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  1. #21
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Lvl 18 pally, straight S&B was up over 120 in stance, without any special gear (if I recall correctly). I was pushing maybe 80(?) in-stance with the same levels and gear on live going pure DoS. I was trying to re-creats what I had currently with the new trees, and I had to tone down the PRR and HP. It gave me extra points for racial abilities. I also still have some three points left to pump into something else.

    I think my HP were low 600s in-stance on live, and were maybe 700-ish on Beta.

    Trying to do this from memory, so my numbers are not exact.
    What level is that character? 120 PRR is not an "insane" amount by any metric, but I'm end-game focussed in my thinking so it that's level 17 or so it wouldn't be that horrible.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    What level is that character? 120 PRR is not an "insane" amount by any metric, but I'm end-game focussed in my thinking so it that's level 17 or so it wouldn't be that horrible.
    The first 3 words you quoted said "lvl 18 pally."

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    The first 3 words you quoted said "lvl 18 pally."
    120 is insane, with ED's that going to end up around 200 if desired.

    Here's the thing, my FvS "Light and Alignment" Guards build is hitting 70-ish and not finding much reason to try and squeeze more out (that's around 38% damage mitigation) at 140-160 is the point where you're getting around half damage, but those numbers require so much of an investment in PrE/Class choice I just don't think they're worth the effort. In fact at 70's I hardly notice when I change ED and drop to 49... Character is almost too easy to play, and most of the challenge for me is trying to use cleaves, lay waste and momentum swing (my twists) in a good pattern so I don't have to watch cooldowns, while also keeping the rest of the party and myself in heals...

    At 70-ish with Bladeforged and FvS DR decent (60's ish) AC and 700-800 HP and 145-ish fort I've played everything in the game including some EE GH and found the character to be as hardy as any character I've ever played.

    It's also more than a match DPS wise for any S&B pali I've played (I have had three, not counting my TWF Smite build Pali's), without considering that I've got DOT's and BB's a shoulder laser, the heal spell and mass cures for the party that no Pali can bring to the table. I guess my point is, a 17FvS 3 Pali (or 2 Pali 1 fighter which he is right now) seems to be "the better Pali" I've talked about in past Pali threads.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  4. #24
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    It's also more than a match DPS wise for any S&B pali I've played . . .
    Way to dream big!

  5. #25
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I'm pretty excited for the changes my HotD pally will get on in the xpack. He loses a fair amount of self-healing to gain some DPS, but he had an abundance of self-healing so it's not too bad.

    Mind you, if I kept him at 18/2 pally/rogue he would have lost a TON of self-healing, meaning I had to splash in a third class just to deal with that. But he really doesn't lose too much once that third class is splashed in. And that third class happens to greatly improve his burst DPS, so it's all good, IMO.

    Pure pally is hosed, though. I can't imagine trying to roll up a pure kotc pally in the new enhancements. Total fail there.
    That last line was what had me grinding my teeth before too and hoped this had improved. My main has been a pure kotc and recently hotd which I was enjoying with my 3 pally PL lol but this new pass seems to be making us even gimpier if that is possible.

    On the other hand end game is pretty much a dead thing so if they don't muck up TRing to bad I may just focus on that, if I can get my wife to play again that is.

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    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    It's also more than a match DPS wise for any S&B pali I've played (I have had three, not counting my TWF Smite build Pali's), without considering that I've got DOT's and BB's a shoulder laser, the heal spell and mass cures for the party that no Pali can bring to the table. I guess my point is, a 17FvS 3 Pali (or 2 Pali 1 fighter which he is right now) seems to be "the better Pali" I've talked about in past Pali threads.
    I believe when Update 20 is released, "the better Pali" will end up being Clerics with the Melee DPS tree coming in that update.

    The only general DPS boost gained in the new Paladin trees is the new Divine Might, which should also appear in the upcoming Clerics melee DPS tree. And if your Paladin had Divine Might IV, the new Divine Might is actually a lose of DPS. And there's still some question if Insight items (aka Exceptional Bonus) will stack with Divine Might.

