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  1. #1
    Community Member Son_of_the_South's Avatar
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    Default Build Request - Ranger Past Life

    Looking to get Ranger past life and seeking a build that can reliably self heal (hate having to rely on hires). TR as soon as hit 20. Prob cap in the Vale.
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  2. #2
    Community Member SiliconShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son_of_the_South View Post
    Looking to get Ranger past life and seeking a build that can reliably self heal (hate having to rely on hires). TR as soon as hit 20. Prob cap in the Vale.
    Just get positive energy items / slot positive energy and get a little extra wisdom + wisdom item + wizardry item and you won't have a problem healing. If you go melee make sure you get you concentration up. Recommend in the new update go for a dex based tempest / rogue combination.

    18 ranger 2 rogue for example, dex/con/wis and use dex to hit and damage. Massive reflex save, capped dodge and high AC with the ability to do traps. You might want to fiddle with the rogue split 9/11 works for more SA damage and add in DWS sneak as well giving you quite a lot of SA to go in with it. Make sure to look at the new enhancement trees before deciding.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Son_of_the_South's Avatar
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    Thanks for the feedback. Yes waiting on the EP before making any solid decisions but you've given some food for thought here, appreciated.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    DEX based ranger/rogue is the wrong answer.

    Ranger/rogue isn't necessarily bad but there's no reason to go DEX based. The changes to the enhancement system make it so that you don't even need the 13 DEX that rangers used to have to qualify the dodge feat.

    STR based is the way to go with rangers under the new system. A 12/4/4 ranger/rogue/paladin offers too many goodies to choose from but is probably worth investigating. The build is all STR, CON and CHA with anything left over thrown at INT. Go half-elf and you can be a tempest arcane archer. Throw away the rogue levels and take monk and you can be a tempest arcane monkcher.

    Paladin line offers some useful PRR, monk gives access to 10k stars and zen archery, ranger gives 100% off-hand procs, monk also opens short swords as monk weapons if you don't go with wraps. Ranger and paladin give access to various types of self healing.

    Lastly, don't ignore Heal in skill selections. Heal gives a boost to all cure spells.

  5. #5
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    One more thing, if you are only looking for the ranger past life I would seriously consider monk 9/ranger 11. Build and play as a standard monk build with WIS and DEX for AC, plenty of dodge, etc.

  6. #6
    Community Member SiliconShadow's Avatar
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    I totally disagree with the above for just a ranger life.

    For a fast and safe life, not for a perma dps character dexterity is the better option in the new update. This is purely because you can hit and dmg off dex, it adds to your ac and reflex save.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconShadow View Post
    I totally disagree with the above for just a ranger life.

    For a fast and safe life, not for a perma dps character dexterity is the better option in the new update. This is purely because you can hit and dmg off dex, it adds to your ac and reflex save.
    I understand the thought process but this is wrong.

    A player working from 32 points will be better off going 16 STR, 14 DEX, 16 CON, 14 INT. This gives the best of all worlds.

    Going with 14 DEX and INT opens both the dodge line and combat expertise for maximum AC benefit. DEX modifier to AC is limited to 6 or less on most heroic light armor. A 14 DEX with appropriate tomes and gear will hit 24 by L20 for a 7 modifier. Meanwhile, combat expertise is a 10% AC boost. At 40 AC that is +4 -- DEX modifier would have to jump to 10 on armor and DEX would have to reach 32 to achieve the same thing.

    Because STR is more easily raised than DEX the 16 STR is better than an 18 DEX. Ram's Might immediately overcomes the DEX advantage and Rage makes STR the better stat.

    SiliconShadow can disagree, but they are wrong. There is no circumstance in heroic levels where DEX is better than STR.

    Because INT is the key stat for search and disable, along with skill points, high INT is clearly called for. If you want something amusing play a dwarf artificer 2/ranger 18. Get the full range of rogue skills, use the racial bonus in CON to hold it at 16 and raise INT to 16. Get access to arcane archer and tempest with the new enhancement lines plus open repeater and rune arm use for situations where arcane archer and many shot isn't cutting it.

