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  1. #41
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    To start with, I'm glad to see others chiming in on the thread. It is straying from the original question but still remaining close enough.

    Now, on to Deathdefy's post....

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    By "High" I mean 40. Literally exactly 40, which is really hard to do.
    Ranger 12/Paladin 4/Rogue 2 (L18) -- Reflex save with paladin CHA modifier to all saves, 32 DEX and Chaosrobe (upgraded) is 41. It wasn't hard at all.

    And, since this should be kept within the context of the thread itself, discussing other character classes than ranger is immaterial since that doesn't get anyone the ranger past life.

    Now, I'm more interested in this observation:

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    CSW (Max + Quicken) and CMW (Max + Quicken) on the same hotbar is adequate self-healing whereas just CMW is not, even if you have +10% HAMP.
    I'll just have to apologize up front. I've never found that I needed that much healing on heroic content. This is probably some sort of difference in how we resolve encounters. But, I've never had the need to maximize and quicken in heroic content or to run CSW on the hotbar. I seldom carry CSW on any character. I've always found CMW to be adequate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    A little extra damage isn't needed in the heroic levels.
    I don't consider the difference between 75 damage and 125 damage to be a "little extra damage." It is a lot of extra damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    And learn to state your (certainly valid) position without putting down anyone who disagrees with you as a moron. You do that in real life too?
    Yes, when the person I'm talking to stubbornly holds onto their views in spite of having them methodically and factually shown to be be wrong. What do you do, cave in to their ignorance?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Also, something to keep in mind about the 12/4/4 build is that you are comparing those builds at level 20... which the OP will be at for about 5 minutes.

    So compare them at levels 11-18... with limited APs... Some builds that are better at the end are not necessarily better while leveling.
    In fact, we rolled back the discussion to L18 and the advantage still lies with the 12/4/- build. At L11 both builds would presumably be 1 rogue/10 ranger. Differences there would be transitory and any advantage that DEX might give would be illusory since it would be lost by L18.

    Frankly, heroic content is so easy that any approach works. But, in the case of a ranger leveled for the purpose of a past life, STR is still the best option.

  2. #42
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    Racial choices can modify max dex bonus. Were those calculated into your equations? Also what about the benefit of evasion? (I think strength based is better but figure you should address all aspects)
    I assumed human. One could certainly choose elf/half-elf/halfling/drow for a DEX advantage. The obvious counter is to choose half-orc for a STR advantage. As a result the assessment keeping DEX/STR neutral with respect to race is valid.

    Now, if a player were compelled to choose halfling for -2 STR and +2 DEX that would shift the numbers. But, the total still favors STR in the long run.

    Regarding evasion, evasion is a reflex save. The build with the highest reflex save is the better one. In the long run this is the STR build as I've shown several times in the thread.

  3. #43
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Yes, when the person I'm talking to stubbornly holds onto their views in spite of having them methodically and factually shown to be be wrong. What do you do, cave in to their ignorance?
    I have yet to say anything that is incorrect. The reason people are coming out against you is you're coming off as an elites who things one very specific option is the only one. Viable vs Optimal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Frankly, heroic content is so easy that any approach works. But, in the case of a ranger leveled for the purpose of a past life, STR is still the best option.
    Exactly and that's why there are other viable builds.

  4. #44
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    I have never said a Ranger over 18 should be Dex based. I've said that a number of time over and over. It's clear your not paying attention and hell bent on proving that you one Ranger with 4 Paladin splash is the only ranger any one should play that's a very short sighted argument.
    Honestly, I don't care what OP decides to do. I'm not proving that 4 paladin splash is the only one that should be played, I've never even suggested that.

    What I said is that something new is going to come along and that 4 paladin splash is obviously superior to anything you've had to offer. I'll gladly concede that some smarter person than me will come up with the build that will replace the exploiter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    That you don't get the difference between Viable and Optimal this is also the comment that set you off I believe unfortunately its true you're stuck on the 4 Paladin being better then every thing else (it might actually be, but I wouldn't do it in you split 15/4/1 STR based Ranger/Paladin/Rogue is a better build then you're 12/4/4 CSW alone makes it better in the area of BYOH).
    If by viable you mean "clearly inferior" then you are right, I don't get the difference between viable and optimal. Because DEX in this case is clearly inferior.