    All other Paladin DPS in the tree is tied to Evil mobs and the players choice of Evil Outside and Undead, except for the Censure Demons/Devils which can stun those mobs for a few seconds. Besides those factors, Paladins must rely on EDs and Gear and splashing to get better DPS. Clerics on the other hand has a handful of tools, such as BB and DoTs.

    Such, the Paladin will still be more durable than a Cleric. The Paladin will have better saves, HP, AC and PPR; but clerics also have a handful of healing tools and a better SP.

    There's a chance that I'm wrong about all this. But since the Devs didn't really do anything to boost Paladins DPS is small ways like Favored Weapons or truly merging HOTD/KOTC slaying, it won't take much for a pure Cleric with access to a Melee DPS tree, a Healing tree and Caster tree to out-DPS a Paladin, no matter how horrible the non-melee trees are that the Cleric has access to.

  7. #27
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    What level is that character? 120 PRR is not an "insane" amount by any metric, but I'm end-game focussed in my thinking so it that's level 17 or so it wouldn't be that horrible.
    Level 15.



    (Not that I haven't taken into account three other posters correcting you, I just thought I'd join in on the pile-on...)

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    I believe when Update 20 is released, "the better Pali" will end up being Clerics with the Melee DPS tree coming in that update.
    Hey I'm with yah, totally agree, I've made the argument in past threads that some combo of 8 Fighter 12 FvS (or 6/14, or 2/8/10 etc. whatever honestly) is already a better Pali, as the DPS differences are minor, but the self healing is better. Even a 14 fighter 6 FvS (or 12/8) has similar Self healing (Cure critical wounds over the Pali's Cure Serious) but more DPS. and a whole lot more feats to make the self healing better (room for Quicken, Max/Empower and more).

    After the pass a whole host of options: including 3 pali 17 FvS are going to out DPS a basic Pali because they will be able to cherry pick the low hanging fruit of the Pali PrE trees with shield of condemnation debuffs and wings. So for example "Divine Sacrifice" (a light damage smite that is available with 3 Pali levels) with up to +50% stacking debuff on a boss, along with some exulted smites maybe endless smiting ED twist, and add shoulder laser, and a stack of DOT's on the boss it's no longer even a contest.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  9. #29
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    Yup, I'll be using the +20 LR to turn my 3.5 year old pally into some kind of fighter/monk/pally 4 hybrid like a lot of people are. It's not just the enhancement pass, it's partly the low DPS, lack of things that really need tanking, better self healing options (cocoon, scrolls, silver flame pots) than pally spells, and feat starvation. The enhancement pass was just the last straw.

    Kind of sad considering I was hoping the pass was going to give me an incentive to go back to pally 20 over the 18/2 splash I'm using now, but oh well.
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  10. #30
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    My pally (already wasn't great in EH, never tried in EE) didn't get any worse in the first round of the enhancement pass...but I LOVE where my Bear Tank ended up...



    Please note, this was the first alpha phase, i didn't test him out in any of the later runs, so I have no clues as to how he holds up then.
    Shorlong - Pale Master, Cevon - Druid Archer, Gorgnak - Barbarian, Addanc - Bear Tank, Juristash - Shadar Kai Assassin, Treiah - Morninglord Tempest Ranger, Baylfyre - CC Bard, Deimanus - Bladeforged Melee Arti, Daerian - Healing Cleric Morninglord, Krazig - Pally Tank, Veriste - Shadar Kai Death Knight, Xanapheia - TWF FVS, Helainia - Shadar Kai Henshin-Theif

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  11. #31
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    My pally (already wasn't great in EH, never tried in EE) didn't get any worse in the first round of the enhancement pass...but I LOVE where my Bear Tank ended up...



    Please note, this was the first alpha phase, i didn't test him out in any of the later runs, so I have no clues as to how he holds up then.
    LOL . . . your bear is a hell of a lot better than my stalwart made out.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    My pally (already wasn't great in EH, never tried in EE) didn't get any worse in the first round of the enhancement pass...but I LOVE where my Bear Tank ended up...
    Wow, how did you manage to hit so much AC, PRR & doublestrike? Also, which ED are you using - US?

