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  1. #61
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Him, and no it's not private Ungood just turned the condescension up a notch because I disagree with (at least) how they are wording their (apparently?) agreeable statements.
    Actually, it was direct mockery in response to your misrepresenting what i was trying to say.

    Lets not sugar coat it.

  2. #62
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I might be wrong here, and that could be the case, but aren't you the guy that has been fan-boying EQ, which IIRC, it's entire development was under the despotic rule of Brad "The Vision"
    Hardly fanboi-ing. More like using it as an example of a game that has been in the market twice as long as DDO, which still has comparable population - in response to folks who tried to tell me that all examples of sub based games have failed. In the same discussion it is also noted that the most populated, and 8 out of the next 10 games, are sub based.

    As far as "entire development" youre mistaken. Try less than half its life.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Revamp old endgame, redo the loot (don't spend lots of time changing the quests, just make their loot relevant), and put in heroic comms upgrades on all of it, make it scale up to level 28 (and then 30) like Cove does, then spend some time making a couple new "random element" Uber dungeons... in the Planes maybe something inspired by the Labyrinth of the Sundering books (Weiss and Hickman). Or Planescape! City of Doors indeed! What a great justification for a massive randomized procedural element dungeon. Add some stuff that doesn't have this meta gaming crutch that causes everyone to go away between updates. Put random secret doors and alcoves and chest false bottoms, in there and make people SEARCH for them and not while running, make people want to stick together like EE's because it's the best tactic to survive... go down steps and expect the mobs to get harder, use procedural mobs (See Diablo). Put Demi-gods in there are friends or foes depending on how the party handles them. Give us something to use those max TR's and ED abilities on... Cause right now there's no reason to bother playing past level 20...
    I agree with everything except the idea of putting heroic commendations on all the loot. I disagree with the idea of raiding being the only way to get Epic loot. I don't like most of the raids that exist and the ones I do like don't get run very often. Grinding quests is bad enough, getting twice as many people together to grind raids is not something I want to be forced into.

  4. #64
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    The longest I actively played a computer game for was about five years. That was Baldur's Gate II Shadows of Amn, the Throne of Bhaal expansion extended it's longevity a couple more years after I had worn the game out. I also played a MUD (precursor to MMOs) for over seven years. Speaking of Tsunami you can still play it now but there are barely a handful of people there, maybe 6 or so active players where there were once 50-100 (which was quite a lot in the early 1990's). It's natural for games to peter out, I don't see it as a fault of the developers in any way.

    Rather than be critical it's best to take a break if you are feeling jaded. I do that with my games at home, I haven't played Knights of the Old Republic for over two years but I cast my beady eye over it today with renewed interest in kicking some Sith butt again.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Not to sound snide or anything, but, it's their game really, we just get to play it.
    Actually, this is not entirely true. Turbine is the developer for Dungeons and Dragons Online. Dungeons and Dragons is owned by Hasbro, through its subsidiary, Wizards of the Coast. Turbine has a contract with Wizards of the Coast that allows Turbine to develop Dungeons and Dragons Online. That contract expires in, I think, 2016. (Apologies, I cannot remember the source for the date, but if memory serves, this was one of the things that came from the year and a half squabble between Turbine, Atari, and Hasbro.)

    Turbine only has the right to create content and further develop Dungeons and Dragons Online so long as Turbine does so within the bounds of its contract with Wizards of the Coast.

  6. #66
    2014 DDO Players Council
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Actually, it was direct mockery in response to your misrepresenting what i was trying to say.

    Lets not sugar coat it.
    "Not to sound snide or anything, but, it's their game really, we just get to play it."

    Not sure how I'm misrepresenting you, I am sure I disagree with most of what you've been writing and I'm not interested in going round and round about it, so I'll squelch you rather than do that.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post

    Yeah it's a big pic and it shows about a year of data. unfortunately MOTU launched in July of last year so it's hard to to compare it against this past July.

    What it does show is that severs were hanging around say 17500 PRE-MOTU launch. Right now they are floating around the 12000 watermark so, as a generalization we can see that the populations are indeed down, well down from the pre-MOTU numbers and even down from the post MOTU rough average of say 14500.

    I don't think it's seasonal. It's burn out and lack of end game, thus reason to play your mains for many, many players.

    I play on Thelanis and at times find the LFM panel seriously lacking, I can't imagine what it's like on a less populated server.