    Viable means that it will work. And, in a broad sense I'll even concede that any build will work for heroic content. I mean, I was the one who built a 6 CON drow melee character and ran it to L20 just to prove it could be done.

    In the game's context viable means close enough to optimal that the differences are trivial. We might use that to describe the lower reflex saves of your DEX suggestion or the lower AC -- yes the DEX build is lower but by only a point or two so it isn't really enough to get in a sweat over.

    But, giving up 50 points of damage per hit isn't a minor difference. To put it in context, it is 67% of the total damage of the DEX build and more than a 35% loss in total damage. That isn't a trivial amount. Put it in dollars, is $125 a lot more than $75? Unless you are just independently wealthy it is a huge difference. And the same is true in the case of damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    The only thing keeping from going Dex-based is tactics. Stunning blow offers a ridiculous amount of DPS.
    Let's don't even go there. But, this might be the reason why I'm not as concerned about CSW in BYOH as others.

  5. #45
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Ranger 12/Paladin 4/Rogue 2 (L18) -- Reflex save with paladin CHA modifier to all saves, 32 DEX and Chaosrobe (upgraded) is 41. It wasn't hard at all.
    Wait, so is this 32 dex-based or you just incidentally happened to have 32 dex? What is your Cha and what on earth is your Str if dex is somehow not your primary stat but is 32? I'm afraid without showing your stat and tome assumptions I struggle to get on board here.

    I don't understand what you're saying beyond agreeing with me that being dex-based is necessary to hit 41 reflex.



    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    And, since this should be kept within the context of the thread itself, discussing other character classes than ranger is immaterial since that doesn't get anyone the ranger past life.
    What? I was saying splashing 1 Monk is good for reflex. On any life. Including a Ranger life. Like this one.



    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I'll just have to apologize up front. I've never found that I needed that much healing on heroic content. This is probably some sort of difference in how we resolve encounters. But, I've never had the need to maximize and quicken in heroic content or to run CSW on the hotbar. I seldom carry CSW on any character. I've always found CMW to be adequate.
    I 100% agree that 99% of Heroic is trivial. But, at level 18,
    -Elite ETK rolling a 1 on a fireball wants quickened CSW then quickened CMW spam, possibly multiple times as you run screaming around the lava moat.
    -Ditto MoTS if you're kiting sannyasi, or get cometfalled or just swarmed earlier.
    -Ditto Yaulthoon fight,
    -Ditto IQ at times if you do it.
    -Lord of Eyes end fight I've wanted it (stupid billion eyes).
    -Acute delirium
    -Ice Flensers with their polar ray even these days.
    -Certainly the Red Name at the end of Running With the Devils when you're just trading blows for 200 point light Rays.

    It's not about the easy content, it's about saving your buns on the very odd occasion when without it you'd die, which indeed, shouldn't be often.

    Having said that "never having the need to have maximize quickened CSW on your hotbar" is a huge statement that I just can't empathize with, so despite considering myself reasonably good at this game, you may be a significant cut above myself. Or it was hyperbole.

    I will speak for the masses and say the situations I have outlined above do actually occur for most players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I don't consider the difference between 75 damage and 125 damage to be a "little extra damage." It is a lot of extra damage.
    Instakill weapons when things are under 1000HP. That's the whole of heroic apart from IQ. I have no idea why vorpals, banishers, smiters and disruptors are out of vogue generally, but I assure you that TR-vunderkind carry a full stable of these.

    Damage doesn't matter. Again, damage doesn't matter.

    All these things are very easily available, and weapon choice is largely irrelevant, so the Auction House's 6k plat +1 Acid Light Mace of Banishing is pimp even in Elite RWTD.

    These forums genuinely do shock me at times, and the idea that damage per swing in heroics matters even faintly for choosing a past-life build is one of those disheartening occasions. Saying that is important is bad.

    Survivability, both for new players and experienced players running a fast TR life, is infinitely more important while these weapon mods exist.


    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Yes, when the person I'm talking to stubbornly holds onto their views in spite of having them methodically and factually shown to be be wrong. What do you do, cave in to their ignorance?
    I had intended to quit this discussion but my return is proof of my answer to this question.


