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  1. #1
    Hero LordDunmore's Avatar
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    Default Question to Producer Rowan - Priority of "Bug Fixing" (i.e. Known Issue List)

    I see that you are posting here in the forum, so I have a question for you.

    As the title says, I am curious as to Turbine's current "Official Position" (if there is one), on addressing *existing* bugs in the game, and in particular addressing the 'known issues list'. There are numerous known issues in that list that have been around for years.

    I fully and completely support the release of new content, it is needed for the game to continue and grow, so please do not take this post as a slam in that direction.

    The last thing I have read from a senior member of Turbine was from Fernando about a year ago (Producer letter August 2012), where he said in part "... we are also aware of feedback from some players expressing concern over the size of our known issues list. We agree, and so the team is now adjusting plans to shift our focus to bring more quality-of-life patches to help address important bugs in our upcoming releases. ..." Well, I am sorry to say, from what I can determine, that over the past year, while there have been some bug fixes released, the known issues list has unfortunately grown since that letter was posted.

    I realize that asking for any major effort for the pending update is unrealistic, as it is nearly ready for release. However, I, at least, would appreciate even a small amount of developer time be directed to cut down the known issue list.

    Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
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    I would also like to see some of the more important bugs fixed. However, if they're going to put time into fixing bugs I think it would be worth their while to put some effort into making sure that the bugs aren't just going to reappear in a future update. Whenever I see a bug reappear I think it's a shame that someone put the work into fixing the bug and now that work is wasted.

  3. #3
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    Default yea especially...

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I would also like to see some of the more important bugs fixed. However, if they're going to put time into fixing bugs I think it would be worth their while to put some effort into making sure that the bugs aren't just going to reappear in a future update. Whenever I see a bug reappear I think it's a shame that someone put the work into fixing the bug and now that work is wasted.
    ...since this shows a real poor lack of version control. You need to update your version control software. I used to use and administer Changeman on mainframes and I know how difficult it can be to migrate, but I also know how much your product can improve with use of a proper quality versioning product.

  4. #4
    Franchise Director ProducerRowan's Avatar
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    When we build things we break things. So there is a balance.

    Our current status with Shadowfell Conspiracy (and I think Maj Mal would back this up) is that we're at one of the lowest bug and "user pain" (our health rating) levels that DDO has seen in a very long time.

    That said, it does not help if your specific bug is not fixed. For the next two weeks (leading up to launch), the team is focused on bug fix and "quality of life" issues that we can include for Patch 1.

    Short answer is - we're fixing bugs, and QA is currently swamped under a mountain of items to regress and validate.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProducerRowan View Post
    When we build things we break things. So there is a balance.

    Our current status with Shadowfell Conspiracy (and I think Maj Mal would back this up) is that we're at one of the lowest bug and "user pain" (our health rating) levels that DDO has seen in a very long time.

    That said, it does not help if your specific bug is not fixed. For the next two weeks (leading up to launch), the team is focused on bug fix and "quality of life" issues that we can include for Patch 1.

    Short answer is - we're fixing bugs, and QA is currently swamped under a mountain of items to regress and validate.
    Wow, not only do you get it, you TOTALLY get it. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
    Shiradi Wiz Plan for 1st Lifers: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...r-First-Lifers
    U25 Patch 1 Dex Halfling Assassin Build: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...x-Assassin-1-0
    Warlock DC Caster: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ld-Blast-Build

    Several characters on Sarlona all starting with "Rand" in the Guild "Guardians of House Cannith". My main four characters are Randowl (18 rogue 2 artificer mechanic - hope to go back to DC casting some day), Randslar (Bard 14 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2 Swashbuckler), Randek (Druid CC Caster 17/Fvs 3) and Randomall (Rogue 20 assassin).

  6. #6
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProducerRowan View Post
    When we build things we break things. So there is a balance.

    Our current status with Shadowfell Conspiracy (and I think Maj Mal would back this up) is that we're at one of the lowest bug and "user pain" (our health rating) levels that DDO has seen in a very long time.

    That said, it does not help if your specific bug is not fixed. For the next two weeks (leading up to launch), the team is focused on bug fix and "quality of life" issues that we can include for Patch 1.

