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  1. #21
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    So I'm done on the Dex vs Str debate I said my peace, my opinion has always been that sub level 18 Str vs Dex is a non issues after that it changes a lot. People can see my math and you're and make up there own minds.

    On the 12/4/4 vs 17/3 I don't think either is the best ranger build would much rather have 15/5, 15/4/1, or 18/1/1. the builds that stop before 15 don't get FOM or CSW (on a human with gear and devotion you can get this over 200 even sub 20) I don't see the point at all in Ranger 17 if your going that far you should go to 18 pick up what ever there calling Tempest 3 these days or just pass on multi classing and go to 20 which seems to have a worth wild capstone (Reports are this my not work how it says it does and I'm not sure till i get time to test. its reported that its double strike double strike not off hand double strike).

    Some people will like your 12/4/4 I don't
    1. I want to dump Char and DM doesn't stack with Insightful items.
    2. I want CSW and FOM.
    Last edited by Grailhawk; 08-16-2013 at 09:51 AM.

  2. #22
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    Build for 18 on a Past Life. 20 is silly and can make for very unpleasant 18 -> 20.

    I'd probably go pure Ranger for simplicity's sake and to get to 11 for IPS and GTWF asap, and from there to get to 15 ASAP to memorize both CSW and FoM at once is nice.

    I suppose you can splash from there to 18 for 3 levels of fun. Maybe Monk? Ranger 17 seems silly since HiPS appears to blow. You have to stealth in the same place for it to matter, so no thanks.

    Also I'd go with Dex not Str these days on a levelling build with evasion. I'd also go pure Elf and get Grace for bow damage. Though obviously I'd pickup power attack too despite the 13 STR req. If you're after a past life, assumedly you're willing to burn str tomes, so assuming a +2 that's 11 starter Strength and get it at level 12 (level 9 = IC:Slashing or Piercing), or +3 that's 10 starter Strength and get it also at level 12.

    AC in heroics is more useful than epics, also reflex saves with ranger evasion are nice too - in heroics every point counts. Hitting 40 for Crucible swim and Enter the Kobold fire eles no-fail except on a 1 is non-trivial even with the +10 reflex robe.
    I tend to like 1 Rogue 1-11 Ranger 1 Monk/Fighter rest Ranger as my leveling order, don't think there's reason to change it but maybe.

    I would rather be Human or Half Elf with 16/16 Base STR/DEX.

  3. #23
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I did not know that the core enhancements were there. Good catch. I was only looking at the question from the perspective of the suggested builds and did not look deeper into the ranger core enhancements.
    Not arguing any str vs dex stuff but I did want to point out that any elf of any class can get their chosen set a weapons as dex based at t4 of the elf racial tree. Scimitars is in one of those weapon sets.
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  4. #24
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    I tend to like 1 Rogue 1-11 Ranger 1 Monk/Fighter rest Ranger as my leveling order, don't think there's reason to change it but maybe.

    I would rather be Human or Half Elf with 16/16 Base STR/DEX.
    Fair call. I imagine there are many different ways to make a Ranger PL, and trapping is fun and useful. Bonus feat from fighter or monk is also great. Honestly I wasn't going to comment at all on the thread, but thought the dex bashing was so silly I had to.

    When I ran through my ranger lives I would have loved to have been able to make a dex-based past-life build for the huge reflex bonus.
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  5. #25
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    Build for 18 on a Past Life.
    A fair point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    I want to dump Char and DM doesn't stack with Insightful items.
    Missed in the calculations but scarcely an impact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    I want CSW and FOM.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    I'm done on the Dex vs Str debate I said my peace, my opinion has always been that sub level 18 Str vs Dex is a non issues after that it changes a lot.
    But your opinion is clearly demonstrated to be based on no facts whatsoever and sticking with it doesn't improve your case for there being a non-issue.

    In fact, there is a huge issue when main-hand attacks are >30% less damage per hit.

    Even if I modify the suggested build to ranger 16/paladin 4 (to gain FOM and CSW) it still crushes the DEX build in damage. And, the build suggestion already dumps CHA and only assumes tomes and items that are fairly typical for characters anyway.

    The real deciding point might be Deathdefy's comment on L18 v L20. At L18 the choice is give up DM because of reduced paladin levels or give up FoM/CSW because of reduced ranger levels. That choice might well be decided based on play style and whether FoM is available from some other source.