    Honestly I am sure there is an issue with degrading player base and honestly I am equally sure raising the level cap is going to have, at best, no effect or more likely will further degrade end game.
    Awesome pull, man thank you for bringing this into the thread, I've saved a copy for future reference. It's very interesting that the lull before Motu had singificantly higher activity than the lull before this Expansion, I wonder if we'll see anywhere near the same peak activity or if it will take as long to settle back.

    I also play on Thelanis next to Khyber the most populated server, and I have the same feeling about the LFM panel. Admittedly I start playing right after prime time EST... but for example 10PM on a friday night, 2 highlighted LFM's in my range, 20 total LFM's half of them 1 man and 3 or 4 of those "bugged" LFM's where the person logged out with it up... That's not a healthy game. At 20-ish LFM's there are huge gapping holes with NOTHING to do. Even 30-ish there are level ranges with nothing for long stretches of time (that's roughly what I was seeing back during the "whats the excuse for no players" thread.). I surmise that 12k-10k logins seems to be right at the floor minimum to have a pug scene at all. Under the current overly restrictive and poorly working LFM system. I can't imagine what the pug scene is going to look like when everyone is a little more spread out with 28 levels, and the player base drops again after this upcoming spike from the Expansion pack.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  8. #68

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    The last chart shows a 17K to 13K change. Is the sky still falling?

  9. #69
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Not sure how I'm misrepresenting you, I am sure I disagree with most of what you've been writing and I'm not interested in going round and round about it, so I'll squelch you rather than do that.
    I even quoted what part you were misrepresenting about me. Here, let me hold your hand show you again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    It appears to me that you're mad they didn't like some ideas you had and for that reason you're trying to push the idea that nothing we ever say or do will ever change their mind.
    LOL. Nahh, you have it all wrong there kiddo.
    If you ever wondered why developers do not listen to most of their player base, it is because they are made up of people like you, who simply will not listen or observe what is being said, and the reality is that it quickly becomes apparent that they is simply no reasoning with your kind, you just go running off with your own tangents wanting to be right and be the authority of the subject, , and when someone disagrees with you, you attack them with personal insults and want to squelch them. Really, why would anyone take you seriously? I don't anymore, so feel fee to squelch me.

    It's clear you don't speak for the player base, or even really grasp what they want or need overall, yet you try to act like you do, that is why companies don't bother to listen to customers, especially gamers.

    Anyone with an iota of any grasp of what was going on around them would know that it's nothing turbine has done at this point, there have been a slew of top tier games like GW2, SWG, NW, chipping away at DDO's numbers, and most of the motives that players have for leaving is not what DDO is doing today, or this expansion, but deeply rooted motives of what DDo has been doing over the course of the last few years.

    And Yes.. It is very much "They are Gods and we are Mortals" as far as what happens with this game, you thought your choices were more then "Leave or Stay" as far as your impact on this game goes, then you thought VERY wrong. If they listen to any of us, it is because they chose to, because they wanted to, not because they had to.

    Every idea that you think we changed, they only changed things because they wanted to make us happy, not because we twisted their arm.

  10. #70
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    Okay thread related news, Mr Rowan actually PM'ed me and related the brief but informative news that (direct quote):

    "Primarily we're looking to have more updates. Hope that answers. "

    This is interesting in that he didn't try to spin anything, and that at least we know they are aware of the problem and are tying to do something about it. The question is is this something we're going to see more evidence of (more updates) or that they are already maxed out on and are just hoping the trends change?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blood View Post
    The last chart shows a 17K to 13K change. Is the sky still falling?
    No one said the sky is falling, just that the PUG scene is unhealthy for the game and maybe Turbine should try and mitigate the loss of players between updates. Again we have a cherry pick (the data point right before MOTU was released) which joins the week before eGH was released as the "everything is just fine" side of the arguments shining ray of hope?

    This is like saying "When I had pneumonia the first time I had a 17% chance to live but I recovered, the second time I had a 15% chance and then recovered, so now the third time I'm only down to 13%... so things are looking up. LOL

    In the simplest terms we can see 17k turn into 30k slowly peter out to 15k (pre eGH) jump to 20k (eGH) and slowly peter out to 12k with barely a bump from the shadowfell pre quest updates and expansion pre orders.

    Obviously in a couple weeks we will see another bump, that should be bigger than eGH was, but probably wont get very close to MOTU's 30k activity... It will then drop off just like all the other months after updates... and we'll see where it settles to before the next update.

