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  1. #1
    Community Member Ziindarax's Avatar
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    Default Sword and Board - Viable Defenses, but badly in need of greater hate-generation/DPS

    Let's face it, Stalwart and Sacred Defenders are great at what they do; with sufficient investment in their AC, they can stand up to punishing monsters (like griffons, whom I'd found out last night were quite capable of shredding anyone else to pieces... on epic NORMAL). The problem is, even with their current buffs to incite, they are incapable of grabbing and maintaining a monster's agro.

    The reason for this is because ALL of the other players in the parties I run with are dishing out greater damage, and thus generating more hate, than what my tank builds are capable of. Put quite simply, their melee DPS is garbage, even with doublestrike considered. That all being said, their incite should be an aura that generates 300% agro with another 150% agro being generated per hit, and these tanks should have one of their stance effects granting them additional damage per blow (thinking 20%/35%/50% more damage per hit) when wielding a shield - Half that bonus if they're fighting without a shield (and only for main-hand weapons/handwraps).

    Currently, the best weapon for Sword and Board tanks is Nightmare from the Lolth raid given it's high-utility abilities (specifically, the Negative Levels that proc on enemies).
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

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  2. #2
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Comparing evasion + Dodge builds . . . I wouldn't even say their defense is that viable.

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    tanks with viable dps? that will be the fn day.


    and honestly i dont think tanks need more threat. tanks alreayd have significant threat. the problem is that even with %1500+ threat, the damage done is just far below par.

    i had suggested that they attach some damage shields and/or reactive procs to some of the enhancements in the tanking tress. that way, a tank who properly maintains aggro is awarded for their aggro management with extra dps to every thing targeting them

    taking it a step further, you could actually have the enhancements attached to off hand slot and armor. with the effectiveness being scaled based off the type of shield and armor you are wearing and the number of opponents targeting you.
    Last edited by Alcedes; 07-31-2013 at 01:55 PM.

  4. #4
    Community Member Ziindarax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcedes View Post
    tanks with viable dps? that will be the fn day.


    and honestly i dont think tanks need more threat. tanks alreayd have significant threat. the problem is that even with %1500+ threat, the damage done is just far below par.

    i had suggested that they attach some damage shields and/or reactive procs to some of the enhancements in the tanking tress. that way, a tank who properly maintains aggro is awarded for their aggro management with extra dps to every thing targeting them

    taking it a step further, you could actually have the enhancements attached to off hand slot and armor. with the effectiveness being scaled based off the type of shield and armor you are wearing and the number of opponents targeting you.

    Neverwinter uses a mechanic similar to what you're suggesting with one of it's enhancement-like abilities for the Guardian fighter. The way it works is, you taunt an enemy to engage you, and only you, and for a duration both opponents gain a damage boost against each other.

    Another thing that worked in the Guardian Fighter's favor was that he/she could eventually attack from behind the shield, and you did more damage to the opponent when attacking from behind the shield than using regular attacks. Tanks in DDO should have something like that in place.


    Currently, the only "high" DPS tanks out there (even with current enhancement pass) are the divine caster tank mixes. Specifically, the AC/PRR tank I am using on Lamannia right now is actually a Morninglord Cleric 14/6 Paladin (6 paladin for the defensive stance); his Searing light SLA occasionally crits for about 300 points of damage using only 4 mana per cast (with meta's included), while the Angel's Avenging light SLA frequently crits for 700 damage... Yes, proper casters can achieve much greater DPS with these SLA's than what my tank is pulling, but his Sun Bolt and Sunbeam spells have a high critical chance, and crit almost every other cast just about (and both do about 1k damage usually.


