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  1. #41
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    But, mostly what I see in this thread is the constant whine of people concerning paladins. It really isn't the enhancement pass, it is a constant river of crying over the paladin class. The enhancement pass just gives another excuse to get together and bemoan the unfairness of life.
    Ok, I’ll play.

    Strip away EDs, strip away multiple lives, strip away premium gear just how does one make a decent pally with passable DPS, and decent defensive capabilities? Yeah, they got decent self-healing. However, you go tank, and DPS really suffers. You go HotD, and you get some nice benes, decent situational DPS, but you really take it in the shorts with it comes mitigating damage.

    I had a HotD pally side-by-side with a kensai fighter in my line-up. Pretty much the same gear, both doing THF, first-life toons. The Fighter was fairly good overall, but the pally has some pretty serious problems. Even after re-working the toon a couple of times, staying in the fight was a big problem because his DPS output wasn’t high enough to hammer-down mobs, and thereby avoiding damage.

    I moved the pally to DoS for second life, stayed pure S&B. It’s nice to be able to sit there and just not take damage while I am fighting, but self-healing mobs are a struggle. Plus, I wanted to learn tanking.

    (Of course, it would be nice if – AHEM – said self-healers weren’t self-healing while held, tripped, ensnared, dancing, and so on. However, that is another matter altogether…)

    So, sticking to the basics, and staying PURE pally, how does one build a paladin that provides passable DPS, and decent defensive capabilities without EDs, multiple lives, and premium gear? And how would they do that post-enhancement pass?

    I’ll be up front and confess that I am in no way an expert on Paladins. I genuinely want to understand how people who play them overcome this seemingly massive divide that I’ve found in the class itself.

  2. #42
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    So, sticking to the basics, and staying PURE pally, how does one build a paladin that provides passable DPS, and decent defensive capabilities without EDs, multiple lives, and premium gear? And how would they do that post-enhancement pass?
    They don't.

  3. #43
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    One thing came to my mind after toying with 18 pally/2 whatever. Dos tree is SO BORING. As if they weren't boring before, with only cleaves, boosts or cocoon. No active abilities or cool stuff, nothing.
    Idiot-proof s+b autoattack.
    Really 2 for saves, 4 for DM or 6 for some PRR.
    MORE BORING than Protector or whatever that divine atrocity is called.
    Shahang Nezhat Bellezza Wipekin Farida of Ghallanda

  4. #44
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post

    I’ll be up front and confess that I am in no way an expert on Paladins. I genuinely want to understand how people who play them overcome this seemingly massive divide that I’ve found in the class itself.
    The answer you would have gotten before the pass (that I honestly don't fully agree with but w/e) is you can't think of Pali like the traditional D&D class, you have to go TWF and use DOS. TWF off hand attacks proc on Smites so every smite is 1.8 boosted attacks leading to some nice crits (when you get a crit) through exulted smiting lines. (note that what they wont tell you is you only get a handful of smites, even when they regen at the max rate with ED Endless smiting twisted in).

    After the pass (if I'm reading things right, to be honest I've kinda given up and am no longer up on the most recent changes to the stances) they have Nerfed DOS (now called Sacred Defender or SD) so that you need a shield equipped to get defender stance benefits, making the non traditional supposedly much better DPS Pali, no longer a viable choice, and also screwing THF Pali's, AKA the weapon most S&B Pali's are using 90% of the time because S&B is so weak you need to switch to a Greataxe when facing trash that doesn't need a full tanked up AC/PRR. They have also made Divine Might buff go from +8 damage at it's highest tier (usually only ever taken by Drow TWF Pali's or Multi TR TWF'ers due to hard 20 CHA requirement) to +4 to hit and +4 damage if you invest the min/max in CHA (about 14 CHA at build time on a first life, anything more and you're actually costing yourself damage due to the build point cost, you can go up to 15 on a TR) +4 tome and full gear to get high CHA... Because divine might now gives a CHA modifier bonus to STRENGTH meaning you need 4 CHA to = 2 STR to = +1 to hit and +1 damage. So 18 CHA = +2 or 26 CHA = +4 or 30 CHA = +5... etc.

