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  1. #1
    Community Member Deslen's Avatar
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    Default Lag - Are the programmers incompetent, or is fixing it not profitable enough?

    Now, before I ask my real question, I wish to address the inevitable slew of players who will say "It must be your computer." No, it is not my computer. I can run Starcraft II at max resolution and quality without a single second of lag. I'm not talking about computer lag. If you do not play on a busy server during peak hours, kindly disregard this thread.

    I'm talking about running a quest, then failing because of one thing and one thing alone - lag.

    Right now, if I understand correctly, it's Crystal Cove. I decided to run DQ 1. Get up there with a charged blitz, ready to go. Step in on EH, kill the first room, get a five stack of blitz... and proceed to sit there until blitz runs out, and still not able to move. (100+ fps the whole time.)

    An earlier example... decide to run The Pit for Bravery Bonus with four people. Play splendidly well, no deaths, no issues, and get to the end fight with ten minutes to spare on buffs. Head to the final lever... and... lag. While we sit there for ten minutes, unable to move, casters pelt us with spells. They're not affected by lag, so by the time lag wears off, we're all dead.

    So, as per the title of this post, I have to ask, because I am genuinely curious...

    Are Turbine's programmers incompetent, or is the effort needed to fix these problems simply not worth the dollar amount it would cost in man hours and effort to fix it?

  2. #2
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    The current tranche of developers don't design lag into quests if that's what you're asking.

    There will be a significant number of contributing factors that may include insufficient investment in proper infrastructure and you might argue about legacy code (although I give that less time of day because at some point in time it's not legacy code which you're not responsible for, it become adopted code that you are responsible for improving if you see a problem with it).

    The many faceted nature of the beast means that lag is not entirely down to bad programming (although the old system where Cannith deconstructing ingredients being put into your inventory/ingredients bag 1 at a time when you had just purchased 1000 would be a good example of amateur and clueless design).

  3. #3
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    This was explained a couple weeks ago by a dev.

    Lag is caused by the fact Kobold's still hate you.

    In retribution for WW, Kobold Union members decided to they would periodically sabotage the work of the non-union mice that power the network switches. This is the source of the lag you are experiencing, and since only the switching equipment is impacted, the server based enemies can continue to attack during the period where you are cut off. When the Kobold Union anti-scab work action ends, you get back in to find out you were killed.

    See, makes perfect sense, YOU are the cause of your own lag because of what you did in the Harbor.

  4. #4
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    In almost 2 years of playing almost every day, I have experienced actual frozen in place for minutes at a time lag only a handful of times. When it happened to everybody in the group and caused a wipe. Once was in a crucible on Orien about a year ago. The other time was in a dragon run during mabar. I do sometimes see it happen to other players, but i am still able to move around fine while it is.

    I don't know what causes this, and i know it sucks for those people that it happens to frequently. My albatross is that i have a poor onboard video card which frequently produces low frame rates, even on the lowest graphics settings. When i first went to forgotten realms, i had to go into options and turn the option called frills completely off. The waving grass crunched my computer to a complete, unplayable standstill.

    I have had very brief lag spikes occasionally, but usually only for a few seconds. Again, these are experienced by the entire group i was with.

    Another thing i've noticed is that i am almost always able to move after zoning before most people.

    I have a 1mb dsl connection. The cheapest available.

  5. #5
    Community Member Wanesa's Avatar
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    Lags due bugged monster AI should be fixed in next update because whole AI has been rewritten. This was stated by devs in some forum thread

    Thelanis: Shewind the Airbender (Sorc20/Epic5 -> Bard20/Epic8 -> Rog20/Epic8/Epic2 -> Harper_FvS20/Epic4 -> Art19), Azaxe (Rog18/Wiz2 -> Sorc20/Epic6)

  6. #6
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    This was explained a couple weeks ago by a dev.

    Lag is caused by the fact Kobold's still hate you.

    In retribution for WW, Kobold Union members decided to they would periodically sabotage the work of the non-union mice that power the network switches. This is the source of the lag you are experiencing, and since only the switching equipment is impacted, the server based enemies can continue to attack during the period where you are cut off. When the Kobold Union anti-scab work action ends, you get back in to find out you were killed.