    Or, go half-elf with stats like I suggest at 11/9 going full monkcher with AA and 10K stars.

    But, whatever you do, don't go DEX based. It is absolutely the wrong approach for a heroic build.
    Last edited by Therigar; 08-15-2013 at 12:21 PM.

  8. #8
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    It is absolutely the wrong approach for a heroic build.
    Note this last statement I make. Here is the crucial point of disagreement with SiliconShadow. DEX might be a reasonable choice for epic builds assuming you have the right weapon selection and enough rogue levels. I especially expect to see rogue assassin builds really pushing the envelope of INT and DEX in an effort to pull off assassinations in epic content.

    I also expect to see some monk builds pushing DEX for the synergy with WIS. Since these builds already dump STR it makes sense for them to try to work DEX into the mix. Henshin might be a really popular choice for a while.

  9. #9
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    It is absolutely the wrong approach for a heroic build.
    You're over stating it. Str is the optimal choice but Dex is viable. In heroic you're looking at what +4 more STR (Rage and Rams Might) that's not really all that much, and for a past life you really don't need optimal, hell for 99% of DDO you don't need optimal.

  10. #10
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    You're over stating it. Str is the optimal choice but Dex is viable. In heroic you're looking at what +4 more STR (Rage and Rams Might) that's not really all that much, and for a past life you really don't need optimal, hell for 99% of DDO you don't need optimal.
    It isn't just the STR difference, it is the damage difference due to weapon choices. DEX has always been viable but suboptimal. Now it is less suboptimal. But, it is still the suboptimal choice.

    To excuse that by saying DEX is viable is irresponsible. To suggest DEX instead of STR when there is no advantage to DEX at all is close to criminal.

    I'm supportive of DEX builds -- I often suggest them as an alternative. But, just because they are viable that does not mean they are the best choice -- or even a good choice.

    DEX builds should only be used when there is a clear advantage. Examples are monks where the synergy of DEX and WIS yields AC in the 120+ range or rogues where the DEX contributes to other essential aspects of the build (sneak for assassination).

    There is no clear advantage to DEX on a ranger build. Added DEX is not needed to hit if a player decides to go AA. Since there is no intent to play at epic levels there is no need to qualify epic feats. To the contrary, AA gain more damage by being STR based without affecting the chances to hit on heroic content. And melee gains both to hit and to damage as well as working from higher damage output weapons.

    DEX is as bad as I am making it out to be for this build. Not understanding that is just willful ignorance and has no basis in fact.

  11. #11
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    It isn't just the STR difference, it is the damage difference due to weapon choices. DEX has always been viable but suboptimal. Now it is less suboptimal. But, it is still the suboptimal choice.

    To excuse that by saying DEX is viable is irresponsible. To suggest DEX instead of STR when there is no advantage to DEX at all is close to criminal.

    I'm supportive of DEX builds -- I often suggest them as an alternative. But, just because they are viable that does not mean they are the best choice -- or even a good choice.

    DEX builds should only be used when there is a clear advantage. Examples are monks where the synergy of DEX and WIS yields AC in the 120+ range or rogues where the DEX contributes to other essential aspects of the build (sneak for assassination).

    There is no clear advantage to DEX on a ranger build. Added DEX is not needed to hit if a player decides to go AA. Since there is no intent to play at epic levels there is no need to qualify epic feats. To the contrary, AA gain more damage by being STR based without affecting the chances to hit on heroic content. And melee gains both to hit and to damage as well as working from higher damage output weapons.

    DEX is as bad as I am making it out to be for this build. Not understanding that is just willful ignorance and has no basis in fact.
    You don't understand the different between viable and optimal. Dex to damage is not the best choice but it is not a bad choice any more (It was not viable before they let you get it to damage). Its a trade of a bit of Damage for a bit of Reflex. In Epic levels this trade is not worth it in heroic levels this is insignificant

    As for weapon selection that's a bogus argument Scimitars and Rapiers are so close to Khopesh in heroic that it's a trivial difference (Same goes for Dwarven Axe and Bastard Swords) and in epics there are CiTW weapons, not that those are relevant to this guys build as he's just looking for a PL.

