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Thread: Master Thrower

  1. #1
    Founder coolpenguin410's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Master Thrower

    First of all, I like to give the devs a kudos for at least paying attention to throwing weapons and adding a few enhancements for them. That said, it needs to be taken to the next step.

    My first character that I ever rolled up was a halfling rogue thrower build. Needless to say it was pretty terrible. However, I couldn't really see that and I managed to get the character to level 17. Thank you to all the unwitting pugs who carried him. (Not to say I didn't carry my weight when stealth and trap skills were needed. He's a halfling, so he doesn't weigh much.)

    For fun, I brought him over to the test server to see what he would be like at the current cap. Between the new halfling enhancements and Shadarii Champion, the character is actually viable again. I brought him out to Epic Giant Hold and between Pin Shot and Otto's Whistler Arrow, was able to take down giants in 2-3 hits.

    There is always room for improvement. First of all, Archer's Stance doesn't work with thrown weapons. There is really no reason that it shouldn't. This forces you into Improved Precise Shot stance or nothing at all.

    In order to become a good thrower, you have to wait until late game. This means you have to level as a Thief Acrobat or be a really bad thrower until you can unlock the Dex-to-damage enhancement. You can't improve your throwing speed until Shadarii Champion's 3rd tier (IIRC). Unless you start off as a ranger, this means you're talking somewhere in the level range of 24-25 until you can switch Destinies and your throwing speed picks up enough to keep up with the dps of an archer. (Personally, I see Master Thrower as fitting better with rogue. I know some may say fighter or ranger, but that's just me.)

    Also, there aren't many fun things to do as a thrower. Master Thrower had a bunch of neat tricks that allowed the thrower to add extra damage, throw extra weapons or allow for sneak attack. All of this was well before epic levels. Here are some suggestions I have.

    Make a Master Thrower PrE. This can be open to any race, just like the PrC is in PnP. Halflings should qualify for free, regardless of class.

    All ranged bonuses should apply to throwing weapons unless they specifically call for long/short/crossbows only.

    Double Toss: Passive. +1[W] when wielding thrown weapons. This adds +1d8 damage, tops (green steel throwing axe).

    Palm Throw: Active. Attack that renders the target vulnerable to sneak attack for 4 seconds. 10 second cool down.

    Trip Shot: Active. Attack forces to the target to save vs. trip. Bonuses that apply to your trip DC apply to this attack. 15 second cool down. (Use higher of Dex or Str for DC base.)

    Two With One Blow: Stance. Master Thrower also hits one other target close to the selected target. Priority is determined by distance (i.e. closest enemy is also hit). (Does not interfere with other stances.)

    Weak Spot: Active. For 20 seconds, renders the target vulnerable to sneak attack even if they are normally immune. Reduces target's fortifications by 10%. 30 second cool down.

    Invisible Throw: Passive. Increases throwing speed by 10%/20%/30%.

    That's all I got for now. Would love to hear some dev feedback. See you in game!
    Last edited by coolpenguin410; 07-14-2013 at 02:53 PM.

  2. #2

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    Those are pretty cool ideas. I'd put together a thrower build with something like that to look forward to.

    Just out of curiosity, what kind of build are you using for your thrower? or what you would recommend given the new enhancements? I might try something out when I get back to my computer. (Waiting on the Prison portal to get fixed anyway, heh!)

  3. #3
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    At the moment, i wouldn't make a thrower build with out at least 3 levels of monk(ninja spy).

    dex-to-hit
    dex-to-damage
    stacking poison stance
    shuriken expertise-feat
    shuriken expertise- lvl3 core

    better thrower
    add in 4-5 ranger levels
    free precise shot, twf, rapid throw, a 1-2 favored enemies, access to deepwood sniper tree for extended pbs/sneak attack range

    after that, your options are rogue or fighter.
    rogue gives more sneak attack, traps, and umd
    fighter gives bonuses to hit and damage, and a couple more unique abilities

    at least that's how i'd go for a pure thrower.

  4. #4
    Founder coolpenguin410's Avatar
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    As I mentioned, I feel rogue matches Master Thrower thematically the best. As such, my thrower only has a 1 level splash of fighter. The biggest benefit is the weapon proficiencies. You get throwing axe, throwing hammers and shields for free. The extra feat is a big help as well. Take all the ranged feats including rapid reload and quick draw as they both (marginally) increase your throwing speed. You need all the attack rate you can get to approach reasonable dps levels.

    I don't really care for shurikens as whatever you get from them, you can match by switching between axes and daggers with a better base damage. Halfling enhancements give you dex to damage and an increased crit profile.

    Currently, getting Precise Shot for free means very little as it does not work with thrown weapons. I can understand ranger levels for the increased base attack which does have a small effect on throw speed. However, there are always Divine Power clickies or scrolls. Deepwood Sniper is great for a thrower, but less sneak attack. The dps would be similar to a full rogue, though I suspect a slight tip in favor of the sniper. I still prefer rogue for traps, umd and flavor. A 18/1/1 build might do very well here, though it means giving up the capstone.