    Many people like the changes to DM, and okay whatever, it's still a small loss in DPS on a class that wouldn't even have become relevant if they had made the new DM strictly 1 for 1 Charisma modifier to hit and damage (+10 to hit and damage from 30 charisma which is a realistic number to hit on a Pali) In fact they would still have needed to Buff the class even if DM had been made good like the above example.

    The way to make a good DPS Pali is to take 6 or more FvS and 14 or so Fighter and build it from scratch. As Pali even on live, before it gets nerfed is basically just a "Path" like other Turbine class paths, with non-optimal everything. Splash 2 Pali 12 fighter and 6 FvS and you have massive feats, cure criticals with Meta's and unlike a non UMD Pali you can cast raise dead scrolls and restoration and other Divine goodies because yes a 6 Divine splash gives better scrolls use than even 18 Pali levels give (try it if you don't believe me). Splash 2 Monk and forget about Divine Grace, and you've got Evasion and Wis bonuses and in the new enhancements: Centered non monk Kensai weapon of choice.

    IMO there are all sorts of permutations of Divine + Melee that end up with better everything... This is BEFORE the pass makes it trivial to pick the low hanging DPS and defender fruit from the Pali trees. And before it makes Clerics straight up better Melee's as the Warpriest tree is almost certainly going to do (Because a STR based Battle Cleric right now isn't very far off melee DPS wise, and is worlds better at healing and Spell damage (DOT's BB etc.)

  5. #45
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    IMO there are all sorts of permutations of Divine + Melee that end up with better everything... This is BEFORE the pass makes it trivial to pick the low hanging DPS and defender fruit from the Pali trees. And before it makes Clerics straight up better Melee's as the Warpriest tree is almost certainly going to do (Because a STR based Battle Cleric right now isn't very far off melee DPS wise, and is worlds better at healing and Spell damage (DOT's BB etc.)
    Did a bunch of pally PLs recently as a "DPS" build (took one up to 24) and I'm of the same mind. There really is not such thing as a DPS-pally. i think a battle-cleric is probably better.

  6. #46
    Community Member DeKalbSun's Avatar
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    Actually, I have a non UMD Pally and I'm able to cast raise dead and resurrection scrolls. Maybe this is new because my previous life Pally could not.
    My main toon is a 3rd life Pally. I was thinking of doing a 4th life Pally so I'm hoping for the best here. It's been my favorite class in DDO
    and hope it continues to be.
    Mangas Geronimo (Paladin) Grocery Baggs (Ranger) Naiche Geronimo (Cleric)

    Guild - Orien's Rejects

  7. #47
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    To be honest, the constant complaining is way past being old. It is time to start looking at what the game actually lets you do with the character instead of filling your heads and forum space with all the things you cannot do.
    If no one cares they stay the equivalent of one of Turbine's poorly built "paths"... less viable and poorly regarded by other players. I don't know how many times I've heard a Pali join a group and the comment of "well at least he can self heal" arizes.

    The worsening of Pali's was not warrented, and the EP does exactly that... it makes them less capable and less able. I can only conclude they Turbine is "balancing them" based on Metrics, and not actual in game impact they have. Because Pali's despite being a weak class, are all over the place, due to the games current "BYOH" culture. They are very popular as a class, because they are fairly straight forward to play and build. And that's okay, I have a couple Pali's and I've respecced and TR'ed Pali's I've given up at this point and EP just slammed that coffin lid shut.

  8. #48
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    Default Sigh...

    I'll wait for the pass, but after reading this, it looks like all my work in building, gearing, etc. will be wasted.

    I'm not a fast enough player to want to go through that all again. I'm also not well enough versed in DDO to know how to properly multiclass a suitable alternative. I knew I should have held off on buying the expansion.

    Maybe this will be the final indicator it's time to do something else with my time.

    Hey, didn't the new Franchies Producer say Paladins were his favorite class?

    And if any pure class is regarded as suboptimal by groups, then any new player playing that class will feel judged and left out of the fun and go elswhere.

    Many years ago I played That Other Game and left because if you weren't a caster you either tanked, off-tanked, or sat aside occasionally soloing. And when you DID tank, any misfortune the group encountered was always blamed on you. I worry DDO may become like that.