    The real arguments for Str over Dex are tactics (which are have traditionally been debatable on a Ranger), that you must burn a feat on it, and that there is more Str in the game then Dex and that's not a concern till 20+.

    If there's something I'm missing show me but otherwise I think your just letting old biases get in the way.

  12. #12
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    You don't understand the different between viable and optimal.
    Don't be stupid. Viable means, literally, "able to live" or, in this context, "able to work." Even with things as they are right now DEX builds are viable. I've run several of them and they work.

    That is a far cry from being optimal. Optimal means most favorable -- no DEX build will ever be that when we are talking rangers.

    Pre U14 it might have been possible to build an arcane archer with DEX as the principle stat and have that be optimal over a STR build. But, since the changes in how to hit works that is no longer the case. The only need is sufficient DEX to hit.

    On tempest rangers DEX as the principle stat was never optimal.

    As for old biases, that is incorrect as well.

    Any weapon working from 16 base STR as I suggest with Ram's Might and Rage both running puts a character 1 point ahead of DEX builds that build starts at 18, even with DEX builds that start at 20. So, immediately, there is no advantage to DEX whatsoever.

    Next, scimitars and rapiers are NOT equivalent to khopesh. Khopesh is d8 19-20/x3. Rapiers and scimitars are d6 18-20/x2. The difference is significant. Without keen and assuming every attack hits khopesh averages 4.5*24=108 while rapier/scimitar averages 3.5*23=80.5. That is a loss of >27 points of damage thru 20 attacks.

    With keen the numbers are 4.5*28=128 v 3.5*26=91, a difference of 17 points of damage. When you figure in burst and other type damages the distance between the two grows. It never shrinks.

  13. #13
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Don't be stupid. Viable means, literally, "able to live" or, in this context, "able to work." Even with things as they are right now DEX builds are viable. I've run several of them and they work.

    That is a far cry from being optimal. Optimal means most favorable -- no DEX build will ever be that when we are talking rangers.

    Pre U14 it might have been possible to build an arcane archer with DEX as the principle stat and have that be optimal over a STR build. But, since the changes in how to hit works that is no longer the case. The only need is sufficient DEX to hit.

    On tempest rangers DEX as the principle stat was never optimal.

    As for old biases, that is incorrect as well.

    Any weapon working from 16 base STR as I suggest with Ram's Might and Rage both running puts a character 1 point ahead of DEX builds that build starts at 18, even with DEX builds that start at 20. So, immediately, there is no advantage to DEX whatsoever.

    Next, scimitars and rapiers are NOT equivalent to khopesh. Khopesh is d8 19-20/x3. Rapiers and scimitars are d6 18-20/x2. The difference is significant. Without keen and assuming every attack hits khopesh averages 4.5*24=108 while rapier/scimitar averages 3.5*23=80.5. That is a loss of >27 points of damage thru 20 attacks.

    With keen the numbers are 4.5*28=128 v 3.5*26=91, a difference of 17 points of damage. When you figure in burst and other type damages the distance between the two grows. It never shrinks.
    Don't be so confrontational its stupid.

    How many Heroic mobs take 100 swings to kill, or are you just that bad at building? Also you always miss on a one so your numbers are loaded.
    Per Swing a khopesh is 1.35x (where x is your damage mod) and a Scimitar is 1.25x this means that at best a khopesh is 10% better then Scimitar assuming you only miss on a 1. After 18 this is knotisable and important before that it doesn't matter.

    Explanation on math since you need it.
    Scimitar
    0.65(x) chance to hit that's not a crit + 0.3(2(x+s)) chance to crit times crit multiplier 2 = 1.25 Avg Dmg

    Khopesh
    0.75(x+1) chance to hit that's not a crit plus 1 (4.5 vs 3.5 average damage from d8 vs d6) + 0.20(3(x+1+s)) = 1.35x + 1.35

    Real Example
    18 Base
    04 Level Up
    06 Item
    01 Ex Item
    03 Enh
    32 Stat Base (11 Mod)

    STR Buffs
    02 Rams
    02 Rage
    36 Str Stat (13 Mod)

    08 FE
    02 Competence
    04 Enh
    05 Power Attack
    19 Total

    Lit II Scimitar Dex Based
    1.5(3.5) 15-20 x2 2d6 Holy 1d6 Shock 2d10 Shocking Burst + Shocking Blast 4d6 Shocking Blast 6 seeker
    5.25 + 30 = 35.25
    0.65(35.25) + 0.6(41.25) + 0.95(10.5) + 0.3(11) + 0.05(14) =
    22.9125 + 24.75 + 9.975 + 3.3 + 0.7 = 61.6375 ~ 62 Avg per swing

    12 Swings to kill a 700 HP mob


    Lit II Khopesh STR Based
    1.5(4.5) 17-20 x3 2d6 Holy 1d6 Shock 4d10 Shocking Burst + Shocking Blast 4d6 Shocking Blast 6 seeker
    6.75 + 32 = 38.75
    0.75(38.75) + 0.6(44.75) + 0.95(10.5) + 0.2(22) + 0.05(14)
    29.0625 + 26.85 + 9.975 + 4.4 + 0.7 = 70.9875 ~ 71 Avg per Swing

    10 Swings to kill a 700 HP mob

    9 points per swing more for the STR Khopesh user then the Dex Khopesh user not exactly insignificant but reasonable and he has +4 Reflex over the STR build. Another way to look at that is its about 1 second difference. Str is Optimal Dex is viable and not bad in Heroic.

  14. #14
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Your information is misleading.

    First, rogue gives DEX to hit as an enhancement but that applies to dagger and kukri ONLY. It never applies to scimitar. And, it only applies to rapier if you have at least 3 rogue levels AND the weapon finesse feat. There is NO enhancement for rangers to achieve the same thing.

    This means that the rogue 2/ranger 18 build can NEVER use DEX to hit and to damage unless the player acquires one of the already existing DEX based weapons.

    So, the argument that rapier/scimitar is close to khopesh damage is a red herring because scimitar isn't an option and rapier isn't either (at least not for the recommended build).

    The recommended build was rogue 2/ranger 18. This in and of itself is not a good recommendation because rogue 1 gets all of the essential skills, rogue 2 brings nothing to the build and rogue 3 is needed for DEX to damage on finesse weapons (and requires the weapon finesse feat). It reduces the numbers in your calculations by 2 for FE but note that even that only applies from L16 onward. In fact, the whole Lit II example depends on having Lit II -- something that should not be assumed (and meaning that it was picked because it gives the most favorable outcome to the rapier/scimitar).

    Now, if your purpose is to argue that rapier/scimitar can be near equal to khopesh that is fine. But, if we are doing that then we need to move beyond Shroud weapons.

    But, the conversation is about DEX v STR. So misleading readers with weapon examples and level assumptions that are unrealistic is unfair.

    The alternative build suggestion (which I said has too many goodies but bears investigating) is paladin 4/rogue 4/ranger 12. What this does is add in Divine Might (a STR boost in the new system) and sneak attack dice. Neither of these are in your calculation -- showing that you are not really comparing the builds under discussion but just making an argument for the sake of arguing.

    tl;dnr: Your information is misleading. DEX can never apply to Lit II scimitars, it can only apply to Lit II rapiers if the player has 3 rogue levels. Without maximum ranger levels the FE bonus damage is inaccurate. If you insist on doing math to prove a point you must use accurate numbers and stay within the parameters of the problem. Doing otherwise is just picking a fight in order to fight.

  15. #15
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    You don't understand the different between viable and optimal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    How many Heroic mobs take 100 swings to kill, or are you just that bad at building?
    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    Also you always miss on a one so your numbers are loaded.
    Fair warning Grailhawk, I did not start with the insults. If you cannot take them in return then don't start with them. The pattern of confrontation began with you.

    What you are arguing is factually incorrect. It is incorrect not only because it can never exist -- there is no way in the game today (or Monday for that matter) to channel DEX to hit and damage on a scimitar -- but because if you ride it to its logical conclusion the numbers do not support your conclusions.

    If we change scimitar to rapier we must invest in 3 rogue levels and the weapon finesse feat. In terms of feats this puts the DEX build on par with the khopesh build that is investing in an exotic weapon feat. But, it costs the build otherwise.

    First it is a net loss of 2 damage v favored enemy. This is because the DEX build must argue from the position of ranger 17 while the STR build can argue from the position of ranger 20. If we argue the STR build from the position of ranger 20 then we are not compelled to argue the STR build from a base of 16. Pushing STR to 18 gives a minimum of 1 point advantage and in most cases a 2 point advantage. It could even be a 3 point advantage in some situations.

    But, even if we ignore those things and go 17 ranger/3 rogue rapier DEX build v 12 ranger/4 rogue/4 paladin (which is a "let's investigate") the DEX build has trouble keeping up. Paladin give Divine Might and even with a base 8 CHA by L20 CHA can reasonably be expected to reach 22 for +6 STR. This opens a 3 point gap between STR and DEX at the cost of 2 points v FE, a net +1. The differences in rogue levels is another 3.5 increase in damage for a net 4.5 increase.

    The 3 rogue levels open +3 DEX but the 4 rogue levels on the alternative opens 2 STR. No net benefit to either build.

    What this all means is that you are at least 4.5 points too low in calculating the khopesh damage at each step of the process making the gap between the STR build and the DEX build larger than you represent it to be.

    Bottom line is STR > DEX and it isn't really close.

  16. #16
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    Explanation on math since you need it.
    WARNING, LONG

    Re-explanation of math using the builds from this thread because it is needed.

    DEX calculation for Ranger 17/Rogue 3 (note that this is the only way to get DEX to damage on rapier and that DEX never applies to damage on scimitar*):

    18 base
    04 tome
    05 stat increases
    06 enhancements
    06 stat item
    01 exceptional stat item
    02 insight stat item
    02 ship buff (lesser dexterity shrine)
    --
    44 -> +17 damage

    Damage calculation for Ranger 17/Rogue 3:

    17 DEX damage
    05 weapon bonus
    06 Favored Enemy
    05 Power Attack
    02 ship buff (Darguun Hobgoblin)
    --
    35 added damage

    Revised calculation substituting rapier for scimitar, using Lit II as in previous example, adding 3d6 sneak attack damage from rogue 3, retaining seeker 6:

    0.65(40.25) + 0.3(2(46.25)) + 0.95(21) + 0.3(11) + 0.05(14) = 77.8625 or ~78

    STR calculation for Ranger 12/Rogue 4/Paladin 4:

    16 base
    05 stat increases
    04 tome
    05 enhancements
    06 Divine Might (8 base + 4 tome + 6 item + 1 exception + 2 insight + 1 enhancement)
    06 stat item
    01 exceptional stat item
    02 insight stat item
    02 ship buff (lesser strength shrine)
    02 Ram's Might
    02 Rage
    --
    51 -> +20 damage

    Damage calculation for Ranger 12/Rogue 4/Paladin 4:

    20 STR damage
    05 weapon bonus
    04 Favored Enemy
    05 Power Attack
    02 ship buff (Darguun Hobgoblin)
    --
    36 added damage

    Revised calculation for khopesh, using Lit II as in previous example, adding 4d6 sneak attack damage from rogue 4, retaining seeker 6:

    0.75(42.75) + 0.2(3(48.75)) + 0.95(24.5) + 0.2(22) + 0.05(14) = 89.6875 or ~90.

    But, this isn't the whole story because the paladin levels also give Exalted Smite for +2 critical threat range, +2 damage multiplier and +4 damage boost. This makes the khopesh

    .65(46.75) + 0.2(5(52.75) + 0.95(24.5) + 0.3(44) + 0.05(14) = 120.3125 or ~120.

    This means the DEX build is ~35% less efficient than the STR build.