    If the decision is to give up paladin levels then we can force the choice between DEX and STR to be much closer. I'd be inclined to argue that FoM is readily available so not valuable enough to warrant dropping paladin levels. It is after all available on a L9 item.

    So the real choice becomes 14/4 if sticking to L18 builds v 18/0 or 17/1 or even 16/2 (assuming a rogue, rogue/fighter, rogue/monk or fighter/monk splash).

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    AC in heroics is more useful than epics, also reflex saves with ranger evasion are nice too - in heroics every point counts.
    As has been demonstrated reflex saves are higher on the splash build. As has been already pointed out in the thread, light armor has a DEX cap to AC. DEX beyond that cap is unneeded.

    Something along the lines of Rakshasa Hide is likely optimal for L18 builds. This gives a max DEX bonus of 13. DEX beyond 36 is therefore unnecessary.

    By restricting builds to 18 levels final stat increases and some enhancement increases won't be available. In fact, the 44 DEX I discussed earlier might be very optimistic if ap are being spent to acquire DEX enhancements to hit/damage that Grailhawk discussed earlier.

    The AC difference between 36 DEX and the achievable 32 DEX on the 12/4/4 (or 14/4 if we go with this post's discussions) is 2 AC. I've already referred readers to the Turbine calculations showing that this is a very tiny improvement in protection.

    In other words, you may be correct that these things are important but the DEX approach doesn't yield higher reflex saves and gives only an extremely marginal improvement in AC all at the cost of a very substantial decrease in damage.

    Bottom line remains, even with these observations taken into account, that DEX is a bad choice for this build.

  6. #26
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Double post.
    Last edited by Therigar; 08-16-2013 at 10:56 AM.

  7. #27
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Something along the lines of Rakshasa Hide is likely optimal for L18 builds. This gives a max DEX bonus of 13. DEX beyond 36 is therefore unnecessary.
    Eww light armour. Chaosrobe + 10 reflex version!
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  8. #28
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post

    As has been demonstrated reflex saves are higher on the splash build. As has been already pointed out in the thread, light armor has a DEX cap to AC. DEX beyond that cap is unneeded.

    Something along the lines of Rakshasa Hide is likely optimal for L18 builds. This gives a max DEX bonus of 13. DEX beyond 36 is therefore unnecessary.
    Racial choices can modify max dex bonus. Were those calculated into your equations? Also what about the benefit of evasion? (I think strength based is better but figure you should address all aspects)
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  9. #29
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    If the decision is to give up paladin levels then we can force the choice between DEX and STR to be much closer. I'd be inclined to argue that FoM is readily available so not valuable enough to warrant dropping paladin levels. It is after all available on a L9 item.

    So the real choice becomes 14/4 if sticking to L18 builds v 18/0 or 17/1 or even 16/2 (assuming a rogue, rogue/fighter, rogue/monk or fighter/monk splash).
    It looks like you conceded that Dex vs Str is close enough at 18 if you don't have DM?

    I'll take the 16/1/1 over a 14/4 any day of the week the Exploiter is a tried and tested build its been in business longer then I've been playing the game and it will continue to survive (I admit my bias to that build right now I've hand at least 2 in my stable for a very long time). 14/4 Is now an option I don't think its a bad option (I don't think its the be all end all of Ranger options but we will see, maybe.) and it is clearly a STR build, but there are other builds that that are mostly Ranger that can use Dex as a primary stat until they start looking at epic levels.

    So unless you think every Ranger build ever made by anyone has to have 4 Paladin levels I think we are now on the same page?

  10. #30
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    Eww light armour. Chaosrobe + 10 reflex version!
    A good choice assuming that a player has it. Since we're talking just build to reincarnate that might not be the case. Still, a good choice.

    Rough calculations show that the net benefit is ~ +3 AC from using the robe in favor of the DEX character. This can be immediately made up for with paladin aura enhancements.

  11. #31
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    It looks like you conceded that Dex vs Str is close enough at 18 if you don't have DM?
    But is stupid. Why give up DM when you don't have to? To continue to run exploiter? Now which of us is stuck in the past (as you accused me of)?

    The impact of the enhancement pass is that old builds will be surpassed by new ones. Exploiter will not be better than many of those that will emerge.

