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  1. #101
    Community Member MichelOue's Avatar
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    Cool Term "depreciated"

    Quote Originally Posted by Firepants View Post
    So, in your imaginary universe, people show up, blow a wad of cash on the game to get best in slot items for toons they, presumably, bought somewhere? I dunno, anyway, so these people drop a few hundred bucks or more and then go "eff it" and quit.

    What keeps people comin back to play more and more is the tedium of replaying the same quest infinitely to get one piece of a multi-piece set to make a single under powered item?

    Do you hang yourself by meat hooks through your nipples to relax? I don't get it, part 1 makes zero sense to any sane adult, and adding grind (tedium, boredom, frustration) to a game (which implies relaxation and fun) will keep 'em comin back for more because masochism?

    Please explain to me how anything you said is not just the arbitrary babbling of some broken mind hanging precariously over the edge of a fathomless abyss.

    FWIW: The old system was/is/and always has been terrible. It doesn't make a lot of sense, in a game where we now have a lot of quest options, to adhere to a system designed for a game with very few quest options (one in which you'd have to run the same quests over and over anyway). DDO, as it is now, has mitigated some of the crazy grind for loot and XP/content. This is good. Now the old system stuff needs to be deprecated or updated to conform to the current standard.
    Now compare that to ping pong, just a game brought to Olympics because some loved it: haha now depreciation is economics in capital, the game is no good if the ping pong ball is cheep and collapses hahahaha So the analogy standdddds here => think outside the box, Computer equates artificial intelligence, can this machine think differently than a stupid unimaginative programmer, who learned to talk machine language OR can we make the box express our deepest thoughts BRING THE Terrifying KRAKEN! Iliminate idiot like me low charisma hated characters just out of GIGAX RULE!

    I liked the comment it was funny at least to me depreciation, recession moron haters, yup I said it play the role you get by luck this is an imagination game, BE into it By the way look at the picture of a giant squid imagine it kissing you (key word imagine) Wiki that TOON.

  2. #102
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    Default Minor changes needed - not an absolute overhaul

    There is no need to make the items easier to acquire - however, there is a need to re-balance some of the items so that their attributes reflect the fact that they are 'epic' and ML 20. That can be accomplished with a simple item pass, similar to what was done with some of the items previously.

    Anything that eliminates the effort required to obtain rare seals/shards would be a step in the absolutely incorrect direction. One of the best features of old epic loot is that in general it is not easy to acquire and therefore helps to contribute to diversity in gear between characters. If there are ever to be 'best in slot' items, I want those items to be rare - not achievable by a turn in system.

    Vallin.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firepants View Post
    So, in your imaginary universe, people show up, blow a wad of cash on the game to get best in slot items for toons they, presumably, bought somewhere? I dunno, anyway, so these people drop a few hundred bucks or more and then go "eff it" and quit.

    What keeps people comin back to play more and more is the tedium of replaying the same quest infinitely to get one piece of a multi-piece set to make a single under powered item?

    Do you hang yourself by meat hooks through your nipples to relax? I don't get it, part 1 makes zero sense to any sane adult, and adding grind (tedium, boredom, frustration) to a game (which implies relaxation and fun) will keep 'em comin back for more because masochism?

    Please explain to me how anything you said is not just the arbitrary babbling of some broken mind hanging precariously over the edge of a fathomless abyss.

    FWIW: The old system was/is/and always has been terrible. It doesn't make a lot of sense, in a game where we now have a lot of quest options, to adhere to a system designed for a game with very few quest options (one in which you'd have to run the same quests over and over anyway). DDO, as it is now, has mitigated some of the crazy grind for loot and XP/content. This is good. Now the old system stuff needs to be deprecated or updated to conform to the current standard.
    but why exactly would people play any quest if not for the loot? and why would people play a quest if they got the needed loot already on the auction house?