    See, makes perfect sense, YOU are the cause of your own lag because of what you did in the Harbor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    It was causing server-crippling lag due to an issue with how much kobolds hate boxes.
    I'm going to slaughter 200 of them, revenge is mine.

  7. #7
    Community Member -Zephyr-'s Avatar
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    Freezing lag like that is usually caused by one of your party members.
    When one party member experiences a memory issue (due to memory leak when swiching chars or multiboxing, or ...) or simply has a bad enough connection, the whole instance may seem frozen to other party members as well because the server has always been waiting on slow party members (and there's lag when someone DCs weirdly too, especially in raids, some guildies of mine think it's some sort of programmed anti-exploit lag).
    So, when experiencing freezes like that, tell the guy that had been complaining the most about lag the entire quest to disconnect, and reload the game. If it's you, then do it. The other party members will see the freeze disappear as soon as that player is logged off (and freeze again if he reconnects without having reloaded the game).

    Of all the freezes I've experienced in the years I've been playing, I think 80% of them were due to another player. That's when only your instance seems to be frozen. Server-wide freezes happen, but they're not that common.
    Owy Evoker FvS / Praledric Completionist Qstaff Rogue/Monk/Druid / Laraeph DC Wizard / Laraelph AA Monk/Ranger/Pally / Gaenry Shiradi Sorc/FvS/Wiz / Reasis SWF Pally & numerous others
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  8. #8
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Zephyr- View Post
    Of all the freezes I've experienced in the years I've been playing, I think 80% of them were due to another player. That's when only your instance seems to be frozen. Server-wide freezes happen, but they're not that common.
    If one player isn't communicating with the server like the player should be, the server should not be "lagging" aka "penalizing" other players. That is a coding issue, however, unlike the op thinking it is as easy as hex coding a value of red for text, how to handle those timing situations is not something I'd want to be responsible for designing.

  9. #9
    Community Member ushram's Avatar
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    I can honestly say that out of my many years of playing this game, I have only had a lag freeze that was over 30 secs one time, just once, on a Last Stand epic run (that was only a min or two.)

    I think the OP is exaggerating or has EXTREMELY bad luck. Granted, I always shortman quests and raids with friends and guildmates. But I have certainly never seen anything as long or as often as the OP. My game time is on avg 3 to 6 hours a day, so I would think I would see this often if it was such a big problem.

    Edit: I still do see lag while umd or clicking on hires or pets to do an action though, but that is only a sec or two.
    Last edited by ushram; 08-01-2013 at 01:45 AM.
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  10. #10
    Community Member -Zephyr-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    If one player isn't communicating with the server like the player should be, the server should not be "lagging" aka "penalizing" other players. That is a coding issue, however, unlike the op thinking it is as easy as hex coding a value of red for text, how to handle those timing situations is not something I'd want to be responsible for designing.

    Of course it is DDO's code fault.
    I was merely implicetly pointing out a work-around... As bad as it sounds, don't play with laggy players. Restart your client often. Ask people to restart theirs before big EE raids.

    You may think that letting that lagging guy just pike won't hurt you. Well, he may actually lag you.

    I have a few guild mates who always have a bad connec. I've experienced that instance freeze quite a bit. Sometimes they'll say sorry and log, and lag dissapears entierly (well, right after the spike that happens right before they DC). Sometimes they won't and we'll deal with lag, but that's ok because they're guildies.
    Owy Evoker FvS / Praledric Completionist Qstaff Rogue/Monk/Druid / Laraeph DC Wizard / Laraelph AA Monk/Ranger/Pally / Gaenry Shiradi Sorc/FvS/Wiz / Reasis SWF Pally & numerous others
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  11. #11
    Community Member Wanesa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Zephyr- View Post
    Freezing lag like that is usually caused by one of your party members.
    This is clear speculation. And also it is not true. I tested this a few days ago disconnecting the network cable during playing in the party with my friend. Game did not freeze on his computer.

