Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 58
  1. #21
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,673

    Default

    I'm actually having a really tough time deciding between dex and str on a q-staff stealth build (12 fvs/5mnk/3rog if dex on damage is chosen).

    On the one hand str normally gets you higher damage and you don't have to spread out your stats as much. You also qualify for overwhelming crit.

    On the other hand, dex gets you higher reflex saves and improves your hide and move silently, which could possibly matter now that sneaking works differently. You will be able to do things like sneak at normal or better movement speed through enhancements as well as jump and tumble while sneaking. Plus monster sneak detection is getting cleaned up. This might make a lot more quests start looking like Claw of Vulkoor.

    I don't really consider tactics something to consider on builds that aren't splashing fighter or paladin for strength boosts and tactical bonuses, so that's a non issue.

    Anyway, its a trade off. I don't think it's as cut and dry as just considering DPS differences. There are pros and cons to going dex and str.

  2. #22
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    My place
    Posts
    431

    Default

    I'm sorry, but Dex to hit and damage is awesome, not a trap.

    You have classes where you gain little advantage by going dex build (Such as fighters, barbs, and paladins), but classes that do have others to make up for the lack of tactics feats (that these builds likely couldn't afford anyways). One is going ranged to stay out of reach and not need the tactics in the first place (be it hiding behind your melee/summons/pets or kiting). The other is you gain much from that dex and have stuff to back it up in the first place. Rogues gain on the reflex saves which is extra powerful with their evasion, increase their lock/trap abilities, increase AC to bolster their light/no armor, and can now do that without sacrificing their damage as majorly. With their Assassinates and growing list of ways to insta-kill, why would they need tactic feats they can't afford anyways? Instant death > CC. Things that you can't insta-kill, you can't CC anyways. Monks already have class CC of Stunning Fist backed up with some of the highest DC potential backed up by some of the highest double strike chance allowing that stun two rolls or multiple targets. Druids already tie in well with Monk levels, but also have spells that can add some CC with knockdowns or extreme slows.

    So really, the problem is not losing out on any value by being a Dex build, but rather losing out by the fact you can't boost DEX as high as STR and that much of the more powerful weapons are not finessable... so you won't be max potential pure weapon DPS as a DEX build. While this was a stronger argument pre-EDs and these enhancement passes, now they're pulling in more skills and abilities based off your class stats... so it's no longer a game of just auto-attack, and thus all quality based off that bar.

    Personally my Khopesh STR Rogue is going to be rolled DEX with this coming update.

  3. #23
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    5,551

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The issue isn't that DEX can be used for damage.

    The issue is that the best one-handers currently are finesse weapons.
    Dex for damage on my ranger is the only thing I'm looking forward to in this whole mish-mosh that is coming our way. Though I'm worried that rapiers will not be dex for damage weapons for tempest rangers (I am hoping that they are.)

    I will also admit to you that I've shelved most of my characters of late and have really only worked on my tempest ranger, so I am well aware of weapons like Agony and Celestia, but I'd like more info regarding your comment about the best single hand weapons being finesse. Could you expand on that a bit please?
    /sigh

  4. #24
    Uber Uber Completionist
    2014 DDO Player Council
    The Stormreach Campaign
    Deadlock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Scotland - where the dwarf accents come from
    Posts
    3,808

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironforge_Clan View Post
    I disagree. If you are building a finesse build with high dexterity you aren't building for tactical strikes...although trip could be argued either way.
    Have always said that Trip should be based on STR or DEX, whichever is highest.

  5. #25
    Community Member Kayla93's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    950

    Default

    Dex builds were introduced in rogue and elf/tempest trees.
    So I guess theyre directed for those classes.

    Rogues HAVE to have good reflex - so dex to dmg is great addition to them. Also - most of rogues use assassinate or blind/paralyze weapons when theres a need - and that enough CC.
    Tempests - I can understand the thought - because ranger is supposed to be both bow and melee at the same time (autogranted feats really show that). Dex is needed to hit with bows - so its hard to be good at both melee and ranged attacks - with dex to dmg with bows(elf tree) and finesse weapons(tempest tree) thats easier.

    But dex to dmg is not worth it for fighters, barbarians, paladins, most of monks builds - and its ok.
    I mean rogues rught now on live need - str, dex, con and int.
    Monks - str, dex, wis, con - so I get why thats option was introduced to them.
    Rangers - str, dex, con - but need both melee and ranged combat.

    While fighters and barbarians need only str and con, paladins also some cha. Eventually 17 dex for TWF :P.
    So its better for them to focus on STR and tactic feats. And it should stay that way.
    We dont want all-dex builds now.

    It is an option with some sacrifices for classes like rogue and ranger - that have problem having all those needed stats and that have evasion/imp evasion so high reflex is important for them.