  9. #49
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I took that discussion and ran with it, rolling up a 12/8 fighter/cleric. Leveled him to 25 and TRed back into the same build. Your point is spot on but you have the details backwards: The 12/8 has better DPS but worse self-healing. Also terrible saves (by comparison) but that's offset by getting better tactical feats.
    Well I was saying a bigger divine split (12 Cleric/FvS 8 Fighter) would be worlds better healing in the previous post... But you're probably talking about the past threads where I supposed that a 6 or 8 FvS split would have "better healing than a Pali" (By which I mean overall total healing ability including raises and greater resto scrolls and the like etc.).

    I know we differ on this and that's cool, but if I was going with Divine split smaller than melee split, I would go FvS because of a couple factors: you don't need wider spell selection that Cleric gets for self heals, (four 4th level spells as opposed to 1 4th for the FvS), getting Bursts from Turns is sweet (which are definitely a big time selling point no doubt). But the FvS is getting a lot more SP assuming we're dumping wis/cha. (base 335 versus 560) And considering we have to meta those heals and use more SP than a Pali might, to get them up in the same range of effectivness (8 FvS or Cleric Versus say 15+ Pali the pali has caster level advantage on his Cure Serious, even though the Divine has Cure critical), the extra SP is big The 6 FvS also gets +60% spell points from items. the 8 FvS (+80%) is going to have pretty easy "better healing" than a Pali, including higher chance to use scrolls. Yes this comes at the cost of having to Meta your cures, but the extra SP makes up for it in my mind. I've had a mid level FvS on more than one occasion with over a thousand SP, a number most full 18+ Pali's aren't going to touch. SO if the Cure criticals cost twice as much as the Pali's Cure serious... well we're still breaking even.

    IMO I've been more than able to always get my Pali's Cure Serious into "more than adequate" territory and often with a 500-ish SP pool... but rarely can I afford Meta's without splashing heavy or reducing feats for DPS and S&B tankishness* So that being the case, a Divine split with 1000-ish SP that needs to Max/Emp (and can easily afford to quicken) even if the heals land for a little less and there's a couple less of them per shrine, is totally viable. And as you said: clearly better DPS.

    * (tankishness, a term I coined to describe a Pali that is not full retard Tank built only for LOB (which barely anyone runs anymore) and the odd Portal Keeper, but intims and DPS+threats his way to pulling mobs off the party's casters and healers and generally helping make the quest smoother)

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    But the FvS is getting a lot more SP assuming we're dumping wis/cha. (base 335 versus 560) And considering we have to meta those heals and use more SP than a Pali might, to get them up in the same range of effectivness (8 FvS or Cleric Versus say 15+ Pali the pali has caster level advantage on his Cure Serious, even though the Divine has Cure critical), the extra SP is big The 6 FvS also gets +60% spell points from items. the 8 FvS (+80%) is going to have pretty easy "better healing" than a Pali, including higher chance to use scrolls. Yes this comes at the cost of having to Meta your cures, but the extra SP makes up for it in my mind. I've had a mid level FvS on more than one occasion with over a thousand SP, a number most full 18+ Pali's aren't going to touch. SO if the Cure criticals cost twice as much as the Pali's Cure serious... well we're still breaking even.
    Well, both my pally and my 12/8 are in th 600-700 SP range. I assume by metas you mean cure critical w/empower heals+maximize, for a total of 55 SP per cast. This 55 SP cure critical would still hit for less than my pally's 22 SP cure serious. Thus, worse healing.

    With the relative costs (55 vs 22) you'd need over 2.5 times the SP pool in order to say the fighter version has more total healing potential, which would be over 1500 spell points. I'm skeptical that much is reasonably attainable.

    I prefer the cleric version for FOM + DW.

  11. #51

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    Okay, so yeah, Vargouille just confirmed in dev chat a few minutes ago that Divine Might was intentionally nerfed into uselessness. Transcription:

    (UserChat1): [To DevChat] 'yeah: does divine might stack with insightful strength items?'

    (UserChat1): [DevChat] +Vargouille: 'Divine Might was changed due to a number of things not stacking within the Paladin trees themselves.'

    (UserChat1): [To DevChat] 'varg, is it a bug that divine might doesn't stack with insightful strength items?'

    (UserChat1): [DevChat] +Vargouille: 'Divine might does not stack with other insightful sources. That is working as intended.'
    Not stacking with insightful strength items? Oy. I've seen some bad dev decisions before, but good god almighty this is one of the worst.