    Short answer is - we're fixing bugs, and QA is currently swamped under a mountain of items to regress and validate.
    Rowan;

    I have to say I LOVE the level and frequency of your communication!

    Please, keep it up! You may not have much to talk about in the future, like between updates for example, but please continue to post and communicate.

    We have not seen such communication from a Turbine higher-up in a very long time and it is very refreshing to read what you post/say. Don't stop!

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProducerRowan View Post
    When we build things we break things. So there is a balance.

    Our current status with Shadowfell Conspiracy (and I think Maj Mal would back this up) is that we're at one of the lowest bug and "user pain" (our health rating) levels that DDO has seen in a very long time.

    That said, it does not help if your specific bug is not fixed. For the next two weeks (leading up to launch), the team is focused on bug fix and "quality of life" issues that we can include for Patch 1.

    Short answer is - we're fixing bugs, and QA is currently swamped under a mountain of items to regress and validate.
    Not be nitpicky, but one bug I reported 13 months ago shortly after the release of U14 is that black loch doesn't drop epic fragments for sure and I suspect it doesn't drop seals either because I've never seen one.

    This has come up on the forums numerous times, has been bug reported and thus far never even made it to the known issues list. I am not sure how to communicate this any other way.

    I am not saying it's the highest priority item, but it should at least be on the known issues list.

    Thank you.
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
    Shiradi Wiz Plan for 1st Lifers: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...r-First-Lifers
    U25 Patch 1 Dex Halfling Assassin Build: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...x-Assassin-1-0
    Warlock DC Caster: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ld-Blast-Build

    Several characters on Sarlona all starting with "Rand" in the Guild "Guardians of House Cannith". My main four characters are Randowl (18 rogue 2 artificer mechanic - hope to go back to DC casting some day), Randslar (Bard 14 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2 Swashbuckler), Randek (Druid CC Caster 17/Fvs 3) and Randomall (Rogue 20 assassin).

  8. #8
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProducerRowan View Post
    When we build things we break things. So there is a balance.

    Our current status with Shadowfell Conspiracy (and I think Maj Mal would back this up) is that we're at one of the lowest bug and "user pain" (our health rating) levels that DDO has seen in a very long time.

    That said, it does not help if your specific bug is not fixed. For the next two weeks (leading up to launch), the team is focused on bug fix and "quality of life" issues that we can include for Patch 1.

    Short answer is - we're fixing bugs, and QA is currently swamped under a mountain of items to regress and validate.
    This is good to know and appreciated (a word far to uncommon on these forums). That being said can you please make sure the Commyrian weapons with "Life Stealing" (1d3 lvls drained on crit) is on that bug list? Me and many others ran these challenges probably over a combined 80+ times each to get one of these, only to discover it only procs on a 20, and not on a crit. A small issue to fix, but considering the time spent acquiring it, a big issue to those it effects.


    P.S. I would also strongly recommend cutting the ingredient costs for Commyrian weapons/armor in half considering the "random" mechanic they posses. The cloaks can stay as is I suppose.
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

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  9. #9
    Community Member Psiandron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProducerRowan View Post
    When we build things we break things. So there is a balance.

    Our current status with Shadowfell Conspiracy (and I think Maj Mal would back this up) is that we're at one of the lowest bug and "user pain" (our health rating) levels that DDO has seen in a very long time.

    That said, it does not help if your specific bug is not fixed. For the next two weeks (leading up to launch), the team is focused on bug fix and "quality of life" issues that we can include for Patch 1.

    Short answer is - we're fixing bugs, and QA is currently swamped under a mountain of items to regress and validate.

    If the above is accurate, this is a solid approach that will yield enormous gains in the long run.

    During the time I have been playing, there have been a lot of bugs fixed and many, many more attempts to fix bugs, but the list of known issues just keeps getting longer and longer. The reason being that new content and updates keep adding to the list. The devs have never really been able to keep up, let alone go back and fix older issues.

    Ofc, adding new content and making adjustments to a living game are vital in prolonging it's lifespan, but nailing down the quality of the gamecoding of the additions to the game would allow the devs to eventually stem the tide of known issues and eventually reduce their number and level of interference in gameplay.

    Best of luck in your endeavors.

