post?

    Or do you think it's wrong to expect people to slow down even in a group that was specifically create to be a causal/no zerg group and clearly labeled as such on the LFM panel? I that case, yeah, I completely disagree. People should abide by the intended nature of the group, or defer to the leader in cases of ambiguity.

    I certainly don't think people should expect other people's groups to slow down for them. I don't know how you'd get that impression.
    lol, in my limited time posting here,even i kno to ignore "teh troll" heh

  5. #65
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The reason why Im reminding people, many of them the SAME people, is because those points were NOT well received, and furiously denied at the time, but here we are and exactly what I stated, is happening. You have the cause and effect backward. The fact that those points were not well received is the very reason any mention of past discussions of the same topic occurs.

    As far as "so often" - shenanigans - where are these other occurrences?
    Honestly, I don't have the time to go back through the forums and re-locate all of your posts, and I won't argue the point with you, chicken or egg. I can remember many posts from you with the "I told you so!" on various topics, most specifically the "slippery slope" arguments that often occur here about the grind mitigation, which I seem to be unable to find in a reasonable search. (Yay new forums!)

    But that's not my point. My point is that you seem to be a very intelligent person who is a good debater.
    Throwing the "I told you so" attitude in makes you seem condescending and smug, which may or may not be the image you are going for. People are more likely to listen if the delivery is done with less .. "nana nana boo boo", if you get my meaning.
    <-Curelite Bottling Company->

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  6. #66
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danotmano1998 View Post
    Honestly, I don't have the time to go back through the forums and re-locate all of your posts, and I won't argue the point with you, chicken or egg. I can remember many posts from you with the "I told you so!" on various topics, most specifically the "slippery slope" arguments that often occur here about the grind mitigation, which I seem to be unable to find in a reasonable search. (Yay new forums!)

    But that's not my point. My point is that you seem to be a very intelligent person who is a good debater.
    Throwing the "I told you so" attitude in makes you seem condescending and smug, which may or may not be the image you are going for. People are more likely to listen if the delivery is done with less .. "nana nana boo boo", if you get my meaning.
    The only reason it sounds condescending is due to the degree people pushed back on some of those statements, often times turning it into personal beef rather than addressing the point made. Note that most of those people are gone. Some will likely be back when the expansion occurs, depending on how attached they are to current endeavors.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #67
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    No other game that I played has something like fortification, for some people this is the first time they play something based on d&d.
    Before I started playing ddo I never heard about d&d.
    http://www.wowwiki.com/Defense

    http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Critical_Defence

    http://telarapedia.gamepedia.com/Toughness


    Just a few and while these are largely only used by tanks in these games they are a needed portion of defense, since ddo doesn't use the trinity it then becomes nessecary for everyone to have it.

  8. #68
    Community Member Anarkius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    http://www.wowwiki.com/Defense

    http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Critical_Defence

    http://telarapedia.gamepedia.com/Toughness


    Just a few and while these are largely only used by tanks in these games they are a needed portion of defense, since ddo doesn't use the trinity it then becomes nessecary for everyone to have it.
    Not trying to belittle the point you are making due to it being valid, but I don't count LOTRO since it is a DDO clone designed by Turbine to cash in on the LOTR franchise and fans and comparisons are way to abundant
    I believe in mind over matter. If I don't mind, it doesn't matter.

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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    Why do you think new players are treated badly?
    Because most of them have no manners, they just join the quest, dont even write hi, they write share plz, then they get in, die and log off.
    This. Even if it doesn't apply to all new players (because of course it doesn't), all it takes is a string of lousy PUG runs to ask yourself, "why eff with this when I can go alone or with guildies and friends faster and without the hassle?".

    Is it my responsiblity to teach the newbies? I don't care, that's not what I log on to do. I'll teach the stubborn people who figured out how to get to 10 and conduct themselves with a modicrum of social ease. I'll enjoy their company. I will not take 4 Johnny Shrplzes through Tear to watch their dots spread out like pollen all over the map while I listen for the dings. No "heal me" there, just a wordless, shame-filled ragequit waiting to happen.

  10. #70
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    To be honest, the Johnny Shareplzes may have gotten the impression that this is the usual and preferred behavior within the DDO community. Most, if not all, group experiences would have been with favor farmers up to that point and it is absolutely common and usual for no one to talk in those groups and be generally ignorant of each others presence both in and outside of quests.
    In fact I would say the phrase "share plz" pretty much proves they made their previous experiences in those groups since that and a (Quest) "XY nxt " may have been their only communication with other players up to that point.

  11. #71
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    Everybody who is breaking the population into two groups, "noobs" and "vets", is wrong. There is a third group. It exists. I know.

