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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    You say "database" - singular. I'm really hoping that you don't mean that 3 MMO's, a MOBA and "other stuff" all run off one database... O.o
    Well, I guess the user/customer database is indeed a single one - after all, you can have one turbine account with both DDO and LoTR, can't you?

    As for code changes springing up surprising things in areas no one expected, sadly that can happen in far smaller projects as well. I used to work with a Warehouse Management System that ran JIT-sequenced production for Automotive customers - every step we added we were glad the guy who originally worked on the main database was available when (inevitably) something like that came up.
    Happily we were later able to build a largely new database with less issues, changing over it customer by customer. But that is impossible with millions of them.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    No.
    I've said it before, the bugbase will never be public.
    We can continue to work on making better known issues, but the internal bugbase will never be visible outside of the building.

    Way bigger projects? maybe...but MMO's make bug tranking software companies freak out. We needed to do a backup this year and they were not sure if it was even possible with the size of our database. They were stunned the software even ran with the size of our database. We are the testcase for them. Think of it: 3 MMO's a MOBA and other stuff with 7+ years of entries.... Unlike other software, we cant just close a project and delete the database...like our code it just grows and grows and grows....
    Heh. Sounds like one of our major reference dBoRs at work. Older than that, started out with one purpose then people tacked other purposes on it as it made sense to do so, and then the way you process and report data has changed over the years and how we reference it and quality assure it... and now we have a schema that makes outside consultants who interface with this thing impressed.

    It's like... the effort and risk to pull apart the data and stick in back together in a new schema.. compared with the effort of just keeping it going and organised as is... I can't begin to imagine what it would be like for an MMOs bug database of this age and complexity.

    I shall continue to try to be a good little DDOer and try to report as accurately as I can with steps to repro when I can...
    ~Thelanis ~ Khyber ~

  3. #23
    Community Member RapkintheRanger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    No.
    We needed to do a backup this year and they were not sure if it was even possible with the size of our database. .
    Just ask the NSA for help. they have a copy

  4. #24
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    No.
    Way bigger projects? maybe...but MMO's make bug tranking software companies freak out. We needed to do a backup this year and they were not sure if it was even possible with the size of our database. They were stunned the software even ran with the size of our database. We are the testcase for them. Think of it: 3 MMO's a MOBA and other stuff with 7+ years of entries.... Unlike other software, we cant just close a project and delete the database...like our code it just grows and grows and grows....
    You're not using SAP CRM module
    ( we can barely keep up 2 years of bug reports/customer cases in that bloatware, the rest has to be archived )

    Ok, our real Internal system for tracking bugs is... Internal and mainframe based, but it hold more than 7 years ( actually something like 20+ years ) of bugs and code fixes.
    Now it's not game industry, it's telecom....

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    You say "database" - singular. I'm really hoping that you don't mean that 3 MMO's, a MOBA and "other stuff" all run off one database... O.o
    If you look at the 3 MMO closely you will notice the following :
    - All 3 uses the same file format
    - 2 of them ( LoTRO and DDO ) uses the same engine.

    So it's logical to put everything in the same base, because a problem in one game might one day appear in another one, it's faster then to fix it.
    Been there, Done that, Fixed bugs by searching in the base ( the Mainframe based from above ) and finding the solution for other 'applications' and adapting them for the 'application' I was fixing.
    On G-Land : Flavilandile, Blacklock, Yaelle, Millishande, Larilandile, Gildalinde, Tenalafel, and many other...

  5. #25
    Community Member Wanesa's Avatar
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    Waste of the money!

    Thelanis: Shewind the Airbender (Sorc20/Epic5 -> Bard20/Epic8 -> Rog20/Epic8/Epic2 -> Harper_FvS20/Epic4 -> Art19), Azaxe (Rog18/Wiz2 -> Sorc20/Epic6)

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    You say "database" - singular. I'm really hoping that you don't mean that 3 MMO's, a MOBA and "other stuff" all run off one database... O.o
    It sounds like you think he was talking about the *games* running off one database, but I'm fairly certain he was just talking about the database for bug tracking. They most likely use a centralized model for tracking issues in their company. I know that's how it goes where I work. Each individual project we work has their own DB for content and functionality, however they are all source controlled through one central system. This means when work items and issues are logged against any project they are all stored into the same DB.