    Props on seeing you out here in the forums Rowan. Your remarks appear to be forthright and your stated unwillingness to make definitive statement when the decision-making process is still underway, rather than, well to be frank, lying to us, is laudable.
    Quote Originally Posted by MalkavianX View Post
    and then dropped it like a burning kitten

  10. #10
    Community Member wildcard1978's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    This is good to know and appreciated (a word far to uncommon on these forums). That being said can you please make sure the Commyrian weapons with "Life Stealing" (1d3 lvls drained on crit) is on that bug list? Me and many others ran these challenges probably over a combined 80+ times each to get one of these, only to discover it only procs on a 20, and not on a crit. A small issue to fix, but considering the time spent acquiring it, a big issue to those it effects.


    P.S. I would also strongly recommend cutting the ingredient costs for Commyrian weapons/armor in half considering the "random" mechanic they posses. The cloaks can stay as is I suppose.
    yeah man its not a bug, you won't find it on the know issue list cause its a chance to do 1d3 neg lvl on a crit and for the think that ya only notice it on a 20 the a few items out there that have that lvl drain but it called soul eating and only works on a 20 to begin with

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProducerRowan View Post
    Short answer is - we're fixing bugs, and QA is currently swamped under a mountain of items to regress and validate.
    +1 for the communication. It's always been one of the biggest complaints among the userbase, so it's nice to even hear "hey! We're alive! We're listening!"

    Knowing nothing about how your QA works, but having built and maintained RT/Bugzilla/Trac/etc. for way bigger projects... any thoughts about having a publically-readable issues list? I know you have at least a couple of "systems" going there, since there are discrepancies between at least https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...l-Known-Issues and the in-game bug tracking. In every system I've ever used, you can set different viewing permissions, so for example in the public list you'd have:
    - Black Loch doesn't drop fragments
    - Impact handwraps are broken
    - Druid effects mess up elemental handwraps

    whereas the internal-flagged bug list would be like:
    - triple-clicking the XP pot in the store while holding quadruple-bucky-cokebottle gives you 400 free turbine points
    - Fast recall
    - something about ED at low levels
    and so on.

    Just a thought. Might cut down on the dupe reports you surely get, and players can know exactly how long issues have... hmm. Never mind. Bad idea.

  12. #12
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProducerRowan View Post
    When we build things we break things. So there is a balance.

    Our current status with Shadowfell Conspiracy (and I think Maj Mal would back this up) is that we're at one of the lowest bug and "user pain" (our health rating) levels that DDO has seen in a very long time.

    That said, it does not help if your specific bug is not fixed. For the next two weeks (leading up to launch), the team is focused on bug fix and "quality of life" issues that we can include for Patch 1.

    Short answer is - we're fixing bugs, and QA is currently swamped under a mountain of items to regress and validate.
    Shenanigans! A Turbine official using plain words and direct speech instead of noncommittal vagaries?

    No, seriously though... Thank you Rowan for making (another!) meaningful response to a player question/concern. Don't suppose we can get even a tentative or approximate patch schedule?
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelverRootnose1 View Post
    ...since this shows a real poor lack of version control. You need to update your version control software. I used to use and administer Changeman on mainframes and I know how difficult it can be to migrate, but I also know how much your product can improve with use of a proper quality versioning product.
    Unfortunately it is not version control. Everything is so intertwined together, so many things looking at some seemingly random piece of code...doors and mushrooms. This is just the way it is. If we see a bug, we report it. If you see a bug, you report it. Some developer goes '?!? that shouldn't happen' or 'No one has touched that content in 2 years' but there it is. We just have to deal with these tangled strains of the past 7 years and live with it. We try to fix them as fast as we can. I know some things have been around since the dawn of Ebberon, some of those may never get fixed. We have ladder issues, other games have weird water physics, or bad collision models.

    When we build things we break things. So there is a balance.

    Our current status with Shadowfell Conspiracy (and I think Maj Mal would back this up) is that we're at one of the lowest bug and "user pain" (our health rating) levels that DDO has seen in a very long time.

    That said, it does not help if your specific bug is not fixed. For the next two weeks (leading up to launch), the team is focused on bug fix and "quality of life" issues that we can include for Patch 1.