  6. #26
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,404

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Dex for damage on my ranger is the only thing I'm looking forward to in this whole mish-mosh that is coming our way. Though I'm worried that rapiers will not be dex for damage weapons for tempest rangers (I am hoping that they are.)

    I will also admit to you that I've shelved most of my characters of late and have really only worked on my tempest ranger, so I am well aware of weapons like Agony and Celestia, but I'd like more info regarding your comment about the best single hand weapons being finesse. Could you expand on that a bit please?
    For rapiers a Ranger needs the Weapon Finesse Feat and the Improved Weapon Finesse Enhancement (Tier 2) in Deepwood Stalker.

    Balizarde and Celestia, only non finesse one handed weapon that matters is Nightmare and arguably all you need from it is proficiency since its a "swing for the fences" weapon.

  7. #27
    Community Member Johnstone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    39

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by blaze44 View Post
    I would have to disagree also...

    Already tested several builds based on Dex/Finesse , also tested my Acrobat build which also uses Dex for q-staves.

    I am very pleased with the results.
    I too am pleased with my Acrobat, for the most part. I would prefer to not need to have a 13 in strength at creation though; which I do (ok, I don't *need* it) want for Power Attack so that I can take Cleave and Great Cleave. Sure, Acrobats now get a few good AoE attacks, but Cleave and Great Cleave have so much shorter cooldowns it feels wrong to even think about not taking them. So yeah, having Power Attack and Overwhelming Crit use str or dex would be awesome, or to have another option that counted as Power Attack for prereqs. Probably not going to change at this point, but it sure would be nice.

  8. #28
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnstone View Post
    I too am pleased with my Acrobat, for the most part. I would prefer to not need to have a 13 in strength at creation though; which I do (ok, I don't *need* it) want for Power Attack so that I can take Cleave and Great Cleave. Sure, Acrobats now get a few good AoE attacks, but Cleave and Great Cleave have so much shorter cooldowns it feels wrong to even think about not taking them. So yeah, having Power Attack and Overwhelming Crit use str or dex would be awesome, or to have another option that counted as Power Attack for prereqs. Probably not going to change at this point, but it sure would be nice.
    Cleaves suck for TWFing. There should be another option for OC.

  9. #29
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    London, Great Britain
    Posts
    169

    Default

    Hrm, well I would err on the side of caution with allowing full dexterity to damage. The attribute system has to be balanced and it's a mistake to try and polarize the game around a single statistic. Half dexterity modifier to damage would be a good compromise and then, only for light weapons. Weapon Finesse would be a minimum feat prerequisite. Expertise might also want to be thrown in the mix.

    Just wondering if Rogue Acrobat/Staff is going to be double dexterity to damage? Also, will it be one and a half times dex for being a two handed weapon? If it is then that's triple dexterity to damage, plus one and a half times strength, bleh.

  10. #30
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    5,551

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    For rapiers a Ranger needs the Weapon Finesse Feat and the Improved Weapon Finesse Enhancement (Tier 2) in Deepwood Stalker.

    Balizarde and Celestia, only non finesse one handed weapon that matters is Nightmare and arguably all you need from it is proficiency since its a "swing for the fences" weapon.
    I thought there was dex for damage in the tempest tree. Did that get changed or did I just mis-read it?
    /sigh

  11. #31
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    5,551

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aolas View Post
    Hrm, well I would err on the side of caution with allowing full dexterity to damage. The attribute system has to be balanced and it's a mistake to try and polarize the game around a single statistic. Half dexterity modifier to damage would be a good compromise and then, only for light weapons. Weapon Finesse would be a minimum feat prerequisite. Expertise might also want to be thrown in the mix.

    Just wondering if Rogue Acrobat/Staff is going to be double dexterity to damage? Also, will it be one and a half times dex for being a two handed weapon? If it is then that's triple dexterity to damage, plus one and a half times strength, bleh.
    I think weapon finesse is a required feat. Even if it is not, what would be the point of not having it? Would you really use str for to-hit and dex for damage?

    Buying the weapon finesse feat on anything other than a fighter (i.e. lots of feats) is costly.
    /sigh

  12. #32
    Founder WeiQuinn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    South Central Pennsylvania
    Posts
    959

    Default

    I believe one of the Core Tempest abilities allows for Dexterity to be used for to-hit/damage for light melee weapons (scimitar being included since an earlier Core ability allows them to be treated as light weapons).

    There is also Weapon Finesse II available in the Deepwood Stalker tree.

    As an Elf pure Ranger who prefers Ranged, I was excited to see that Rapiers and Longswords were going to be able to use Dex as to-hit and damage, but was disappointed to hear that Bow Strength doesn't work (not sure if that's right, haven't been able to poke around the forums/Lamma to much this past weekend).