    We had a similar issue (though nothing of this magnitude) when we had to upgrade and move our source control / issue tracking to a new server, the DB team freaked when they saw our sizing request

    -JJ

  7. #27
    Community Member alancarp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knightgf View Post
    Then that means something is wrong with your software. ...[snip]...No offense, but I think your software needs to be updated so that its power to size ratio is better.
    No... the comment was related to their bug tracking package alone. And updating that would be an extraordinarily difficult proposition (how would you even port the data/notes/dates/history/etc. to a different package?). What Turbine has for bug tracking works for them - and so long as that's the case, there would be no/little point in spending money and copious amounts of time to force another solution... plus no value added for them or us.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by knightgf View Post
    Then that means something is wrong with your software. Think about it in another perspective: Let's say you took your car
    I stopped reading here.

  9. #29
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    Serious question to the Devs, is anything going to be done about the problem with Bladeforged made before U19 not having their religion feats? Because currently, it's rather screwing me over.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrianite View Post
    Serious question to the Devs, is anything going to be done about the problem with Bladeforged made before U19 not having their religion feats? Because currently, it's rather screwing me over.
    Yes, at the very least when Iconic Heroes can reincarnate they can use the +20 Hearts of Wood distributed on Monday to pick up their religious feats.
    Have fun, and don't forget to gather for buffs!
    Submit DDO Bugs through: ddobugs.turbine.com
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Yes, at the very least when Iconic Heroes can reincarnate they can use the +20 Hearts of Wood distributed on Monday to pick up their religious feats.
    That's heartening, to say the least. I was worried I was going to have to reroll and lose all the Bound to Character gear I'd been grinding up.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    No.
    I've said it before, the bugbase will never be public.
    We can continue to work on making better known issues, but the internal bugbase will never be visible outside of the building.

    Way bigger projects? maybe...but MMO's make bug tranking software companies freak out. We needed to do a backup this year and they were not sure if it was even possible with the size of our database. They were stunned the software even ran with the size of our database. We are the testcase for them. Think of it: 3 MMO's a MOBA and other stuff with 7+ years of entries.... Unlike other software, we cant just close a project and delete the database...like our code it just grows and grows and grows....
    If we all switched to playing LOTRO for 3 months, would you be able to migrate the existing DDO database to new servers or would you just claim that no one played anymore and shut the servers down though!

    The problem is, the community does not have enough faith in the devs/producers/executives to do anything but maintain the status quo.

    There is a post that someone mentioned that they transferred customer info from an old database to a new one.
    I know, that at the very least, my guild has people that have not logged in for a year, yet we still keep them in the guild. The problem is, the design does not reward removing the old accounts or even migrating to another game to accomplish that work.

    Perhaps you could provide VIPs that have been paying for DDO for 6 months or more, 2 month free (back-to-back, but not with the same game) for playing LOTRO and the new MOBA "Infinite Crisis".

    Why couldn't you port that old account information to another server then, or better yet during that time. . .store all the information in the Cloud?

    I think you declared 5 million users at Gencon from 2-year old data, if we weren't actively playing, and took a break with another Turbine game, would you be able to migrate the data if this paradigm shift to another game was "powered by fans"?

    The purchases of Otto's boxes alone should pay for the cost of data migration if you could do it in chunks and wouldn't having the information in the Cloud be relatively inexpensive compared to paying third-party vendors to provide these data services?

    We want to help you in this endeavor, but make a way that we actually CAN without bankrupting you and I am pretty sure that we will all do our part. There needs to be lots of candid discussions between executives/devs/producers and the community though.

    The point is, you might not be able to just delete a project but you certainly haven't instilled enough faith to allow us to assist you. Once the community has shrunk enough, we all know that is when the axe is gonna fall, and it is gonna come from higher up, so what do you suggest we do to save the game we love??

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Yes,, at the very least when Iconic Heroes can reincarnate they can use the +20 Hearts of Wood distributed on Monday to pick up their religious feats.
    So I have two bork when they came out because thing were waiting till the release of the enhancement pass now because of the cant tr so wait till when...................... that is such a load of horse $!ht. You change what thing were after you sold them You gave out broken hires and a race of character that if you used early like we were supposed to are not screwed. Come on do something about it
    A Player of a clonk
    funniest thing I have read in a while=>
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    we'd rather spend that development time on things most players like.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Yes, at the very least when Iconic Heroes can reincarnate they can use the +20 Hearts of Wood distributed on Monday to pick up their religious feats.
    What about if the community switched to Iconics and everyone purchased the Hall of Heroes "switching" zone?

    Would you be able to SLOWLY off-load all the Eberron data when we switched to Forgotten Realms, and then off-load Forgotten Realms data when we switched to Eberron??

    I wouldn't so much pay for the convenience of it than if it allowed you to fix a bigger problem!!

    I certainly am willing to do anything, even if it means purchasing a Button of Winning and pressing it repeatedly whenever I enter the Hall of Heroes. . .everyone knows that is how you unlock the hidden Easter Egg. . .

    Even if I have to park every toon on the Airship for a month, and then every toon in the Hall of Heroes for a month, and then every toon in Korthos until it is done. . .then that is what I will do to help you off-load the rest of the data!

    That last stretch in Korthos will be pretty long but at least I will have Thelanis Thursdays and some Vintage Bottles of Old Sully's Grog to keep me company. . .maybe we will just settle down with some old-fashioned roleplaying MUD style. Oh, wait. . .maybe I should just become a Hermit and park all my characters at the top of the Stormhorns and never come down till it is fixed!

    Next!! [Kobold siddles up]

    Just like a bug, Flap them, flap them!
    Wait, there aren't any of those buggy/glitchy kobolds that are in Korthos though!

    Yeah, and the data from crits is different because there are plenty of undead too! Turbine introduced items to allow crits to be possible though. . .I wonder if that front-loads the data-set a little more!

    Well, at least most of the mobs will stay under the water until we approach though. . .Yay!

    Good design Turbine!!

    [PM me if anyone understands this post besides me]
    Last edited by Panserbjorne; 08-22-2013 at 01:23 PM. Reason: misspelled Eberron

  15. #35
    Community Member Drus-the-Axe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    No.
    I've said it before, the bugbase will never be public.
    We can continue to work on making better known issues, but the internal bugbase will never be visible outside of the building.
    Nor should it. For those who don't work in the industry, the reason is simple -- it's meaningless to anyone outside the building, if not downright harmful. Bug databases have all kinds of random data, internal comments, cryptic references false trails and other information that really doesn't make sense unless you're actively working on the project on a regular basis (and even then...). I've been developing software for a mighty long time, and I can't imagine what value I'd get hunting through Turbine's bug database. (And yes, I have looked through various open source projects' bug databases, even filed revised, fixed and filed bugs over the years, and even those databases weren't really useful if I wasn't actively working on the code.)

    OTOH it would provide a wealth of false conjecture and bogus assumptions amongst the outside world. And that's ignoring any of the perhaps-less-than-delicately-phrased-comments-not-written-and-vetted-by-the-PR-department...

    If you're still not seeing the point, look at it this way: You have a personal email account? Been using it for years? How about if you dumped the entire thing on the internet, and all your friends and family and coworkers and future employers read it? What value would that bring, to your or to them?



    Yes Maj, better communication is welcome. I'm happy to see you and others have taken a more active role on the forums in recent months, and I hope this is but the tip of the iceberg. I'm not a child, I don't need to be coddled with soothing false promises. If you can't tell me something, just say you can't and I can accept that. But do share what you can, as you can (facts as well as conjecture and opinions). Communication beats silence (by a wide margin).

    And don't mind the trolls, they seem to be a fact of live. Buggers never die die off entirely matter how badly you starve them :P

  16. #36
    Community Member Drus-the-Axe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panserbjorne View Post
    Why couldn't you port that old account information to another server then, or better yet during that time. . .store all the information in the Cloud?
    If only it were that simple.

    Why can't the mechanic make my 13yr old car soar like a Tesla?
    (well, he can - but the effort is herculean, and the cost alone is likely worse than buying a new Tesla. No matter how much I love my worn in seat and in-dash control placement...)

    P.S. Ummm, all the information is already 'in the Cloud'. Certainly ain't on your hard drive.

  17. #37
    Community Member MichelOue's Avatar
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    Exclamation Study the list of programming skills to promote. name three programmer skills kids

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDunmore View Post
    I see that you are posting here in the forum, so I have a question for you.

    As the title says, I am curious as to Turbine's current "Official Position" (if there is one), on addressing *existing* bugs in the game, and in particular addressing the 'known issues list'. There are numerous known issues in that list that have been around for years.

    I fully and completely support the release of new content, it is needed for the game to continue and grow, so please do not take this post as a slam in that direction.