    I am a third grouper. My main is finishing his second life. I have two characters, both level 19 and nearing TR time. This is how it looks from my perspective.

    I've been trying to get back into the game for a couple of weeks. I know how to play the game. I have taken the time to learn. I know the vast majority of things that I need, I know how to figure out where to get them. I don't have great gear but I craft and cover every base that I can so far. The only thing that I am missing from the game is a sense of camaraderie.

    I log in two to four times a week, usually in the 10pm to 3am range EST, and I watch the LFMs. I search all players and go through the list. I don't see the same people in LFMs frequently at all, when there are LFMs in my level range. I see a ton of different guilds but I never see any of those guilds in PUGs often enough to have any idea if it's a group of people I would want to try and join up with. I can only assume that a lot of people are anonymous, otherwise every guild on the server appears to have between one and ten members. I never even run across the same character enough to know if it's somebody I would like to try and play with more often. It's just a string of random travelers that I cross paths with on the road, never to be seen again.

    I completely understand the "vets" desire to keep out players who have no interest in personal responsibility or competent play. It just seems that they could stand to be reminded that the wall keeps out more than just the "noobs." I can't be the only one, right?

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    Why do you think new players are treated badly?
    Because most of them have no manners, they just join the quest, dont even write hi, they write share plz, then they get in, die and log off.
    All my lfms are byoh, one time someone joined didnt even write anything, he died and then logged off, thats one of the reasons I tend not to put up lfms before lvl 10.
    I gave advice to one player that byoh means bring your own healing and that he should not join those lfms if he cant heal himself, he was a wiz, he died in quest, I also wrote to him not to grab aggro if he cant heal, he had like 50 hp at lvl 8, after the quest was finished he didnt write anything, I wrote to him see ya later and kicked him out of the group, he then wrote me in a tell **** off with caps on.
    Oh you are so missing out at those levels! I meet some of the loveliest people in the harbour and have some great conversations. Particularly people who are new to the game and who may have played other MMOs or have played pnp. From lots of different countries and we end up talking about all sorts of things. Sure you get selfish non-contributers - but as you can pretty much solo the quest why care? I am not so fussed about the 10% though. It's only occasionally that I get a whole group of people who are just not fun for whatever reason and then I just finish up the quest and politely say I need to break and drop group. Or I might just say thanks, drop and then reform inviting just some of the previous group if they want to join me. It's only one quest you have to tolerate the difficult people. And some of the amazing people I've met makes it worthwhile and a lot of fun.

    [Confession: I love pugs of chaos. This occasionally drives my guildies nuts when I raid lead]

    I do hate being level 15 atm and playing at a dumb time. (2am-9am EST). Lfm up for ages and no one joins :/ Thinking about advertising for a TR buddy since mine is pretty much afk from the game atm. But they have to be able to tolerate pugs

    OP, I hope you find what you're looking for to match your playstyle.
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    ~ Mellinator ~ Mellant ~ Melizzic ~ Melton ~ Melvanwy ~

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Really Really?
    /kobold impression

    When I was new, if I was running a new quest I asked freaking questions, not asking and speaking up means you really don't care and are essentially wanting others to just do things for you rather than taking a miniscule amount of personal responsibility for learning things. It is rude of them not to speak up and I have always and will always avoid such people in any game that I play.
    Seriously, if you think of this empathetically...I find new players do ask a lot of questions, and even seem apologetically afterwards. When I ask why or say no worries, the response is that most people they have partied with either ignore those questions or they didn't have time to ask because they were trying to run the whole time. New players are not evil, flower sniffers are not evil, zergers are not evil, but all may have a different goal in a quest. But the point some of us are trying to make is that you don't have to zerg if you don't want and its just as easy to do the quest fast and help a new player along the way.

  14. #74
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    No other game that I played has something like fortification, for some people this is the first time they play something based on d&d.
    Before I started playing ddo I never heard about d&d.
    This is because in most MMOs their armor deflects a significant portion of ALL damage taken. When I played WOW it was common to have tanks that only took 40% damage from all sources. The concept of PRR that DDO uses was lifted right from other MMOs.

    When people first start playing ANY MMO, no one knows how their damage mitigation system works. It ALL has to be learned. Sure D&D terms and definitions are foreign to people that never played it, but the same goes for any other MMO game.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #75
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This is because in most MMOs their armor deflects a significant portion of ALL damage taken. When I played WOW it was common to have tanks that only took 40% damage from all sources. The concept of PRR that DDO uses was lifted right from other MMOs.