    I understand if u play the game differently and i do also get that u maybe love to run random epic elite quests just for fun everyday without wanting loot or anything. And if u decide to not buy anything from the auction house cuz its too expensive then thats fine too. But i wonder what you are doing all day long in ddo if not playing the same quests/raids over and over again. and if u do that then dont u think it would b better to at least have a long term goal than just playing them cuz ur too addicted to quit but cant rly get good gear anymore cuz u got it all already?

    Good (named) gear must be hard to achieve and it must be better than random loot for 30k plat each piece.. not like now. But yes, i do love grinding for gear cuz it keeps me in the game and thats also the reason why i didnt buy the +5 tome bundle and the +4 or 5 to skills bundle

    Loulani (17 Druid, 2 Monk, 1 Artificer): a healer who cc's (70 Evocation DC) and does traps (110 Disable Device, 107 Search)

  4. #104
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallin View Post
    There is no need to make the items easier to acquire - however, there is a need to re-balance some of the items so that their attributes reflect the fact that they are 'epic' and ML 20. That can be accomplished with a simple item pass, similar to what was done with some of the items previously.

    Anything that eliminates the effort required to obtain rare seals/shards would be a step in the absolutely incorrect direction. One of the best features of old epic loot is that in general it is not easy to acquire and therefore helps to contribute to diversity in gear between characters. If there are ever to be 'best in slot' items, I want those items to be rare - not achievable by a turn in system.

    Vallin.
    I don't think folks are saying "both" but "one or the other". The people saying "make it easier to get" are probably assuming the loot won't be updated.

    Personally, Sands distribution needs a re-work. Other than that, I'd love it if they just replaced some of the stat/skill components with pre-slotted augments (that we could replace with more relevant stats) and maybe tie some of the other abilities directly to the ML (so if we stat it with a ML24 augment, the other ability gets bumpbed to the ML24 version). Leave any special "early" kinds of stat abilities in place (like a +2 or +7 stat - keep it ML20 don't put that in an augment) so the item itself is special.

    Fens would benefit greatly from the first - that's a host of gear that has some fun abilities that are not used because simply the core stats on them are pretty weak.

    Boots of the Mire - put that balance 15 in a colorless slot; turn the speed/striding from Marshwalker into "speed"

    Ring of the Mire - can't see anything handy

    Bracers of the Claw - move the fort to a blue or green slot.

    Gloves of the Claw - move the STR to a colorless slot.

    Elder's Cap - put the INT in a colorless and enchant bonus in a yellow.

    Elder's Necklace - put illusion bonus in a yellow.

    Raven's Talons - put the DEX in a colorless slot. Add additional "accuracy" at ML 24 and 28; no change to Raven's Sight.

    Greatclub of the Scraag - Add a red slot; change Icy Burst to "Icy (numeric)" and increase at ML24 and 28.

    Necklace of Venom - Put protection in a green slot.

    Ring of Venom - Put dex in colorless; Increase sneak at ML 24 and 28.

    Robe of Dissonance - Up potency to 60. Add purple slot prefilled w/ sonic SP.

    Sacred Band - Put WIS in a colorless slot. Increase healing SP based on ML of items in set (ML 20 = 90, ML 24 = 114, ML 28=128, etc.

    Sacred Helm - Put deathblock in a yellow slot.

    Shaman's Band - set bonus based on ML of both items - standard potency. Put conjuration focus in a yellow slot.

    Shaman's Beads - put stat in a colorless, focus in a yellow.

    Siren's Belt - Protection in a green slot

    Siren's Charm - CON in a colorless slot.

    etc.

    On paper it isn't hard - but I'm sure there's some work involved.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallin View Post
    There is no need to make the items easier to acquire - however, there is a need to re-balance some of the items so that their attributes reflect the fact that they are 'epic' and ML 20. That can be accomplished with a simple item pass, similar to what was done with some of the items previously.