    The important thing to keep in mind is the dex to damage and what that means for your strength. For my rogue on Lama, I LR'ed and dumped strength and maxed dex (6, 20, 14, 14, 8, 10). There was a surprise with having such a low strength: break-down doors. There are a few doors that you have to break down that you can actually have too low a strength to do so with a melee weapon. Fortunately, a wand of fireball solves that problem.

    That said, that much dex is wasted on any build that does not get dex to damage (sorry pure fighter). This is not a problem for rogue and ranger builds with the right weapons and enhancements. You're still not going to have power attack, though. If you raise strength to 13 for PA, it's a wasted feat when you're throwing, and throwing is feat intensive.

  5. #5
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Don't forget that 2 Levels of Artificer give you access to Runearms which add their full damage enhancements to throwing weapons (i'm lookin at you Glass Cannon with 2d8 Bludgeon damage and 2d10 fire damage plus one yellow augment slot!) plus the Enchant weapon spell which adds another +1 attack and damage (and a cute lvl 2 Arti Pet that can pull levers in quests like PoP). Some of the Runearms innate attacks can even break down doors and add a bit of bonus damage. Unfortunately Tira's splendour silver DR breaking effect does not work with throwing weapons.
    Last edited by Firewall; 07-16-2013 at 06:52 AM.

  6. #6
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    Don't forget that 2 Levels of Artificer give you access to Runearms which add their full damage enhancements to throwing weapons (i'm lookin at you Glass Cannon with 2d8 Bludgeon damage and 2d10 fire damage plus one yellow augment slot!) plus the Enchant weapon spell which adds another +1 attack and damage (and a cute lvl 2 Arti Pet that can pull levers in quests like PoP). Some of the Runearms innate attacks can even break down doors and add a bit of bonus damage. Unfortunately Tira's splendour silver DR breaking effect does not work with throwing weapons.
    Rune arms uncenter you, disabling 10k stars.


    Also throwers need a way to bypass DR. Lets be honest here, by throwers we all mean shuriken. Shuriken have the worst base damage, crit range, and crit multiplier in ddo. Even a +10w would be negated by most boss DR due to it only being 1x1d2 x2 on crits.



    Here's an enhancement i suggest:
    Ninja Spy tier 2
    Pointed mind
    Your shuriken become an extension of your will and are infused with ki. They now deal untyped damage bypassing all known forms of damage reduction.


    Ninja Spy tier 5
    Ki poison (pre-requisite: Sting of the Ninja)
    Your ninja poison bubbles with ki becoming something supernatural in nature. It is now able to damage monsters immune to natural poisons. The mixture is volatile however, and will not function with Melee weapons.


    Those 2 will give throwers a viable tier 5 (even on my 20 monk on lammania I didn't take ninja spy tier 5, as they stink, but still took 40pt capstone), as well as solve their DR and poison immune dps issues.
    Last edited by Delacroix21; 07-30-2013 at 12:13 AM.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    Rune arms uncenter you, disabling 10k stars.
    My post was in answer to the suggestions of rogue thrower builds with splashes like fighter, ranger or monk that the OP was talking about. Artificers add a solid amount of damage to those builds. For example a rogue assassin build with 2 levels of artificer and a greensteel radiance II shuriken for auto-sneak attacks (like the build i use on the live servers) does a solid amount of DPS even though most of it is only applied at sneak attack range which is only short to mid-range.

    10k Stars Monk shuriken builds get a boost if you are ninja spy but also get nerfed because Ninja Spies loose the +1 bonus to passive Ki regen they get from the capstone on the live servers and thus regenerate the Ki for 10k Stars or the incorporeality much slower since you cannot gain Ki by throwing shuriken. This means they have to use a completely different bag of tricks to be useful and boost damage.
    Last edited by Firewall; 07-31-2013 at 05:57 AM.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by coolpenguin410 View Post
    There is always room for improvement. First of all, Archer's Stance doesn't work with thrown weapons. There is really no reason that it shouldn't. This forces you into Improved Precise Shot stance or nothing at all.
    In the next Lamannia build or so, Archer's Focus will work on Thrown Weapons.

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    I don't know if this just seems too imbalanced, but why not just allow for TWF to apply to thrown? It always has, no idea why it doesn't in DDO. At the end of the day, you're still not doing so much damage that barbs will cry.

    Is it just too simple?

    V

  10. #10
    Founder coolpenguin410's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    <snip>Lets be honest here, by throwers we all mean shuriken.<snip>
    Dear God, the horror! I most certainly do not mean shurikens. Shurikens need a lot more work to become viable.

    In the build I mentioned in the OP was using darts, daggers, axes and hammers. And the DPS was decent enough that I was taking down giants at a reasonable rate in Epic Gianthold.

    My point was that throwing is just for niche players right now. It needs a lot more work to become a more regular play style.

    Bypassing DR is not so hard, except for DR/-. With a little bit of work from my crafter, I expect wide array of throwing weapons in a variety of metals, alignments and damage types (pierce/slash/bludgeon) available to overcome any other DR!

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