    When people first start playing ANY MMO, no one knows how their damage mitigation system works. It ALL has to be learned. Sure D&D terms and definitions are foreign to people that never played it, but the same goes for any other MMO game.
    D&D = good

    other games = dumb

    The whole defensive pass was a big bucket of fail and needs to be reexamined.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrTastyHead View Post
    Everybody who is breaking the population into two groups
    Any such breakdown into groups, be it 2 or 3 or 271, is just in imperfect approximation, which may or may not be a useful tool for analyzing certain aspects of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrTastyHead View Post
    Everybody who is breaking the population into two groups, "noobs" and "vets", is wrong. There is a third group. It exists. I know.

    I am a third grouper.
    If I were a true cynical elite vet, I would say that the people who think there is a third group only think that because they noobs.
    Last edited by SirValentine; 08-09-2013 at 09:45 AM.

  17. #77
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    D&D = good

    other games = dumb

    The whole defensive pass was a big bucket of fail and needs to be reexamined.
    But any game system = something new that has to be learned. The issue is people who are big fans of D&D sometimes dont want to admit where the shortcomings of the system are.

    The only place the defensive pass failed was EE, due to the diminishing returns at the top end there is no way to get higher AC that even matters, and thats only for the to-hit rolls. For mitigation it still works.

    Yeah it certainly did make DDO feel like other MMOs, but it beats out the "all or nothing" system that was in place before it. The kind of AC needed to not get hit as much on a 1 for 1 basis in EE was not attainable the old way anyhow. So similar issues still existed in the most difficult content.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Now if it had 90% procedural pathing, and mobs with procedural affixes, random lethal traps, and random secrets that have to be actively searched for that hide unknown but cool loot ....
    Your probably a ways off from that being a realistic game map design framework. It will get here, but maybe not for today's games, and in some respects it threatens the employment of map/level designers. More likely, you'll see the move to more Foundry style mapping choices first. Then maybe a move to random mapping generators fed a list of objective parameters. Then lastly, a blending of those two models into what you're suggesting above.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    If I were a true cynical elite vet, I would say that the people who think there is a third group only think that because they noobs.
    That is exactly what I'm trying to point out. Everybody who is not already an elite vet is not a noob and the failure to keep that in mind is horrible for the community. There have to be a lot of people who get beyond the noob stage only to continue to be locked out by the vets. It can feel like the only way to become part of the "more advanced" crowd is to have already been a part of that crowd years ago.

  20. #80
    Community Member Nahiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrTastyHead View Post

    I am a third grouper. My main is finishing his second life. I have two characters, both level 19 and nearing TR time. This is how it looks from my perspective.

    I've been trying to get back into the game for a couple of weeks. I know how to play the game. I have taken the time to learn. I know the vast majority of things that I need, I know how to figure out where to get them. I don't have great gear but I craft and cover every base that I can so far. The only thing that I am missing from the game is a sense of camaraderie.

    I log in two to four times a week, usually in the 10pm to 3am range EST, and I watch the LFMs. I search all players and go through the list. I don't see the same people in LFMs frequently at all, when there are LFMs in my level range. I see a ton of different guilds but I never see any of those guilds in PUGs often enough to have any idea if it's a group of people I would want to try and join up with. I can only assume that a lot of people are anonymous, otherwise every guild on the server appears to have between one and ten members. I never even run across the same character enough to know if it's somebody I would like to try and play with more often. It's just a string of random travelers that I cross paths with on the road, never to be seen again.

    I completely understand the "vets" desire to keep out players who have no interest in personal responsibility or competent play. It just seems that they could stand to be reminded that the wall keeps out more than just the "noobs." I can't be the only one, right?
    I´m with you. I know the game, I´ve been playing it since update 9, but I´m just at lev19 on my second life (have 1 other toon at 25 and another at 20 waiting for the enhancement pass to TR). I don´t have the time or the will to grind for uber gear (my best is a couple of items from cannith challenges and a HP GS) but I´m a decent player (i think).

    For me, it´s been almost impossible to meet new people through the pug scene. And nowadays it gets more and more difficult (It doesn´t help that all comunication I see on most pugs is a "hey" from the leader. And that is if you are lucky. Raids are different, but I only run Shroud from time to time and nothing else.)

    My friend list is around 40 people, but that is hardly enough to see more than 1 or 2 active when I log. My guild is really small and it´s been reduced to 3 people on the last 3/4 months. I support all ships buffs and I don´t want to give up on it...

    Anyway, if you are in Ghallanda, pls send me a tell. I´ll run any quest you like just for the fun of it. In fact, I´m trying to implement a new pug description: "Will pug for fun".

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