    Anything that eliminates the effort required to obtain rare seals/shards would be a step in the absolutely incorrect direction. One of the best features of old epic loot is that in general it is not easy to acquire and therefore helps to contribute to diversity in gear between characters. If there are ever to be 'best in slot' items, I want those items to be rare - not achievable by a turn in system.

    Vallin.
    There's nothing 'rare' or especially super about some of the items in the old epic system. The issue is that you need 3 different things in order to unlock the epic potential. And in packs where there are a lot of different items, the shard drop, seal drop and scroll drop is diluted by way to many items. The result is a matter of luck. And when things because a matter of luck moreso then statistic probability to pull one (see also the eardweller) then people give up. I didn't give up on the eardweller - I eventually pulled one. But I have given up on lots of Epic items because the system is just that bad.

    And since we're now at level 28 these items are more or less worthless. And in the few cases where you have good items, such as ring of spell storing or ESoS, the rarity is built into the actual chase - first pulling the item itself, then coordinate scroll, shard and seal. To add a inflated sense of rarity by creating a morass of shard, seal and scroll drops through an abysmal random feature in a sea of crappy items is not adding a greater value.

    I don't want a similar system to what we have now; where you got the EN, EH or EE item and you can buy them off the shardAH. But I want a reasonable mathematical chance to pull the item. And that can be done through lots of different incremental chances. Like making a universal shard out of x amount of shards. That guarantee that you at least have the component within a given time as suppose to based on pure luck and frustration.

    Another way is to make shards and seals unbound, let the market set a value.

    Or simply increase the drop rate - in essence increasing the chance that you will eventually have the item.

    To do nothing will doom old epic stuff to remain what they are; mostly stuff people don't run.

  6. #106
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    What about a union of the Shard/Seal/Scroll method and the EN/EH/EE method? Inspired by the items from Cannith Challenges, let epic items have 3 tiers they can be upgraded to. Perhaps make the power scaling a bit more drastic between each tier.

    Running on EN gives you an opportunity to get the epic item's raw, tier 1 form. This is either done by dropping the item directly, or a single "upgrade" item that transforms a heroic item into its epic counterpart.

    Then, running on EH has a chance to drop tier 2 materials. You need multiples of this material, like, 2-3 or whatever seems reasonable to people who want to earn their stripes. The less that is needed, the lower the drop rate. Give them something to grind for. When you have the required items, take them and the epic item to an altar of one kind or another, combine, now you have Tier 2 epic item.

    EE, rinse and repeat. Drops tier 3 materials, either in larger required quantities or even lower drop rates.

    With this proposed method, more casual players will be able to procure epic items within a reasonable time, without too much of a grind. The drop rate could be put low, but shouldn't be as low as current shards/scrolls/seals. Meanwhile, players who want more power can grind on EH/EE to get the appropriate tier materials, and get a feeling of accomplishment when they reach those higher tiers.
    Anything can be explained by drunken wizards.

    "Hey! I got a piece of the +1 Butter Knife of Victory! Ah-oh, wait, wait. It's just a crummy, normal +1 dagger of ghostbane..."

  7. #107
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    I didn't bother to read the whole thread, so sorry if it's already been written by somebody else.

    The best way to handle the obsolescence of the Seal/Shard/Scroll system would be IMHO:

    - To open up the Desert exchange to all the Seal/Shards/Scroll,
    ( so you can exchange any 3 seal for another seal, any 3 shard for another shard and any 3 scroll for another scroll. )
    - To simply remove Scroll, Seal and Shard dropping, but to keep base item dropping for a while.
    - To add updated Epic/Hard/Elite items and to make them drop at a decent rate ( GH rate for example ).
    This should be done in parallel as letting the old items dropping for a while.

    That way people that still want the old Epic Seal/scroll/shard item will be able to get them ( and get the base item if they need to ) while
    putting in place new items that works with the new system of tiered items.
    On G-Land : Flavilandile, Blacklock, Yaelle, Millishande, Larilandile, Gildalinde, Tenalafel, and many other...