    Who knows maybe they'll fix some LFM issues (at least figure out a way to make Elite BB a 4 level range, and teleport people to quests) before then and the PUG scene will be healtheir because of lowering the Resistance (friction) level.
    Last edited by IronClan; 08-09-2013 at 04:35 PM.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  11. #71
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blood View Post
    The last chart shows a 17K to 13K change. Is the sky still falling?
    Quite possibly, but maybe not with the blip of the expansion it doesn't look to bad.

    The steady decline from Post MOTU numbers is seriously concerning I would hope it took about two months to hit pre-expansion numbers and has been in steady decline since then. Bleeding out about 8k daily logins in about 8 months is kind of frightening should that trend continue.

    We would be looking at servers having Wayfinder numbers in about a year. Now I don't think that is going to happen but the trend is not good, not good at all. Granted one would hope that the expansion results in an upward tick, and I don't doubt it will I expect that to be FAR smaller (it's not the same kind of expansion). Now whether it's long lasting trend or shot in the dark entirely rests on how the Enhancement Pass and Epic TR is received.

    The sad fact is that the "expansion" has almost nothing to do with content and it really all about the enhancement and TR changes. Right now I would say that receptions is luke warm.


  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    Quite possibly, but maybe not with the blip of the expansion it doesn't look to bad.

    The steady decline from Post MOTU numbers is seriously concerning I would hope it took about two months to hit pre-expansion numbers and has been in steady decline since then. Bleeding out about 8k daily logins in about 8 months is kind of frightening should that trend continue.

    We would be looking at servers having Wayfinder numbers in about a year. Now I don't think that is going to happen but the trend is not good, not good at all. Granted one would hope that the expansion results in an upward tick, and I don't doubt it will I expect that to be FAR smaller (it's not the same kind of expansion). Now whether it's long lasting trend or shot in the dark entirely rests on how the Enhancement Pass and Epic TR is received.

    The sad fact is that the "expansion" has almost nothing to do with content and it really all about the enhancement and TR changes. Right now I would say that receptions is luke warm.

    Is it realistic to expect an old game to maintain or grow its numbers in tne face of newer and more varied competition? Two hugely popular games rolled out last year. Another DnD competitor went on line this year. Ascribing all the attrition to Turbine's "failures" is unrealistic.

    In light of the competition, I hardly think 25% fewer log ins is "MASSIVE ATTRITION!!!" (if we are going to bother using that site's data).
    Last edited by Postumus; 08-09-2013 at 09:45 PM.

  13. #73
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Is it realistic to expect an old game to maintain or grow its numbers in tne face of newer and more varied competition? Two hugely popular games rolled out last year. Another DnD competitor went on line this year. Ascribing all the attrition to Turbine's "failures" is unrealistic.
    Well said.

    There is a larger picture going on here in the MMO world, and I am glad others see it as well.

  14. #74
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Ascribing all the attrition to Turbine's "failures" is unrealistic.
    So is it just me or are you more interested in defending Turbines honor from the cruel slings and arrows of unjust criticism than the topic at hand? I mean at least we're past the "demonize the evidence" phase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    In light of the competition, I hardly think 25% fewer log ins is "MASSIVE ATTRITION!!!" (if we are going to bother using that site's data).
    Where'd you get 25% from? MOTU roughly 30k down to now 12k or eGH's roughly 20k down to 12k? both of those are rather substantially more than a 25% drop. Or are we back to counting when the game wasnt very healthy to the next time it wasn't very healthy? I.e. from long after an update to now?

    Maybe that's a useful data point in some other conversation (like maybe what's the worst case scenario) but we're clearly trying to talk about "when its healthy to when its not".

    I hope Mr. Rowan can get updates out faster and help slow down the attrition. but I would feel a lot better if he was willing to look at adding some design elements that can keep people entertained and playing for longer between them. Even something as simple as puffing old end game on a regular basis to keep it relivant and give people something to do with their developed characters.

  15. #75
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Is it realistic to expect an old game to maintain or grow its numbers in tne face of newer and more varied competition? Two hugely popular games rolled out last year. Another DnD competitor went on line this year. Ascribing all the attrition to Turbine's "failures" is unrealistic..
    Everyone I know, LITERALLY EVERYONE, who quit playing DDO is not playing any other MMO. We are talking about over 30 people here, most of them founders or early joiners like me.

    WoW and therefore it's clones are exactly what they were trying to get away from when they landed on DDO. They played the game because it was different. The last year has moved the game to be more and more and more WoW like and continually decreased the difficulty.

    My playtime is probably 1/10th of what it used to be and I am not playing other MMO's either. They are playing games like Civ 5, CoD, Skyrim or doing something else entirely with their time. Some are waiting on the enhancement pass to see if they come back but of those few are hopeful.

    From where I am sitting I would have to say that ascribing all the attrition to Turbines "competitors" is unrealistic.


  16. #76
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    I would have to say that ascribing all the attrition to Turbines "competitors" is unrealistic.
    True, but to not attribute the loss to it's competitors is equally so unrealistic.

    Case in point, when I took a break from DDO, I met quite a few people I recognize form these forums on other game forums, and, my entire guild moved on to other games for a while, some of us came back (obviously).

    So, yes, major games coming out will cause some attrition to DDO, which is a dated game, and players burn out, again, nothing Turbine can do about that either.

    For all we really know the changes they made to the game may have functioned like a stop gap and retained players that may have been considering leaving, as opposed to having caused more players to leave. In that front, we simply do not have the information.

    All we have is info that says log-in activity is down. What conclusions we draw from that are in reality little more then just blind guesses slated with any agenda we feel inclined to push forward.
    Last edited by Ungood; 08-10-2013 at 12:29 AM.

  17. #77
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    I get what you are saying for sure but I don't really have an agenda other than ... make it fun again.

    The game is less fun than it used to be, and obviously to more and more people as the logons are decreasing.

    I know from those I talked to and looking at myself that it's got nothing to do with the graphics of the game it got nothing to do with the game play but everything to do with the instant gratification everyone gets a "winner" ribbon direction the game is twisting toward.

    I don't doubt a lot of people left for the new games but honestly how many of them have been long time DDO members. Few I am willing to bet, most of them who left probably have been around 2 years or less. And that part I think is critical. If you are losing the old guard, and I would agrue the best of it (as in the most helpful) then who is left to show the new players the ropes and help inginite in them the love and enjoyment in the game.

    There aren't many for sure and walking down that road leads you to trying to provide just enough instant gratification/win to keep ahead of the new players desire to keep them here. And I am quite sure Turbine's data shows that the longer people play the more likely they are to spend money on the game and the more they are likely to spend. I am also willing to bet that their data is showing that these same people have been spending less and less lately and that is why you see Otto's or Bigby's boxes on sale every 2-3 weeks.

    I bet if I really thought about it / measured it I probably spend more time on the forums now than I do in game and that, at least to me, shouts volumes.


  18. #78
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    The game is going to be less fun to me. I mean why the hell would I pay for a new xpack when they take my main class, that I have been playing since I started DDO, and nerf the hell out of it so it becomes truly a splash only or be gimp?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  19. #79

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    17th of August the day DDO players loses half of it's devoted players (the half that is left) :P

    CAN'T WAIT
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    Afteristar & Empha on Ghallanda

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Okay thread related news, Mr Rowan actually PM'ed me and related the brief but informative news that (direct quote):

    "Primarily we're looking to have more updates. Hope that answers. "
    He doesn't need to spin anything since it's fairly ambiguous. Granted it's cool that he responded. But I, in my skeptical view of Turbine wonder what "more updates" really means. And what I mean by that is as follow:

    1. Given the history of Updates and Expansions getting smaller and smaller (fewer quests, raids, etc) is he banking on the fact that just using the term "Update" or "Expansion" more often will drive more players to log in even though in reality we are getting less and less content?
    2. Do they actually want to strive for more content and break the current cycle of downsizing?
    3. If option 2 is indeed their goal, how do they plan on achieving that while also providing (what I call) the illusion of polish and as bug free as possible?


    Obviously it would be extremely naive to expect any sort of actual response to that. I'd be surprised if we get some sort of canned response.

    I sent him some suggestions for some issues right after he introduced himself and he got back to me "appreciate the suggestions". Granted it was 2 months later and seemed more of a thanks but no thanks. But to be fair, I am kinda the person who would rather have no response than a copy/pasted one that is seemingly hollow. "We appreciate and welcome feedback" is morphing into something similar to how Soon(tm) is in poor taste. I'd much rather have the "Ugly Truth" than some twisted spin on things.

    PS, I realize many of you won't agree with what how I feel on the subject and that's ok. The good things about feelings is there is not right or wrong. But to those Turbine cheerleaders: please don't blast me in hopes to convince me otherwise. Only a visible and apparent policy change from Turbine has any hope of achieving that.
    Last edited by Drwaz99; 08-10-2013 at 11:53 AM.

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