    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    In fact, we rolled back the discussion to L18 and the advantage still lies with the 12/4/- build.
    Nah. I don't believe reflex (which at best is on par with no-fail saves, though I truly don't think the 12/4/2 thing is on par), and you've conceded self-healing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    At L11 both builds would presumably be 1 rogue/10 ranger. Differences there would be transitory and any advantage that DEX might give would be illusory since it would be lost by L18.
    Assertion. "Would not" is a sufficient rebuttal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Frankly, heroic content is so easy that any approach works. But, in the case of a ranger leveled for the purpose of a past life, STR is still the best option.
    Assertion. "Would not" is a sufficient rebuttal.
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
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  6. #46
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    If by viable you mean "clearly inferior" then you are right, I don't get the difference between viable and optimal. Because DEX in this case is clearly inferior.
    It is not 'clearly Inferior' if you are not splashing Paladin for DM. You seam to have admitted that even here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    If the decision is to give up paladin levels then we can force the choice between DEX and STR to be much closer. I'd be inclined to argue that FoM is readily available so not valuable enough to warrant dropping paladin levels. It is after all available on a L9 item.
    Of course the problem is


    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    But is stupid. Why give up DM when you don't have to? To continue to run exploiter? Now which of us is stuck in the past (as you accused me of)?
    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Honestly, I don't care what OP decides to do. I'm not proving that 4 paladin splash is the only one that should be played, I've never even suggested that.
    Those two sentences contradict each other you think any one who doesn't splash for DM is "stupid" you have suggested that.

  7. #47
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    In the past month I capped a STR-based Human 11 Ranger/9 Monk twice for Ranger past lives while keeping an elite bravery bonus the entire time. Damage avoidance is great with Ninja Spy and Improved Evasion, and healing with Empower Heal Spell + Devotion enhancements made it easy. There's no rocket science involved here. I was either using handwraps (I have quite a collection), or a crafted quarterstaff when I wanted AE damage. My Reflex save was ~31 at level 18, which includes a +5 Resistance item and Greater Heroism.

    Edit: Gear wise, I always had 20% healing amp starting with Levik's Bracers at level 13. At 16 I had 10% and 20% hamp from Dragontouched robes, 30% from Human and 20% from Monk. Ranger healing spells go a long way in heroic content when you stack healing amp.
    Last edited by Carpone; 08-16-2013 at 01:40 PM.
    U19 Kensei: Centered Cleaver | TR Junkie Leveling Framework

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  8. #48
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    I have real life which is going to impact my continued participation in this discussion. I will be out of town with my daughter at a soccer tournament and then we have friends from Germany arriving. I won't be back until late Sunday if I manage to steal time for DDO at all.

    The answers to stat questions and my assumptions about them are elsewhere in this thread. Some of them are optimistic because they require gutting a lot of the enhancement choices. OTOH, I applied the same standard in pushing the DEX build numbers to 44.

    A recap from starting stats of 16/14/16/14/8/8 at L18:

    STR

    16 base
    04 stat increases
    04 tome
    05 enhancements
    06 Divine Might (8 base + 4 tome + 6 item + 1 exception + 2 insight + 1 enhancement)
    06 stat item
    01 exceptional stat item
    02 insight stat item
    02 ship buff (lesser strength shrine)
    02 Ram's Might
    02 Rage
    --
    50 -> +20

    CHA

    08 base
    04 tome
    06 item
    01 exceptional
    02 insight
    01 enhancement
    --
    22 -> +6

    DEX

    14 base
    04 tome
    06 item
    01 exceptional
    02 insight
    03 enhancement
    --
    30 -> +10

    Note that while ap heavy and gutting enhancements to get the stat enhancements that this is achievable on 12/4/4. Values after more serious consideration and at L18 with the reduced ap might be slightly lower.

    Carpone, ranger 11/monk 9 is one of the builds I suggested to OP early in the discussion. In spite of contrary opinions from other posters if I were to push a build that is the one I would push. OTOH, I'm a monk player and prefer them for most things. Monk 9/anything 11 is my default for past lives -- problematic for a couple of classes but generally my preference.

  9. #49
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    Those two sentences contradict each other you think any one who doesn't splash for DM is "stupid" you have suggested that.
    Didn't suggest it, said it. Until you provide a build that gives more damage per hit the statement will remain true.