  8. #108
    Community Member Henky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flavilandile View Post
    - To add updated Epic/Hard/Elite items and to make them drop at a decent rate ( GH rate for example ).
    That's the main problem. How do you get EE version of Thornlord or Ring of Spell Storing? They drop on wilderness, and if you put more items on the main quests loot tables... They should do the sidequest epic too and put there the items that drop on wilderness.
    Thelanis - Officer of Reinos Olvidados: Henkyh, Neghi, Konokka, Kufei, Bartolomew, Rovinh, Artinata

  9. #109
    Community Member wesclough's Avatar
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    Perhaps only do one epic version of those items (a bit better then they are now as epics) that can be gotten as end rewards from the main quest chain.

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flavilandile View Post
    I didn't bother to read the whole thread, so sorry if it's already been written by somebody else.

    The best way to handle the obsolescence of the Seal/Shard/Scroll system would be IMHO:

    - To open up the Desert exchange to all the Seal/Shards/Scroll,
    ( so you can exchange any 3 seal for another seal, any 3 shard for another shard and any 3 scroll for another scroll. )
    - To simply remove Scroll, Seal and Shard dropping, but to keep base item dropping for a while.
    - To add updated Epic/Hard/Elite items and to make them drop at a decent rate ( GH rate for example ).
    This should be done in parallel as letting the old items dropping for a while.

    That way people that still want the old Epic Seal/scroll/shard item will be able to get them ( and get the base item if they need to ) while
    putting in place new items that works with the new system of tiered items.
    I agree, but I think that would add a tremendous amount of recipe creations for the devs. A 'universal' scroll created out of x amount of scrolls (shards, seals) might be easier, provided it doesn't require a lot of new code. But sure, it's a similar solution.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firepants View Post
    What keeps people comin back to play more and more is the tedium of replaying the same quest infinitely to get one piece of a multi-piece set to make a single under powered item?

    Please explain to me how anything you said is not just the arbitrary babbling of some broken mind hanging precariously over the edge of a fathomless abyss.
    Hello I understood what you quoted to be a reasonable appraisal of how MMO's that aren't dieing actually work, they force some amount of repetition because game makers can not make content fast enough to keep people playing without major repetition of older content. It is NECESSARY because if everyone gets what they want in short order, people don't continue playing the game! We can see this directly in evidence in DDO right now. This seems prima facia to me, and apparently also to most people who don't support the "bound to character on equip" EE loot in the AH. Bare in mind I once was a big supporter of EE loot in the AH but am no longer... as it has clearly lead to quick and easy satiation of desire for loot, and people leaving 2 weeks after updates.

    Characterizing Derana's opinion the way you do with personal attacks is way over the top, and pretty clearly breaking the rules around here (I've gotten brownie awards for much less). But worse than that, your characterization of them is false (they talk about buying stuff off the AH (I.e. for plat) but you stawman that up into real money) and your view of how games operate over the long term (at least when they are Healthy) is very counter-intuitive, contrary to the observed behavour of gamers playing these types of loot driven games. (again I didn't always think this but it's become clear that my old stance was the wrong stance.

    But I'm just a player of online games who has been playing them since 1996-ish (Diablo, UO) what do I know? I've also admited that I used to support this system and was wrong. Why would you take my Word for it? How about we look at a very topical and big name game that is discovering the same thing:

    From Joystiq:
    " The Diablo 3 auction house is being sent to the nether realm on March 18, 2014.

    "It became increasingly clear that despite the benefits of the AH system and the fact that many players around the world use it, it ultimately undermines Diablo's core game play: kill monsters to get cool loot," Blizzard Production Director John Hight writes. "With that in mind, we want to let everyone know that we've decided to remove the gold and real-money auction house system from Diablo 3."