  13. #33
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Second, the stance changes are beyond stupid.
    not as retarded as what they did with Rogue Mechanic
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    My pally (already wasn't great in EH, never tried in EE) didn't get any worse in the first round of the enhancement pass...but I LOVE where my Bear Tank ended up...


    Well....guess I know what I am TRing my 18/2 (Fighter/Pally) Stalwart tank into, goodness!

  15. #35
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NytCrawlr View Post
    Well....guess I know what I am TRing my 18/2 (Fighter/Pally) Stalwart tank into, goodness!
    That fact that a bear-tank is looking much better than an 18/2 shows the game to be broken.

    Not dumping on the bear, but it shouldn't be a better option.

  16. #36
    The Hatchery NytCrawlr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    That fact that a bear-tank is looking much better than an 18/2 shows the game to be broken.

    Not dumping on the bear, but it shouldn't be a better option.
    No disagreement here. But welcome to DDO I guess.

    Certainly adds another option on the table on what to do with her.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    I've made the argument in past threads that some combo of 8 Fighter 12 FvS (or 6/14, or 2/8/10 etc. whatever honestly) is already a better Pali, as the DPS differences are minor, but the self healing is better.
    I took that discussion and ran with it, rolling up a 12/8 fighter/cleric. Leveled him to 25 and TRed back into the same build. Your point is spot on but you have the details backwards: The 12/8 has better DPS but worse self-healing. Also terrible saves (by comparison) but that's offset by getting better tactical feats.

  18. #38
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    That fact that a bear-tank is looking much better than an 18/2 shows the game to be broken.
    Did I misread. I thought that poster said the bear tank was after alpha. Probably should see what it is now that the closed beta is over.

    Note: I did not misread and I know that. The bear post includes this caveat:
    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    Please note, this was the first alpha phase, i didn't test him out in any of the later runs, so I have no clues as to how he holds up then.


    During closed beta I had a monk that was 130+ AC/130+ PRR and a week later changes to the enhancements had dropped it to ~130 AC/~95 PRR. So, anything from alpha shouldn't be referred to as "fact."

    But, mostly what I see in this thread is the constant whine of people concerning paladins. It really isn't the enhancement pass, it is a constant river of crying over the paladin class. The enhancement pass just gives another excuse to get together and bemoan the unfairness of life.

    To be honest, the constant complaining is way past being old. It is time to start looking at what the game actually lets you do with the character instead of filling your heads and forum space with all the things you cannot do.

  19. #39
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Did I misread. I thought that poster said the bear tank was after alpha. Probably should see what it is now that the closed beta is over.

    Note: I did not misread and I know that. The bear post includes this caveat:

    During closed beta I had a monk that was 130+ AC/130+ PRR and a week later changes to the enhancements had dropped it to ~130 AC/~95 PRR. So, anything from alpha shouldn't be referred to as "fact."
    You should sign up for my "How to play DDO" class where we go over basic and advance game mechanics. That bear has no monk levels, that bear isn't getting that insane 50 PRR from the now gone Defensive Stirkes. None of the changes from alpha to beta should have effected him much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    But, mostly what I see in this thread is the constant whine of people concerning paladins. It really isn't the enhancement pass, it is a constant river of crying over the paladin class. The enhancement pass just gives another excuse to get together and bemoan the unfairness of life.

    To be honest, the constant complaining is way past being old. It is time to start looking at what the game actually lets you do with the character instead of filling your heads and forum space with all the things you cannot do.
    Once again I strongly recommend you sign up for my "How to play DDO" class where we go over basic and advance game mechanics. There you will see that paladins really are that bad and the whining is completely justified. The ENH pass was their last hope to not be terrible and Turbine dropped the ball.

    My rates are reasonable.

  20. #40
    The Hatchery NytCrawlr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    To be honest, the constant complaining is way past being old. It is time to start looking at what the game actually lets you do with the character instead of filling your heads and forum space with all the things you cannot do.
    Well, I will be honest and state that I come from a TT environment, one in which I loved playing Paladins.

    Early on playing this game, I knew them for what they continue to be even to this day, a front loaded overpowered splash class, with the very few exceptions like the Pyrene build.

    So, IMO, most of the complaining is justified.
    Last edited by NytCrawlr; 08-09-2013 at 11:06 AM.

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