    That doesn't contradict that I don't care what OP decides. People are free to make stupid decisions if they choose. Many of the assumptions I make in the 12/4/4 are stupid when weighed against the ap cost and what is skipped in the enhancement trees.

    Anyway, as I said a moment ago, I have real life to get to. On Monday we'll see what the real builders come up with as the update hits.

    Until then, as long as viable means vastly inferior you win. I know that will make you happy.

  10. #50
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    3 x Insightful Stat, 3 x Exceptional Stat
    That's some impressive Insightful / Exceptional gear slottage for level 18!

    Literally impossible even without gimping up a greensteel weapon with Insightful and exceptional stat bonuses instead of damage and permanently holding it, which ruins the damage per swing claims I imagine.

    I suspect 5 str enhancements, 1 cha enhancement, and 3 dex enhancements is also in the literally impossible basket, though I'm not going to mock up enhancement trees to find out.

    Anyway, my grave doubts as to your ability to pull off no-fail except on a 1 reflex saves remain. Not that you need to to reach 20, not that strength base is gimp or laughable, but I would much rather run a Dex based Ranger than the Paladin splash thing that requires very onerous (read 'impossible') gearing and enhancements for moderate dps gain (though your calcs didn't give the Dex build power attack even?) and massive self-healing detriments.

    On 11 Ranger / 9 Monk:

    I can see if you're stacking H-Amp that 11 Ranger / 7 Monk at 18 makes sense too. Obviously there's no ToD or Improved Evasion while levelling though, which was another part of the 'here's what it looks like at 20' silliness early on in the thread that inspired me to mire myself in this thread.

    I don't know. If you have the H-Amp I can see how that would be very enjoyable; and probably comparable in the two areas I care most about being on a TR being Self-Healing and Evasion.

    No hate from me on it. I also love ninja-spy and think that's probably a pimp split.

    I appreciate you're off IRL Therigar, and I'm going to sleep. Have a good trip. This isn't intended as a sneaky last word, so reply when you're back if you still care and I will do similarly if I still care haha.
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
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  11. #51
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    STR

    16 base
    04 stat increases
    04 tome
    05 enhancements
    06 Divine Might (8 base + 4 tome + 6 item + 1 exception + 2 insight + 1 enhancement)
    06 stat item
    01 exceptional stat item
    02 insight stat item
    02 ship buff (lesser strength shrine)
    02 Ram's Might
    02 Rage
    --
    50 -> +20
    At this time Divine Might is an insight bonus it will not stack with the +2 Insightful Strength Stat Item your down two and have spend 22 AP in Knights of the Chalice to get +2 Str that's a waist IMO. 4 DM+2Rage+2Rams+2Enh = 10 that's +5 Damage over a Dex based Exploiter and the Exploiter has 1 more favored enemy cutting that down to only +3 damage bonus. A tradition Exploiter will come out +1 lower vs favored enemy and probably have have more Sneak attack then your 12/4/2 because of Deepwood sniper and more AP to spend on better things then +2 Str.

    Also I already showed that +5 Damage is about 1 second difference in killing something around Lv16 might go to 2 at Lv18.

    My take on ENH for a 16/1/1 (others will want more out of AA i Like all the SA in Deeepwood)

    03 Ap Ninja Spy +1d6 SA
    03 AP Assasin +1d6 SA
    22 AP Deepwood Stalker +4d6 (3 in Core 1 in tier 3 Stealth), +75 Devotion, Called Shot, Aimed Shot, Thrill of the Hunt
    27 AP Tempest 100% Offhand, +4 Hit/Damage, +6 PRR, 30% Haste Boost, +2 Str (@20 +10 PRR, Improved Evastion, 5% Double Strike)
    17 Ap Human 30% Hamp, Damage Boost, +1 Str, Skill Boost, Action Surge +2 Con/Str
    Last edited by Grailhawk; 08-16-2013 at 04:07 PM.

  12. #52
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    I know that most of this becomes moot with the update. And, I have been having fun watching how some people (Grailhawk) keep jumping back and forth among builds trying to get one that fits their need.

    Still, I'll take time to make final observations from my perspective.

    Critiques of my optimistic numbers look to be valid. Let me see if I can provide more realistic numbers for everyone. BTW, I do include Power Attack in damage calculations (and have been doing so).