    Short answer is - we're fixing bugs, and QA is currently swamped under a mountain of items to regress and validate.
    I back this up. I'm smiling during a release week...it's strange. The only thing I would change is the issues is not a 'mountain',not compared to what this QA team is used to. More like a foothill.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapco View Post
    +1 for the communication. It's always been one of the biggest complaints among the userbase, so it's nice to even hear "hey! We're alive! We're listening!"

    Knowing nothing about how your QA works, but having built and maintained RT/Bugzilla/Trac/etc. for way bigger projects... any thoughts about having a publically-readable issues list? I know you have at least a couple of "systems" going there, since there are discrepancies between at least https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...l-Known-Issues and the in-game bug tracking. In every system I've ever used, you can set different viewing permissions, so for example in the public list you'd have:
    - Black Loch doesn't drop fragments
    - Impact handwraps are broken
    - Druid effects mess up elemental handwraps

    whereas the internal-flagged bug list would be like:
    - triple-clicking the XP pot in the store while holding quadruple-bucky-cokebottle gives you 400 free turbine points
    - Fast recall
    - something about ED at low levels
    and so on.

    Just a thought. Might cut down on the dupe reports you surely get, and players can know exactly how long issues have... hmm. Never mind. Bad idea.
    No.
    I've said it before, the bugbase will never be public.
    We can continue to work on making better known issues, but the internal bugbase will never be visible outside of the building.

    Way bigger projects? maybe...but MMO's make bug tranking software companies freak out. We needed to do a backup this year and they were not sure if it was even possible with the size of our database. They were stunned the software even ran with the size of our database. We are the testcase for them. Think of it: 3 MMO's a MOBA and other stuff with 7+ years of entries.... Unlike other software, we cant just close a project and delete the database...like our code it just grows and grows and grows....

  15. #15
    Community Member Mindos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    Think of it: 3 MMO's a MOBA and other stuff with 7+ years of entries....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infini...8video_game%29

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapco View Post
    - triple-clicking the XP pot in the store while holding quadruple-bucky-cokebottle gives you 400 free
    HEY!
    Do you have the schematics of whatever interface dongle you have between that and your PC or Mac?

    ...all too difficult to find a properly-done keyboard setup for these "modern" computers...
    No longer completely f2p as of November 2014. Father of 3 more DDO players so far (I do have more children than that).

  17. #17
    Community Member knightgf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    No.
    They were stunned the software even ran with the size of our database.
    Then that means something is wrong with your software. Think about it in another perspective: Let's say you took your car to a mechanic for a routine inspection. As the mechanic checks all the parts on the car, he realizes that your car is running oil that is WAY too heavy for your car, but yet runs fine. Of course, its nice that it runs with no problems, but also highly concerning because it could do some nasty damage to your car's engine.

    No offense, but I think your software needs to be updated so that its power to size ratio is better. And while your at it, get some software that helps calculate what kind of bonuses players can get in-game; If you had some idea of what kind of gear and abilities players had at a variety of levels, you would be able to balance content easier and not make things a nightmare for the playerbase, such as the monster saves in Epic Gianthold, for example.
    Here's a riddle for you: What do you call people who play the game for only a day and apparently know everything?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    They were stunned the software even ran with the size of our database. We are the testcase for them. Think of it: 3 MMO's a MOBA and other stuff with 7+ years of entries.... Unlike other software, we cant just close a project and delete the database...like our code it just grows and grows and grows....
    You say "database" - singular. I'm really hoping that you don't mean that 3 MMO's, a MOBA and "other stuff" all run off one database... O.o

  19. #19
    Community Member HernandoCortez's Avatar
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    Good to see the devs are reading.
    EXTREME PREJUDICE™ - by Turbine.

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  20. #20
    Community Member sdrocky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProducerRowan View Post
    When we build things we break things. So there is a balance.

    Our current status with Shadowfell Conspiracy (and I think Maj Mal would back this up) is that we're at one of the lowest bug and "user pain" (our health rating) levels that DDO has seen in a very long time.

    That said, it does not help if your specific bug is not fixed. For the next two weeks (leading up to launch), the team is focused on bug fix and "quality of life" issues that we can include for Patch 1.

    Short answer is - we're fixing bugs, and QA is currently swamped under a mountain of items to regress and validate.
    Keep up the posting. it is very much appreciated by the ddo community.

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