    It has been trivial to show that 12/4/4 blows everything you've suggested out of the water when it comes to damage, has better reflex saves AND has equal or better AC. (The one post suggesting a 2 AC advantage to DEX also avoids discussing aura enhancements for +3 AC, which would put the STR build ahead in AC as well.)

    What does 12/4/4 give up? FoM, CSW? FoM isn't needed in many cases, is available on a L9 item when it is, and is generally available from some other character if really necessary as a buff. CSW is better than CMW but 4 paladin opens additional healing amp making the difference marginal at best.

    You've accused me of being unable to admit to being wrong. We have seen that isn't the case. But, it does clearly apply to you since you are doing everything to hold onto your illusion that DEX based is somehow a valid choice.

  12. #32
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    But is stupid. Why give up DM when you don't have to? To continue to run exploiter? Now which of us is stuck in the past (as you accused me of)?

    The impact of the enhancement pass is that old builds will be surpassed by new ones. Exploiter will not be better than many of those that will emerge.

    It has been trivial to show that 12/4/4 blows everything you've suggested out of the water when it comes to damage, has better reflex saves AND has equal or better AC. (The one post suggesting a 2 AC advantage to DEX also avoids discussing aura enhancements for +3 AC, which would put the STR build ahead in AC as well.)

    What does 12/4/4 give up? FoM, CSW? FoM isn't needed in many cases, is available on a L9 item when it is, and is generally available from some other character if really necessary as a buff. CSW is better than CMW but 4 paladin opens additional healing amp making the difference marginal at best.

    You've accused me of being unable to admit to being wrong. We have seen that isn't the case. But, it does clearly apply to you since you are doing everything to hold onto your illusion that DEX based is somehow a valid choice.
    CMW is not good enough. And I don't think Knight of the Chalice has enough good in it to justify 22 points spent to get 10% healing Amp last I look it was T4.

    Did you not read where i said "I don't think its the be all end all of Ranger options but we will see, maybe." its just going to take more then you for me to come around on it.

  13. #33
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    So unless you think every Ranger build ever made by anyone has to have 4 Paladin levels I think we are now on the same page?
    No, I don't think that every build ever made needs 4 paladin levels. I just think that exploiter is no longer the best choice because I'm not living in the past but instead am looking at the future. It could well be that future ranger builds do rely on 4 paladin levels. OTOH, cleric splash for turn undead might make paladin levels just 1.

    And, the future arrives Monday.

    The number 1 appeal of exploiter is the 1 rogue level. It is compulsory. The 1 something else level can be fighter, artificer, monk, anything -- even another ranger level. But, the compulsory is 1 rogue.

    I've easily shown a huge damage advantage to 12/4/4 over every build you've proposed. That advantage doesn't really exist in the current system which is why such a class split isn't being played currently.

    But, the advantage will exist starting on Monday. The exploiter is a dead build. You might as well get use to that idea.

    The only issue with alternatives, including the one I've thrown out as worth investigating, is gaining the most synergy out of the enhancements and finding the right racial choice.

    But, we are most definitely NOT on the same page whatsoever.

    To the contrary, DEX as a primary stat is almost certainly only going to come into its own for epic characters and, even there, is likely to be inferior to STR depending on ED. Players running in Fury will almost certainly still benefit more from STR than DEX -- in fact, it is hard to imagine a situation where they would not.

    This means that, unless players are running very specialized flavor builds (like rogue assassins) where something other than STR is already getting the emphasis (like INT for assassins) then the benefit of DEX over STR probably never exists. Ranger builds are not in this category of very specialized flavor builds.

    And, FWIW, I've argued elsewhere in the forums that DEX is not always a bad choice. If players intentionally limit themselves -- as you do by insisting on sticking with an old build concept -- then DEX might become an acceptable choice.

    But, when exploiter's damage can be blown out of the water by a STR focus instead of a DEX focus there's no sense in permitting people to argue for DEX. BTW, exploiter is a STR build so recognized that STR was the better choice from the outset.

  14. #34
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    CSW (Max + Quicken) and CMW (Max + Quicken) on the same hotbar is adequate self-healing whereas just CMW is not, even if you have +10% HAMP.

    Add actually useful near-no-fail reflex saves and you're cooking.