    For a DEX build at ranger 18:

    18 base
    04 tome
    04 stat increases
    03 enhancements* (1 human and 2 ranger)
    06 stat item
    01 exceptional stat item
    02 ship buff (lesser dexterity shrine)
    --
    38 -> +14 damage

    Damage calculation for DEX build:

    14 DEX damage
    05 weapon bonus
    08 Favored Enemy
    05 Power Attack
    04 ranger whirling blades
    02 Ram's Might
    02 ship buff (Darguun Hobgoblin)
    --
    40 added damage

    Revised calculation using seeker 6 for Lit II scimitar:

    0.65(45.25) + 0.3(2(51.25)) + 0.95(10.5) + 0.3(11) + 0.05(14) = 74.1375 or ~74.

    STR calculation for Ranger 12/Rogue 2/Paladin 4:

    16 base
    04 stat increases
    04 tome
    05 Divine Might**
    06 stat item
    01 exceptional stat item
    02 enhancement (ranger)
    02 ship buff (lesser strength shrine)
    02 Ram's Might
    02 Rage
    --
    42 -> +17 damage

    Damage calculation:

    16 STR damage
    05 weapon bonus
    06 Favored Enemy
    05 Power Attack
    04 ranger whirling blades
    02 Ram's Might
    04 Exalted Smite
    02 ship buff (Darguun Hobgoblin)
    --
    44 added damage

    Revised calculation using Exhalted Smite and adding 2d6 sneak attack damage from rogue 2 and seeker 6 for Lit II khopesh:

    .65(51.75) + 0.2(5(57.75) + 0.95(17.5) + 0.3(44) + 0.05(14) = 115.3125 or ~115.

    The damage per hit is 74 for the DEX build v 115 for the STR build. Against a 700 hp mob (the original example) that is 10 hits for the DEX build v 7 for the STR build. This is ~30% faster to kill the mob with the STR build.

    The objections have been that AC and reflex saves would be worse. That isn't true either.

    Reflex save for the DEX build assuming ranger 18:

    11 base (ranger)
    14 DEX modifier
    10 Chaosrobe
    02 insightful reflexes
    03 ranger improved reactions
    --
    40 reflex save

    DEX calculations for Ranger 12/Rogue 2/Paladin 4:

    14 base
    04 tome
    06 item
    01 exception
    01 enhancement (ranger)
    --
    26 -> +8

    Reflex save calculation:

    13 base (ranger/rogue/paladin)
    08 DEX bonus
    10 Chaosrobe
    05 CHA bonus (paladin)
    02 insightful reflexes
    03 ranger improved reactions
    --
    40 -> reflex save

    We'll assume this is moot since the target is 40 and both builds are there.

    AC calculations for ranger 18:

    10 base
    08 bracers
    14 DEX modifier
    02 protection item
    05 ranger improved defense
    --
    39 AC

    AC*** calculations for ranger 12/rogue 2/paladin 4

    10 base
    08 bracers
    09 DEX modifier
    02 protection item
    03 paladin sacred armor mastery
    05 ranger improved defense
    06 paladin bulwark aura
    --
    43 AC

    This is 4 points higher AC for the multiclass build.

    Now, the final objections that will be raise will have to do with enhancement choices. I can appreciate that since there is nowhere else for proponents of the DEX build to retreat on this debate.

    As laid out here, the multiclass build that I set up on Lamannia (to double check that everything is possible on the same build) still has 9ap available to spend.

    In any case, new update. It has been a fun debate but today brings time for sitting in game rather than debating builds. Will be that way for a while, at least for me.

    ---------
    Notes:

    * Grailhawk's initial "realistic" numbers for L18 character with DEX focus is 3 enhancement points to DEX.

    ** CHA calculations for Ranger 12/Rogue 2/Paladin 4 to determine STR insight bonus:

    CHA:

    08 base
    04 tome
    06 item
    01 exception
    01 enhancement (human)
    --
    20 -> +5

    *** AC for multiclass could also include combat expertise when AC is of critical importance as suggested build has both power attack for damage and combat expertise for AC and can use whichever is most appropriate for the moment.
    Last edited by Therigar; 08-19-2013 at 02:52 PM.

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