    *Final notes:

    • There is a ranger enhancement that allows DEX to damage on light weapons. Neither rapier nor scimitar is a light weapon. This is to clear up any confusion on any reader's part about the ability to use DEX for damage with either rapiers or scimitars.
    • I noticed as I got to the end of this that I'd forgotten to add 2 damage from Ram's Might. This applies to either DEX or STR builds but is easily forgotten in DEX builds where there isn't any other reason to boost STR, meaning that some other spell might be carried instead. The difference in the calculations will be minimal and the bottom line will remain the same -- DEX is wrong for the build being discussed in this thread.
    • I used +4 tomes because they are available from Turbine and using +5 tomes will not alter the DEX number. Using +5 tomes on the STR build will increase STR by 1 and CHA by 2 which will have an impact on the STR calculation.
    • Players could choose to push DEX and STR higher by choosing the race carefully. I've assumed human. The counter to halfling/elf/drow/half-elf for DEX is half-orc for STR. It will make the DEX number marginally closer to the STR number but still doesn't change the bottom line.
    Last edited by Therigar; 08-15-2013 at 11:56 PM.

  17. #17
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Lv3 Tempest Core enh: Tempest makes Scimitar a light weapon and lets you use Dex for To hit with Light weapons
    Lv6 Tempest core enh: Grace gives damage you Dex to damage with light weapons which Scimitars are do to Tempest.

    Tier 2 Deepwood sniper enh: Improved Weapon Finesse Gives Dex to damage with any weapon that weapon finesse effects. aka Rapiers Pure 20 Ranger can use Dex for hit an damage

    I have tested all of those in various combinations. I know the work and how they work perfectly. You don't even know they exist apparently.

    My initial math is correct and does not favor either Khopesh or Scimitar its just numbers. Its clear you cant admit you're wrong and that Dex is not a bad primary stat on Ranger even if it is not the best or optimal choice.

    I'm done here have a nice day.

  18. #18
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    You don't even know they exist apparently.
    I did not know that the core enhancements were there. Good catch. I was only looking at the question from the perspective of the suggested builds and did not look deeper into the ranger core enhancements.

    Since they are let's see what effect that has.

    DEX calculation for Ranger 20:

    18 base
    04 tome
    05 stat increases
    06 enhancements
    06 stat item
    01 exceptional stat item
    02 insight stat item
    02 ship buff (lesser dexterity shrine)
    --
    44 -> +17 damage

    Damage calculation for Ranger 20:

    17 DEX damage
    05 weapon bonus
    10 Favored Enemy
    05 Power Attack
    02 Ram's Might
    02 ship buff (Darguun Hobgoblin)
    --
    41 added damage

    Revised calculation substituting rapier for scimitar, using Lit II as in previous example, retaining seeker 6:

    0.65(46.25) + 0.3(2(52.25)) + 0.95(10.5) + 0.3(11) + 0.05(14) = 75.3875 or ~75.

    STR calculation for Ranger 12/Rogue 4/Paladin 4:

    16 base
    05 stat increases
    04 tome
    05 enhancements
    06 Divine Might (8 base + 4 tome + 6 item + 1 exception + 2 insight + 1 enhancement)
    06 stat item
    01 exceptional stat item
    02 insight stat item
    02 ship buff (lesser strength shrine)
    02 Ram's Might
    02 Rage
    --
    51 -> +20 damage

    Damage calculation for Ranger 12/Rogue 4/Paladin 4:

    20 STR damage
    05 weapon bonus
    06 Favored Enemy
    05 Power Attack
    02 Ram's Might
    04 Exalted Smite
    02 ship buff (Darguun Hobgoblin)
    --
    44 added damage

    Revised calculation for khopesh, using Lit II as in previous example, adding 4d6 sneak attack damage from rogue 4, Divine Might, retaining seeker 6:

    .65(50.75) + 0.2(5(56.75) + 0.95(24.5) + 0.3(44) + 0.05(14) = 124.4625 or ~124.

    This means the pure ranger DEX build is ~37% less efficient than the STR build.

    So, the fully investigated and tested DEX build is even more inferior than the suggested 17/3 ranger/rogue at ~75 v ~90 damage per attack. And, it is even worse against the suggested 12/4/4 ranger/rogue/paladin at ~37% v ~35% less efficient.