    Do they live in this bizarro universe you accuse others of? Now granted they are going a little overboard, just take the top 20% of gear off their AH's and you'll get 90% of the benefit (get almost everyone to replay the game more) while still having an AH filled with the 90% of the stuff that isn't uber for people to fill out their toons with until they find the uber stuff themselves.
    Last edited by IronClan; 09-18-2013 at 10:45 AM.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  12. #112
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Hello I understood what you quoted to be a reasonable appraisal of how MMO's that aren't dieing actually work, they force some amount of repetition because game makers can not make content fast enough to keep people playing without major repetition of older content. It is NECESSARY because if everyone gets what they want in short order, people don't continue playing the game! We can see this directly in evidence in DDO right now. This seems prima facia to me, and apparently also to most people who don't support the "bound to character on equip" EE loot in the AH. Bare in mind I once was a big supporter of EE loot in the AH but am no longer... as it has clearly lead to quick and easy satiation of desire for loot, and people leaving 2 weeks after updates.

    Characterizing Derana's opinion the way you do with personal attacks is way over the top, and pretty clearly breaking the rules around here (I've gotten brownie awards for much less). But worse than that, your characterization of them is false (they talk about buying stuff off the AH (I.e. for plat) but you stawman that up into real money) and your view of how games operate over the long term (at least when they are Healthy) is very counter-intuitive, contrary to the observed behavour of gamers playing these types of loot driven games. (again I didn't always think this but it's become clear that my old stance was the wrong stance.

    But I'm just a player of online games who has been playing them since 1996-ish (Diablo, UO) what do I know? I've also admited that I used to support this system and was wrong. Why would you take my Word for it? How about we look at a very topical and big name game that is discovering the same thing:

    From Joystiq:
    " The Diablo 3 auction house is being sent to the nether realm on March 18, 2014.

    "It became increasingly clear that despite the benefits of the AH system and the fact that many players around the world use it, it ultimately undermines Diablo's core game play: kill monsters to get cool loot," Blizzard Production Director John Hight writes. "With that in mind, we want to let everyone know that we've decided to remove the gold and real-money auction house system from Diablo 3."


    Do they live in this bizarro universe you accuse others of? Now granted they are going a little overboard, just take the top 20% of gear off their AH's and you'll get 90% of the benefit (get almost everyone to replay the game more) while still having an AH filled with the 90% of the stuff that isn't uber for people to fill out their toons with until they find the uber stuff themselves.
    Well, the console version doesn't have a RMAH and it has been MUCH better received. There was a gold dupe that ruined the economy; you can buy a billion gold for just a few dollars, and that's enough to gear up a toon fairly well. I think that is the main reason they are removing it.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firepants View Post
    So, in your imaginary universe, people show up, blow a wad of cash on the game to get best in slot items for toons they, presumably, bought somewhere? I dunno, anyway, so these people drop a few hundred bucks or more and then go "eff it" and quit.
    BTW not that the person you quoted said anything cash, but just so you know how wrong your universe is:

    Yes people buy stuff and satiate their desire for that thing by doing so all the time. You know no one with a pool table they never use? Or a fast car that sits under a cover in the garage and is never driven? Speaking of Diablo III I bought it, capped one character, bought all the "end game" gear for that character on the AH with gold made from selling the gear I didn't need, and stopped playing.

    I paid $60 and played two weeks, so yes, people blow a wad of cash and then lose interest... in fact this is commonplace in the universe of the real world
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    Well, the console version doesn't have a RMAH and it has been MUCH better received. There was a gold dupe that ruined the economy; you can buy a billion gold for just a few dollars, and that's enough to gear up a toon fairly well. I think that is the main reason they are removing it.
    Having played the game let me tell you it is entirely unnecessary to ever buy gold, a few weeks of playing with an hour or so of AH browsing a day and you sold/bought your way to uber loot in short order.

    If the main reason was the gold dupe, they simply would have laddered. Nothing as extreme as removing the AH entirely would be necessary.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

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