    I built my character with 32 strength and 36 dexterity, so I won't be bad off if I don't take the Dex to-hit for Longswords enhancement. I plan on dropping Imp Crit: Slashing and dual wielding Oathblades when I have to melee.
    WeiQuinn (Ranger 20/Epic 9) Syris (Ranger 18/Rogue 2/Epic 8) Torsade (Fighter 17) VaConMorte (Ranger 11/Monk 9/Epic 7) Neckron II (Ranger 4/Rogue 1) Shandrea (Ranger 18) Ryeva (Druid 12) Longthorne (Barbarian 7)

  13. #33
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,404

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    I thought there was dex for damage in the tempest tree. Did that get changed or did I just mis-read it?
    Tempest+Graceful Death Core enhancements in the Tempest tree let you use Dex for To-Hit and Damage with Light Weapon and Scimitars but not Rapiers. In order to get Dex for Damage on a Rapier you need Improved weapon Finesse from the Deepwood Stalker tree or you can be an Elf and get it with Grace from the Elf tree. Neither Improved Weapon Finesse or Grace will give you Dex to To-Hit with out Weapon Finesse. This was all tested by me on Friday night.
    Last edited by Grailhawk; 08-06-2013 at 10:30 AM.

  14. #34
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    528

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    Tempest+Graceful Death Core enhancements in the Tempest tree let you use Dex for To-Hit and Damage with Light Weapon and Scimitars but not Rapiers. In order to get Dex for Damage on a Rapier you need Improved weapon Finesse from the Deepwood Stalker tree or you can be an Elf and get it with Grace from the Elf tree. Neither Improved Weapon Finesse or Grace will give you Dex to To-Hit with out Weapon Finesse. This was all tested by me on Friday night.
    Using Tempest for To-Hit and Damage requires 6 levels of ranger. As an alternate approach with only 4 levels of ranger, I used To-Hit from the Tempest tree and damage from the Deepwood tree with scimitars. Note this does require the Weapon Finesse feat.
    .

  15. #35
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,404

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Humperdink View Post
    Using Tempest for To-Hit and Damage requires 6 levels of ranger. As an alternate approach with only 4 levels of ranger, I used To-Hit from the Tempest tree and damage from the Deepwood tree with scimitars. Note this does require the Weapon Finesse feat.
    Think you can do it with just 3 Levels Tempest I requires 3 levels and Improved weapon Finesse is Tier 2 so I assume it only needs 2. I can see taking Ranger 4 for other reason though. That will get you all Light Weapons, Finesseable Weapon and Scimitars with Dex as To-Hit and Damage.

  16. #36
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    This was all tested by me on Friday night.
    Did you manage to do an EE Sobrien beatdown? What kind of time were you able to squeeze in?

  17. #37
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    290

    Default

    Dex builds have better survivability in the form of additional AC
    Oh man, laughed so hard when I got to this that someone had to poke their head in my office to check on me!

    As to the original topic, I have to agree. There are extremely few, very specific builds where you are not making a massive sacrifice in the form of Overwhelming Critical. Using Dex for your to-hit and damage seems like great synergy to keep a top shelf reflex save as well, but in the end that loss of critical damage is really going to hurt you. Or more specifically, not hurt your opponents.

  18. #38
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    528

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    Think you can do it with just 3 Levels Tempest I requires 3 levels and Improved weapon Finesse is Tier 2 so I assume it only needs 2. I can see taking Ranger 4 for other reason though. That will get you all Light Weapons, Finesseable Weapon and Scimitars with Dex as To-Hit and Damage.
    You're right Grail. I tested this with a 16Art/4Rgr and a 16Art/3Rgr/1Ftr split.
    .

  19. #39
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,404

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Did you manage to do an EE Sobrien beatdown? What kind of time were you able to squeeze in?
    One Fully upgraded Balizarde and one Unupgraded Balizarde Sobrien permanently helpless (overwhelming force lock) Repeated test 5 times best time was 28 seconds worst time was 34 seconds. Ranger 20.
    Last edited by Grailhawk; 08-06-2013 at 04:32 PM.

  20. #40
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,404

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    Oh man, laughed so hard when I got to this that someone had to poke their head in my office to check on me!

    As to the original topic, I have to agree. There are extremely few, very specific builds where you are not making a massive sacrifice in the form of Overwhelming Critical. Using Dex for your to-hit and damage seems like great synergy to keep a top shelf reflex save as well, but in the end that loss of critical damage is really going to hurt you. Or more specifically, not hurt your opponents.
    18 + 5 Tome = 23 Str

    A 18,18,12,8,8,8 stat array is possible on a 36 point Human you can have both. Con of 12 is fine on any one who has a +5 Str tome odds are they know how to play the game and can use gear to make up for there base CON sort comings. Its not a build for a newbe.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload