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  1. #1
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    Exclamation Unlink Prestige Enhancements from Character Class(es)

    At this stage the only hope for salvaging the wasted effort is to allow any character to select whatever tree(s) they want in addition to their racial tree.

  2. #2
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    At this stage the only hope for salvaging the wasted effort is to allow any character to select whatever tree(s) they want in addition to their racial tree.
    lol! Thanks for the laugh for today. I needed that!

  3. #3
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Yes...everybody roll a fighter to have all the feats you could ever want that goes with any class...

    Seriously? Freeform characters and DDO do NOT go together at all.

  4. #4
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I'm trying to follow the logic and understand how the Wizard Tree will help a Barbarian, or how the Paladin Tree will help out a Bard or Druid.

    It would be nice to have more racial PrE availability and even some races like Human and Half-Elf having multiple possibilities (keeping more with lore) But opening everything to everyone regardless of class/race just seems like quitting to me

  5. #5
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    i still would rather they do this instead...
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ould-have-been
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  6. #6
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Prestige class implies a preexisting character class serving as a prerequisite. Enhancements imply a preexisting skill set related to that same prerequisite character class.

    Consequently, removing the link between enhancements and character class is thematically inconsistent. Any reading of the suggestion that results in a discussion on removing the link between enhancements and character class is not only a misreading of the subject but also to be opposed as antithetical to the game.

    Similarly, the proposal itself, which is to remove the link between prestige class and character class, must also be opposed on the same basis. The entire foundation of the character class system rests on characters being the culmination of their experiences. This is represented within the game by the deliberately restrictive links that associate specific prestige classes with prerequisite character classes.

    In the case of racially associated prestige classes there is a story-line connection relating the character race to a prevailing cultural condition that honors and encourages the development of skills that, sometimes, fall outside of the character's chosen class. To permit free association on a racial basis to prestige classes means bypassing the character class prerequisite. It also means bypassing the cultural condition that gives rise to racial affinities for specific prestige classes.

    Both break the underlying foundation upon which the fantasy game world of DDO is built.

    Thus, the idea presented by the OP must be opposed. The right approach is to remain consistent with a game-world vision that defines both character classes and racial affinities so that player choices are required and affect character development and abilities -- including prestige class.

  7. #7
    Community Member Wanesa's Avatar
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    OP wants to transfer the game from the class-based game system (characters are locked in their selected classes) to the skill based game system? (a character can pick and train any skill available in the game limited only by the prerequisites on that skill. Classes are defined blurredly only as sets of skills connected together. )

    I did not see good skill-based systems.

    At least, D&D is class-based. Such a transfer is impossible here.

    Thelanis: Shewind the Airbender (Sorc20/Epic5 -> Bard20/Epic8 -> Rog20/Epic8/Epic2 -> Harper_FvS20/Epic4 -> Art20/Epic8/Epic8 -> Rng20/Epic10 -> Drd6),
    Azaxe (Rog18/Wiz2 -> Sorc20/Epic8/Epic10->Sorc(EK)17)

  8. #8
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    Lightbulb Illuminating the darkness…

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Prestige class implies a preexisting character class serving as a prerequisite. Enhancements imply a preexisting skill set related to that same prerequisite character class.

    Consequently, removing the link between enhancements and character class is thematically inconsistent. Any reading of the suggestion that results in a discussion on removing the link between enhancements and character class is not only a misreading of the subject but also to be opposed as antithetical to the game.

    Similarly, the proposal itself, which is to remove the link between prestige class and character class, must also be opposed on the same basis. The entire foundation of the character class system rests on characters being the culmination of their experiences. This is represented within the game by the deliberately restrictive links that associate specific prestige classes with prerequisite character classes.

    In the case of racially associated prestige classes there is a story-line connection relating the character race to a prevailing cultural condition that honors and encourages the development of skills that, sometimes, fall outside of the character's chosen class. To permit free association on a racial basis to prestige classes means bypassing the character class prerequisite. It also means bypassing the cultural condition that gives rise to racial affinities for specific prestige classes.

    Both break the underlying foundation upon which the fantasy game world of DDO is built.

    Thus, the idea presented by the OP must be opposed. The right approach is to remain consistent with a game-world vision that defines both character classes and racial affinities so that player choices are required and affect character development and abilities -- including prestige class.
    Do not play much D&D do you? Your fundamental assumption is flawed; therefore, your entire argument is moot. Go crack the Player’s Handbook or visit http://www.d20srd.org/



    Quote Originally Posted by Wanesa View Post
    OP wants to transfer the game from the class-based game system (characters are locked in their selected classes) to the skill based game system? (a character can pick and train any skill available in the game limited only by the prerequisites on that skill. Classes are defined blurredly only as sets of skills connected together. )

    I did not see good skill-based systems.

    At least, D&D is class-based. Such a transfer is impossible here.
    I am quite capable of speaking/typing for myself thank you. Whatever you seem to think, it is neither what I want nor what I asked for.

  9. #9
    Community Member PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Using the term "prestige classes" in this discussion is useless because there are no "prestige classes" in DDO. D&D doesn't have enhancements so there's no precedent for whether enhancements should be tied to a class or not.

    There isn't really any reason to even refer to "prestige enhancements" any more because, mm, there AREN'T any in the new Enhancements system. There are just core enhancements and tier enhancements. Neither of these are "prestige" because what distinguished something as a "prestige" class or enhancement was that a.) they were more powerful than other enhancements, b.) they required a specific build path and had substantially more requirements than other enhancements, and c.) taking them had radical effects on your character build.

    Now, there aren't any non-prestige enhancements. They're all just enhancements.

  10. #10
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    Arrow TomAto/Tomato

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    Using the term "prestige classes" in this discussion is useless because there are no "prestige classes" in DDO. D&D doesn't have enhancements so there's no precedent for whether enhancements should be tied to a class or not.
    If you wish to be pedantic yes you are correct; not that I made that mistake. While the others have I do not believe it detracts from their (baseless) arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    There isn't really any reason to even refer to "prestige enhancements" any more because, mm, there AREN'T any in the new Enhancements system. There are just core enhancements and tier enhancements. Neither of these are "prestige" because what distinguished something as a "prestige" class or enhancement was that a.) they were more powerful than other enhancements, b.) they required a specific build path and had substantially more requirements than other enhancements, and c.) taking them had radical effects on your character build.
    Here you are wrong. Turbine can change their name, but whether we refer to a Prestige Enhancement, Prestige Tree or Enhancement Tree it is all the same. Your ‘requirements’ for defining PrEs are laughable.

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    Now, there aren't any non-prestige enhancements. They're all just enhancements.
    Perhaps to help you understand the original concept you could think about delinking Class and Enhancement Tree if you prefer…

  11. #11
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Ok seems that the rest of us don't get it. Please enlighten us on how having all class enhancement trees available to everyone regardless of class/race requirements will be better.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    I'm trying to follow the logic and understand how the Wizard Tree will help a Barbarian, or how the Paladin Tree will help out a Bard or Druid.
    I don't think he said the Wizard tree would help a Barbarian.

    But maybe the Barbarian tree would help a melee-oriented mostly-Wizard multiclass. Or the Wizard tree might help the caster-oriented Cleric or Bard. Or the Paladin tree help the Bear-form tank-type Druid. Or whatever.

    Of course not every possible combination will be optimal. I think the increased flexibility would be good. It would make certain fun flavor builds more viable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Ok seems that the rest of us don't get it. Please enlighten us on how having all class enhancement trees available to everyone regardless of class/race requirements will be better.
    It would provide more options.

    Let me turn that around. How would it be worse?

    If the worst to come of it is "newbs might make poor choices and thus suck, because they don't know better than taking the Wiz tree on their Barb", well, I'm not swayed.

  13. #13
    The Hatchery
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    I'm not convinced this is the way to go, but I do think we need more flexibility than the lama version had.
    <seemingly offensive Army of Darkness quote>

  14. #14
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    I can see it now:

    75% of the Server Playing Pale Clerics!

    20% Playing Rogue Splashed Fighter Assassins!

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I don't think he said the Wizard tree would help a Barbarian.

    But maybe the Barbarian tree would help a melee-oriented mostly-Wizard multiclass.
    Oh Gawd yeah - Warforged Sorcs with Frenzied Berserker for the Self Healing Barb!
    Last edited by FranOhmsford; 08-08-2013 at 10:41 AM.

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