    The last thing I have read from a senior member of Turbine was from Fernando about a year ago (Producer letter August 2012), where he said in part "... we are also aware of feedback from some players expressing concern over the size of our known issues list. We agree, and so the team is now adjusting plans to shift our focus to bring more quality-of-life patches to help address important bugs in our upcoming releases. ..." Well, I am sorry to say, from what I can determine, that over the past year, while there have been some bug fixes released, the known issues list has unfortunately grown since that letter was posted.

    I realize that asking for any major effort for the pending update is unrealistic, as it is nearly ready for release. However, I, at least, would appreciate even a small amount of developer time be directed to cut down the known issue list.

    Thanks in advance!
    Name three programmer skills you know of, to enlighten youth who cares to fix programming difficulties( develop hardware engineering....) asking is not promoting a more advanced system, but cheers.

  18. #38
    Community Member MichelOue's Avatar
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    Red face I remember monocrome computers.....

    Quote Originally Posted by MeliCat View Post
    Heh. Sounds like one of our major reference dBoRs at work. Older than that, started out with one purpose then people tacked other purposes on it as it made sense to do so, and then the way you process and report data has changed over the years and how we reference it and quality assure it... and now we have a schema that makes outside consultants who interface with this thing impressed.

    It's like... the effort and risk to pull apart the data and stick in back together in a new schema.. compared with the effort of just keeping it going and organised as is... I can't begin to imagine what it would be like for an MMOs bug database of this age and complexity.

    I shall continue to try to be a good little DDOer and try to report as accurately as I can with steps to repro when I can...
    ||\\|| (()), direct X11 user here win8.1, touch pad, wireless programmable keyboard, stereo cable, computer TV 8 speakers 3 systems, have played 3d... I always say they sell cars with square wheels and tell you "it will round out". I wish I could influence my kids to be engineers, I have electronics competencies.
    I have built aerospace cockpit controls, and worked for banks.

    Keep up the good work, invest in our youth to produce a wonderful virtual world. Tell us what you need Hasbro / wizard's of the coast we have need for study grants, and advanced computer engineers, just ask. Love the perspective of being on my phone in the park, with adaptive graphic modifiers to interpret reality, all new things.

    I just want a monkey throw the ****y diapers !

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drus-the-Axe View Post
    Nor should it. For those who don't work in the industry, the reason is simple -- it's meaningless to anyone outside the building, if not downright harmful.
    It was only a semi-serious suggestion... I guess if I could condense it down, I'd say the issue is "the posted list of 'Known Issues' isn't remotely complete." That's all. I don't want to read through bug reports either, but it would be nice to have headlines at least. Like what the list is now - I think the writing's fine, and the layout is fine - I just wish it were more complete.


    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    Do you have the schematics of whatever interface dongle you have between that and your PC or Mac?
    Ahh, we've outed the old-timers. :-D Nah, I still use a Model M, actually. Worked at a place that threw out a cubic-yard box of them, so I nabbed a few. Wish I could get a decent mouse that lasted 6 months, let alone 30 years.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drus-the-Axe View Post
    If only it were that simple.

    Why can't the mechanic make my 13yr old car soar like a Tesla?
    (well, he can - but the effort is herculean, and the cost alone is likely worse than buying a new Tesla. No matter how much I love my worn in seat and in-dash control placement...)

    P.S. Ummm, all the information is already 'in the Cloud'. Certainly ain't on your hard drive.
    No, the information is not in the Cloud. The information is stored on databases which housed in particular servers that are set-up to store the information that way.

    The Cloud stores the information in not one physical location, but several, so the ability to back-up information is not hindered because the rows and columns in a database do not need to be located in one particular file, in one particular server. The information is distributed throughout the cloud

    The Cloud exists because the cost of hard drives have plummeted so that data striping and redundancy enable the information to be written across several hard drives, but also in multiple "work groups".

    Just because something is not stored locally, does not mean that the information exists in the Cloud.

    They are not equivalent.

    The big benefit of Cloud solutions are that they are easily scalable and cheaper.

    I don't know whether they would be able to off-load that much data to the Cloud while it was still in use though, but it would be an interesting thing to make available.

    Being able to use a mobile app to view characters or transfer items could certainly alleviate having to log multiple characters in just to transfer items and prevent issues if/when that database information needs to be ported. . .
    Last edited by Panserbjorne; 08-22-2013 at 09:36 PM. Reason: quotes on work groups as I am not familiar with industry definition

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