    I'm done with PLs on my main (and anything else; blerg), but by the end one of the only things I found that considerably enhanced both my enjoyment of heroic levels (and their speed via avoiding deaths more times than I could count on my hands) was Evasion and a High Reflex Save.

    By "High" I mean 40. Literally exactly 40, which is really hard to do. By the end, I nearly always splashed monk to get water stance (+2 saves) as well as the single level giving (+2/+2/+2) from level 1 Monk. I also took Lightning Reflexes for another +2 (often as said Monk's bonus feat) an embarrassing amount.

    What's the point of this story? I like stories.

    And also, Reflex save is really, really important and if you can get it via your primary stat without being super-gimp, do it! So high up on things I consider important about a past-life that it's only beaten by "do I have monk or barbarian faster speed or at least ranger sprint boost?" and "can I self-heal?"

    To me, the issue with non-dex and big (4 = big in the world of past-life builds) strange splashes is that you're gimping:
    -Self-Healing
    and
    -Reflex Save

    That's just insane to me when they're so readily available.

    Marginal increases in kill speed and/or AC are light years away from the ballpark of super-important-things on a TR that self-healing and reflex save with evasion are in.

    Oh, and get a Chaosrobe. It's crazy not to. The robe itself is BtA on acquire, so farm Fear Factory. The upgrade ingredients are unbound. Transfer to character via the account bank and voila. If you lack an account bank, then farm Fear Factory as soon as you are able after CL 14 (since you can only wear it then anyway).

    I'm out, since I feel this post was already almost repetitious, but since it was more explicit it might be helpful.

    EDIT: On damage, since this is a hang-up. Outside of IQ, vorpals. Get some vorpals. Or banishers, or disruptors. Not to say you'll need them since Dex-to-Damage with Power Attack isn't actually gimp despite this thread's aspersions, but insta-kill weapons are more efficient all around anyway.
    Last edited by Deathdefy; 08-16-2013 at 11:55 AM.
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  15. #35
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    I don't think Knight of the Chalice has enough good in it to justify 22 points spent to get 10% healing Amp last I look it was T4.
    I believe that this is correct, meaning L4 paladin and 20 points spent just to access.

    The thing here is that we are, at this point, just throwing about point/counter-point. If you want to pick on healing as a reason to take obviously inferior damage then I'm going to point out that 12/4/4 has options to increase healing. It is a bit of ridiculousness on both of our part. It isn't whether it is a good or smart thing to do, it is just proving that it can be done.

    You are probably right, it isn't enough to justify the ap to get the healing amp. OTOH, CSW isn't enough to justify giving up >35% of your damage per hit.

    The real discussion should focus on this simple mechanic -- the less time spent in combat the less demand for either AC or healing. If you want to give up ~50 points of damage per hit in order to hold onto maybe 3 more AC and maybe 50 more points of healing then go right ahead.

    Personally, since I'm looking at squeezing every last bit of DEX out of the character in order to do the comparisons, I think that the delta in damage is actually higher and the AC difference lower. We already know that there's no advantage in reflex save.

  16. #36
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    It isn't just the STR difference, it is the damage difference due to weapon choices. DEX has always been viable but suboptimal. Now it is less suboptimal. But, it is still the suboptimal choice.

    To excuse that by saying DEX is viable is irresponsible. To suggest DEX instead of STR when there is no advantage to DEX at all is close to criminal.

    I'm supportive of DEX builds -- I often suggest them as an alternative. But, just because they are viable that does not mean they are the best choice -- or even a good choice.

    DEX builds should only be used when there is a clear advantage. Examples are monks where the synergy of DEX and WIS yields AC in the 120+ range or rogues where the DEX contributes to other essential aspects of the build (sneak for assassination).

    There is no clear advantage to DEX on a ranger build. Added DEX is not needed to hit if a player decides to go AA. Since there is no intent to play at epic levels there is no need to qualify epic feats. To the contrary, AA gain more damage by being STR based without affecting the chances to hit on heroic content. And melee gains both to hit and to damage as well as working from higher damage output weapons.

    DEX is as bad as I am making it out to be for this build. Not understanding that is just willful ignorance and has no basis in fact.
    A little extra damage isn't needed in the heroic levels.

    A high Reflex save with evasion is VERY useful in the heroic levels.

    Going Dex-based does offer some advantages...

    And learn to state your (certainly valid) position without putting down anyone who disagrees with you as a moron. You do that in real life too?

    Friend: "Hey I think we should go to this movie".

    You: "That movie is not good as this other movie, and if you don't understand that, you're just being willfully ignorant"

    Friend: "Ummm... okay"

    Friend (whispering to Friend2): We need to stop inviting Therigar to these things.
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  17. #37
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    The real arguments for Str over Dex are tactics
    Agreed.. The only thing keeping from going Dex-based is tactics. Stunning blow offers a ridiculous amount of DPS.
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  18. #38
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    No, I don't think that every build ever made needs 4 paladin levels. I just think that exploiter is no longer the best choice because I'm not living in the past but instead am looking at the future. It could well be that future ranger builds do rely on 4 paladin levels. OTOH, cleric splash for turn undead might make paladin levels just 1.

    And, the future arrives Monday.

    The number 1 appeal of exploiter is the 1 rogue level. It is compulsory. The 1 something else level can be fighter, artificer, monk, anything -- even another ranger level. But, the compulsory is 1 rogue.

    I've easily shown a huge damage advantage to 12/4/4 over every build you've proposed. That advantage doesn't really exist in the current system which is why such a class split isn't being played currently.

    But, the advantage will exist starting on Monday. The exploiter is a dead build. You might as well get use to that idea.

    The only issue with alternatives, including the one I've thrown out as worth investigating, is gaining the most synergy out of the enhancements and finding the right racial choice.

    But, we are most definitely NOT on the same page whatsoever.

    To the contrary, DEX as a primary stat is almost certainly only going to come into its own for epic characters and, even there, is likely to be inferior to STR depending on ED. Players running in Fury will almost certainly still benefit more from STR than DEX -- in fact, it is hard to imagine a situation where they would not.

    This means that, unless players are running very specialized flavor builds (like rogue assassins) where something other than STR is already getting the emphasis (like INT for assassins) then the benefit of DEX over STR probably never exists. Ranger builds are not in this category of very specialized flavor builds.

    And, FWIW, I've argued elsewhere in the forums that DEX is not always a bad choice. If players intentionally limit themselves -- as you do by insisting on sticking with an old build concept -- then DEX might become an acceptable choice.

    But, when exploiter's damage can be blown out of the water by a STR focus instead of a DEX focus there's no sense in permitting people to argue for DEX. BTW, exploiter is a STR build so recognized that STR was the better choice from the outset.
    I have never said a Ranger over 18 should be Dex based. I've said that a number of time over and over. It's clear your not paying attention and hell bent on proving that you one Ranger with 4 Paladin splash is the only ranger any one should play that's a very short sighted argument.

    I haven't argued a single build this whole time. My points are that
    1. Sub 18 Dex is viable as a primary stat on a Ranger.
    2. That 15 ranger is the sweat spot do to CSW and FOM
    3. That you don't get the difference between Viable and Optimal this is also the comment that set you off I believe unfortunately its true you're stuck on the 4 Paladin being better then every thing else (it might actually be, but I wouldn't do it in you split 15/4/1 STR based Ranger/Paladin/Rogue is a better build then you're 12/4/4 CSW alone makes it better in the area of BYOH)
    4. Exploiter is still a viable build though it may not be optimal.
    Last edited by Grailhawk; 08-16-2013 at 12:37 PM. Reason: Spelling Grammar

  19. #39
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Also, something to keep in mind about the 12/4/4 build is that you are comparing those builds at level 20... which the OP will be at for about 5 minutes.

    So compare them at levels 11-18... with limited APs... Some builds that are better at the end are not necessarily better while leveling.
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  20. #40
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Agreed.. The only thing keeping from going Dex-based is tactics. Stunning blow offers a ridiculous amount of DPS.
    Tactics favor his 4 Paladin Splash because of DM now adding to STR. The issue with 4 Paladin is its going to be hard to get a good Charisma (its doable though)

    30 CON (More the better this is min to see HP over 700 at 25)
    30 DEX (Ranged to Hit is still Dex so you cant Dump it like a Pld)
    30+ CHA
    14 WIS (enough to Cast)
    12 INT (base+tomes for skill points you want UMD, Trap Skills, Jump, and Balance skills, thank god this is a ranger and not a Fighter)
    And Max STR

    You'll be more MAD then a PLD.

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