    Pallies just got kicked in the teeth while rolling around on the ground after having been kicked in the nuts.

  12. #52
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Okay, so yeah, Vargouille just confirmed in dev chat a few minutes ago that Divine Might was intentionally nerfed into uselessness. Transcription:

    Not stacking with insightful strength items? Oy. I've seen some bad dev decisions before, but good god almighty this is one of the worst.

    Pallies just got kicked in the teeth while rolling around on the ground after having been kicked in the nuts.
    Well, it always was kinda useless beforehand, with the long casting time and all. But it was at least something...

  13. #53
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    soooo.... the pally is turning into a cheap call girl?

    SWEET! We needed some of those in the lobster.
    Through avarice, evil smiles; through insanity, it sings.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Well, it always was kinda useless beforehand, with the long casting time and all. But it was at least something...
    They even decreased the casting time and bumped up the duration only to hit us with this.

  15. #55
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Not stacking with insightful strength items? Oy. I've seen some bad dev decisions before, but good god almighty this is one of the worst.

    Pallies just got kicked in the teeth while rolling around on the ground after having been kicked in the nuts.
    Um... So what am I missing? Aren't insightful Str items limited to nonstacking bonuses of +2 or +3? Are there others I'm not aware of? Basically sounds like pallys benefit from insightful Str items just fine, and occasionally over write that insightful bonus by using divine might for a bigger, otherwise unattainably higher insightful bonus.

    Also, I keep seeing it mentioned that the defender stance requires a shield, but that's actually only true for higher tiers of the stance. The basic pally defender stance receives it's benefits with or with out a shield, so shieldless builds that only incorporated 6 pally levels for the first tier defender stance shouldn't see a loss there.

    It may be worth noting, I'm not trying to defend the development choices made here, just focusing on what is rather than what I want but isn't there...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Um... So what am I missing? Aren't insightful Str items limited to nonstacking bonuses of +2 or +3? Are there others I'm not aware of? Basically sounds like pallys benefit from insightful Str items just fine, and occasionally over write that insightful bonus by using divine might for a bigger, otherwise unattainably higher insightful bonus.
    I'm going to guess you've never played a pure Paladin.

    Before going any further, I think I should point out that around 30 Cha seems to be a pretty safe number to say that Paladins can achieve without gimping themselves too much elsewhere. Depending on the build and gear, that number can be a bit lower or a bit higher. If I'm wrong about this, I'd like someone to correct me.

    The only general DPS bonus for paladins is Divine Might. All other sources of DPS only affect Evil and either Undead or Evil Outsiders. This is the only boost paladins get to do damage to mobs that are neutral and good, such as constructs, elementals, animals, vermin, plants, etc.

    On Live, Divine Might IV requires a base CHA of 20 and provides only 8 damage. The new version removes the requirement but ties the Cha to the Str bonus. To get that 8 damage from Divine Might, a paladin must have 42 Cha. Not the previous 20 Cha. Not the achievable numbers of 27 Cha to 34 Cha. The Paladin needs 42 Cha!

    And now the Devs have taken the Insight bonus away from Paladins when they use Divine Might. So that's an additional 1 to 2 damage with current gear; with the way stats are increasing on gear with this update, it's a potential removal of larger amounts of damage that paldins could benefit from.

  17. #57
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Because divine might now gives a CHA modifier bonus to STRENGTH meaning you need 4 CHA to = 2 STR to = +1 to hit and +1 damage. So 18 CHA = +2 or 26 CHA = +4 or 30 CHA = +5... etc.
    The first paladins in D&D had to start with a minimum 17 CHA. The class has always been CHA based. I strongly recommend that players consider using CHA based weapons. This makes Divine Might pointless in the new system since CHA based weapons get nothing from STR. Choose something else from the enhancement tree.

    But, if you go STR based then understand that the value from Divine Might is CHA modifier/2 -- so don't gimp CHA on your paladin.

    It is not true that you must go sword and board to gain from defender stance. The only stance in Sacred Defender is called Sacred Defense. Sacred Defense gives 10 PRR.

    There are 2 different portions of the enhancement tree that boost the effectiveness of this stance. The earliest of these is called Durable Defense. It provides +15 PRR at tier 1 with a 3 AP investment. The later portion is called Greater Sacred Defense and offers a sacred bonus to STR, CON or HP if you equip a shield but no increase to PRR. So the statement that the defender stance requires a shield is false.