    I am glad to have been wrong about scimitar. It only makes me MORE correct about DEX being the wrong choice for this build.


    Note that I'm not even trying to maximize the efficiencies in the 12/4/4 build. My suggestion of 16/14/16/14 presumes qualifying feats in DEX and INT without regard to when those feats are taken or how use of tomes could change the base numbers.

    Dropping INT and DEX to 11 at character creation can raise STR to 18 for another 1 point of base damage. But better would be to raise CHA to 14 for a +3 STR boost with Divine Might. Now a +5 tome with STR yields a +4 STR increase for +2 damage. Due to criticals this is ~3 points additional damage per attack raising damage to ~130 per attack on the STR build.

    No matter how we look at it, the STR build is better.

    Lastly, let's look at the claims concerning Reflex saves.

    At 44 DEX the pure ranger is +17 to reflex save. Ranger reflex save at L20 is 12. This means that total reflex save before other factors is 29.

    Working from 14 base rather than 18 and eliminating stat increases, enhancements and replacing the +4 tome with a +3 tome, the 12/4/4 build has an adjusted 32 DEX for +11. The 12/4/4 has a reflex save of 14 due to the influences of the other character classes. This makes the total reflex save 25 before other factors. Paladin levels allow CHA bonuses to all saves. At 22 CHA this is +6 bringing the 12/4/4 build to 31 before other factors.

    Thus, even the argument that DEX provides better reflex saves is false.

    I don't mind admitting that I was wrong about scimitars. But, any unbiased reader will have to acknowledge that Grailhawk is wrong about DEX v STR. There simply is no way that a DEX based build is better for what OP wants than a STR build.

    Edit: Note that the damage modifiers differ slightly from my previous calculations because I incorrectly figured FE and neglected to add Ram's Might. I've made those corrections in these calculations.
    Last edited by Therigar; 08-16-2013 at 08:51 AM.

  19. #19
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    Its clear you cant admit you're wrong and that Dex is not a bad primary stat on Ranger even if it is not the best or optimal choice.
    Actually, quite the opposite. Anyone who has spent enough time on the forums to know me will know that I freely admit when I am wrong. In fact, I have no issue with being wrong.

    And, DEX is a horrible stat for a ranger as the context of this whole thread shows clearly.

    The thread is about a ranger build for the sole purpose of acquiring a past life feat. Pure class ranger is no where near the best build for that purpose. Ranger/rogue is better. Ranger 17/rogue 3 is better still. Ranger 12/rogue 4/paladin 4 with a STR emphasis is leaps and bounds ahead of either of those.

    FWIW, I appreciate how you have hedged the DEX suggestion to be neither the best nor optimal. But, we both know that it is because DEX as the primary score is a big mistake on a ranger.

  20. #20
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Build for 18 on a Past Life. 20 is silly and can make for very unpleasant 18 -> 20.

    I'd probably go pure Ranger for simplicity's sake and to get to 11 for IPS and GTWF asap, and from there to get to 15 ASAP to memorize both CSW and FoM at once is nice.

    I suppose you can splash from there to 18 for 3 levels of fun. Maybe Monk? Ranger 17 seems silly since HiPS appears to blow. You have to stealth in the same place for it to matter, so no thanks.

    Also I'd go with Dex not Str these days on a levelling build with evasion. I'd also go pure Elf and get Grace for bow damage. Though obviously I'd pickup power attack too despite the 13 STR req. If you're after a past life, assumedly you're willing to burn str tomes, so assuming a +2 that's 11 starter Strength and get it at level 12 (level 9 = IC:Slashing or Piercing), or +3 that's 10 starter Strength and get it also at level 12.

    AC in heroics is more useful than epics, also reflex saves with ranger evasion are nice too - in heroics every point counts. Hitting 40 for Crucible swim and Enter the Kobold fire eles no-fail except on a 1 is non-trivial even with the +10 reflex robe.
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
    All of my builds are grossly out of date. Just roll a human or drow mechanic / assassin rogue thing.
    Blind insta-kills floating eye balls.

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