    Game uses UDP protocol. It is message oriented asynchronous protocol. If your computer stop sending messages, server assumes, that you are not moving, doing nothing or being afk. There is no reason to block other players.

    There is nothing in the game, which requires to wait for response from the client. In server-client oriented system on UDP, it is always client which waits for server response. Server never waits, it can only time to time repeat unacknowledged packets, but repeating doesn't cost any time (actually it is handled by network interface, not by CPU).

    Thelanis: Shewind the Airbender (Sorc20/Epic5 -> Bard20/Epic8 -> Rog20/Epic8/Epic2 -> Harper_FvS20/Epic4 -> Art19), Azaxe (Rog18/Wiz2 -> Sorc20/Epic6)

  12. #12
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    I get the same weird full party lag from time to time where the whole group gets stuck and cant move permanently, apart from rubber banding around until we all quit the game after being long dead. And on trying to relog, everyone gets stuck on 'clearing up old connection' unless they know the trick to fix it by logging into a character on a different server.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanesa View Post
    This is clear speculation. And also it is not true. I tested this a few days ago disconnecting the network cable during playing in the party with my friend. Game did not freeze on his computer.

    Game uses UDP protocol. It is message oriented asynchronous protocol. If your computer stop sending messages, server assumes, that you are not moving, doing nothing or being afk. There is no reason to block other players.
    So far so good...

    There is nothing in the game, which requires to wait for response from the client.
    Healing is an exception to this, there may be others.

    When I through a heal my client is waiting from a response from the other client about the value of the heal. At least that's how it would appear since I think most healers have experienced "healing lag" when healing a big group with green numbers flying everywhere.

  14. #14
    Community Member Wanesa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citzen_Gkar View Post
    So far so good...



    Healing is an exception to this, there may be others.

    When I through a heal my client is waiting from a response from the other client about the value of the heal. At least that's how it would appear since I think most healers have experienced "healing lag" when healing a big group with green numbers flying everywhere.
    Nonsense. Healing is calculated on the server complete. Server has all values in his database. Healing lag can be caused by calculating healing on the server (not waiting on the client). Don't forget, that server is doing a lot of calculations at the same time. it may look as simple task, but it is not. For example mass healing need to track position of all players and calculate collisions with all objects in the scene, because you cannot heal toons blocked by an obstacle. At the same time, server calculates collisions of kobolds in hundreds instances of the Crystal Cove.

    DDO cannot depend on client data, because they can be hacked. This is very big issue of The Neverwinter Online, where some calculations are made by clients. And there are already trainers and hacking tools to hack these calculations and benefit from them. For example, you can make self immortal by interfere into the calculation of the damage made on you (you can simply zero incoming damage).

    All calculations must be done on the server. Clients are only viewers. They are only sending actions to the server and showing (visualizing) results of the all calculations. They can only make some sort of speculative calculations to cover the network latency. For example, client can start to walk when you press 'W' and calculate collisions with all obstacles in your way, but the final word has the server, which can adjust the path of your walk.

    Back to the healing. Yeah, you can be right in this: the lag can be caused by graphical effects delaying all clients due overloading their graphic cards with a lot of operations at same time. But this an another case.
    Last edited by Wanesa; 08-01-2013 at 09:01 AM.

    Thelanis: Shewind the Airbender (Sorc20/Epic5 -> Bard20/Epic8 -> Rog20/Epic8/Epic2 -> Harper_FvS20/Epic4 -> Art19), Azaxe (Rog18/Wiz2 -> Sorc20/Epic6)

  15. #15
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Lag happens. So do forum trolls. Please don't rage-post, OP. It doesn't help.

  16. #16
    Community Member Scarence's Avatar
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    Jeeze was actually enjoying this conversation then this troll comes along. I find that I have to reload the game every few months and everything clears up especially after updates and maintenance. Is there a way to clear up any of this on a regular basis so I do not have to reload the game on a regular basis? The lag can be annoying especially when it usually shows at the most inconvenient times.

  17. #17
    Community Manager Cordovan's Avatar
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    Insulting the development team in the title of a thread is not a good way to express a point, and will get the thread closed.
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