    In addition you can get Harbored by Light at tier 5 and with an expenditure of 6 AP pick up another 25 PRR. This is stance free. On top of all of this, at tier 4 you can get Reinforced Armor with a 50% AC increase from armor at the cost of 6 AP.

    None of this requires the use of a shield.

    What this means is that people complaining about how things work simply do not know what they are talking about.

    My L17 bladeforged Paladin has 75 PRR with the composite body feat while using the Sacred Defense stance, duel wielding Dynastic Falcata -- ie, no shield or PRR from shield or shield feats. Note that this is more PRR than should be expected (ie, Harbored by Light is actually providing 50 PRR to my bladeforge). I don't know if this is a perk of the race or if the description for HbL is wrong or if it is a bug.

    Nevertheless, this is 20 PRR less than my monk gets with ED at L28 on Lamannia. What it means is that the observation on defenses being weak under the new enhancements is wrong.

  18. #58
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    The only general DPS bonus for paladins is Divine Might. All other sources of DPS only affect Evil and either Undead or Evil Outsiders. This is the only boost paladins get to do damage to mobs that are neutral and good, such as constructs, elementals, animals, vermin, plants, etc.
    Which is a constant worry since at end game and in the vast majority of heroic content boss fights these are the enemies you will be facing. There is hardly an evil monster to be found in any portion of DDO and we all know that the role of Paladins has always been to kill off neutral and good monsters.

    This whine is just ridiculous in the extreme. The number of quests in which the important mobs or bosses are not evil is so small that I think they can be counted on one hand.

    I would be extremely concerned about this horrible oversight.

  19. #59
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    The first paladins in D&D had to start with a minimum 17 CHA. The class has always been CHA based. I strongly recommend that players consider using CHA based weapons. This makes Divine Might pointless in the new system since CHA based weapons get nothing from STR. Choose something else from the enhancement tree.

    But, if you go STR based then understand that the value from Divine Might is CHA modifier/2 -- so don't gimp CHA on your paladin.

    It is not true that you must go sword and board to gain from defender stance. The only stance in Sacred Defender is called Sacred Defense. Sacred Defense gives 10 PRR.

    There are 2 different portions of the enhancement tree that boost the effectiveness of this stance. The earliest of these is called Durable Defense. It provides +15 PRR at tier 1 with a 3 AP investment. The later portion is called Greater Sacred Defense and offers a sacred bonus to STR, CON or HP if you equip a shield but no increase to PRR. So the statement that the defender stance requires a shield is false.

    In addition you can get Harbored by Light at tier 5 and with an expenditure of 6 AP pick up another 25 PRR. This is stance free. On top of all of this, at tier 4 you can get Reinforced Armor with a 50% AC increase from armor at the cost of 6 AP.

    None of this requires the use of a shield.

    What this means is that people complaining about how things work simply do not know what they are talking about.

    My L17 bladeforged Paladin has 75 PRR with the composite body feat while using the Sacred Defense stance, duel wielding Dynastic Falcata -- ie, no shield or PRR from shield or shield feats. Note that this is more PRR than should be expected (ie, Harbored by Light is actually providing 50 PRR to my bladeforge). I don't know if this is a perk of the race or if the description for HbL is wrong or if it is a bug.

    Nevertheless, this is 20 PRR less than my monk gets with ED at L28 on Lamannia. What it means is that the observation on defenses being weak under the new enhancements is wrong.
    And pray tell me what PRR has to do with DM4 and the clear nerf to dps? This was a stupid stupid stupid move period no matter how you spin it.
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    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  20. #60
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    IThe new version removes the requirement but ties the Cha to the Str bonus. To get that 8 damage from Divine Might, a paladin must have 42 Cha. Not the previous 20 Cha. Not the achievable numbers of 27 Cha to 34 Cha. The Paladin needs 42 Cha!
    So, don't ignore CHA on your paladin any longer. My bladeforged at L17 is running with 34 CHA. It isn't such a jump from there to 42.

    OTOH, he isn't STR based or using STR dependent weapons.

    Now, what I'd hoped would happen with DM is that it would add the CHA bonus to hit and damage (not to STR points) so that every paladin would benefit from it. But, that isn't what is happening so life goes on.

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