    As for why I am asking for more hate generation, my tests on Lamannia have revealed that inspite of intimidation generating hate even on a failed attempt, with all the buffs (and no subtle casting going on to reduce threat btw), I frequently struggle to hold agro on account of the Shiradi casters, or the high DPS builds. Sometimes, I can grab and maintain the agro, but most of the time, it's my party members getting it, I've noticed.
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

    Fernian Summer Carnival

  5. #5
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax View Post
    Currently, the only "high" DPS tanks out there (even with current enhancement pass) are the divine caster tank mixes. Specifically, the AC/PRR tank I am using on Lamannia right now is actually a Morninglord Cleric 14/6 Paladin (6 paladin for the defensive stance); his Searing light SLA occasionally crits for about 300 points of damage using only 4 mana per cast (with meta's included), while the Angel's Avenging light SLA frequently crits for 700 damage... Yes, proper casters can achieve much greater DPS with these SLA's than what my tank is pulling, but his Sun Bolt and Sunbeam spells have a high critical chance, and crit almost every other cast just about (and both do about 1k damage usually.
    I'm sorry, but that's not even close to what I'd even call "above terrible" DPS.

    Real S&B tanks on live are fine, the issue is going to be when half the melees out there are in earth-stance pumping out 70% more threat.

  6. #6
    Community Member Ziindarax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I'm sorry, but that's not even close to what I'd even call "above terrible" DPS.

    Real S&B tanks on live are fine, the issue is going to be when half the melees out there are in earth-stance pumping out 70% more threat.
    That's why Sword and Board tanks NEED more threat generation - tank PRE's need to be the BEST at generating threat and sustaining agro. Also, they've removed Shintao's Defensive Strike enhancement from the enhancement tree because it was considered too powerful (now they've got some kind of mild-damage boosting enhancement replacing it).

    As for your remark about "not even close" to what you'd call "above terrible DPS", would you care to elaborate (in numbers) what would constitute "good" DPS for a tank?
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

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    They could try to improve shield feats. Like A Shield Bash that Trips, or another that Stuns with added bonus to DC. Does improved critical bludgeon apply to shield strikes?

  8. #8
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax View Post
    That's why Sword and Board tanks NEED more threat generation - tank PRE's need to be the BEST at generating threat and sustaining agro. Also, they've removed Shintao's Defensive Strike enhancement from the enhancement tree because it was considered too powerful (now they've got some kind of mild-damage boosting enhancement replacing it).
    Defensive strikes is gone but Earth-stance remains, you can get a hell of a lot more threat on one of those hybrid builds. A splash here, a splash there, next thing you know S&B is done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax View Post
    As for your remark about "not even close" to what you'd call "above terrible DPS", would you care to elaborate (in numbers) what would constitute "good" DPS for a tank?
    "Enough to always hold aggro." That's the best answer I can give you.

    The situation is now there are some really high-threat, decent-DPS options available in splash-builds. It's gonna be a heck of a lot more than a searing light SLA.

  9. #9
    Community Member Ziindarax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Defensive strikes is gone but Earth-stance remains, you can get a hell of a lot more threat on one of those hybrid builds. A splash here, a splash there, next thing you know S&B is done.



    "Enough to always hold aggro." That's the best answer I can give you.

    The situation is now there are some really high-threat, decent-DPS options available in splash-builds. It's gonna be a heck of a lot more than a searing light SLA.
    Which leads to the point of: what's the point of S&B if you can get better PRR/AC and other defenses (while maintaining reasonable DPS) when you can use splashes to achieve the same effect?
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubbinns View Post
    They could try to improve shield feats. Like A Shield Bash that Trips, or another that Stuns with added bonus to DC. Does improved critical bludgeon apply to shield strikes?
    paladins are already so feat starved that trying to stuff that into their build would be nearly impossible. for fighters sure. but definitely not paladins.

    and more threat isnt going to do us a lot of good (unless it is quite substantial) where as even a small boost to dps would make a tremendous impact on threat generated

    i do not believe that a tank should be able to deal any where near the dps of a dps build...but the dps has to be enough for the huge threat bonuses to do what they are intended to do.

  11. #11
    Community Member Ziindarax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Defensive strikes is gone but Earth-stance remains, you can get a hell of a lot more threat on one of those hybrid builds. A splash here, a splash there, next thing you know S&B is done.



    "Enough to always hold aggro." That's the best answer I can give you.

    The situation is now there are some really high-threat, decent-DPS options available in splash-builds. It's gonna be a heck of a lot more than a searing light SLA.
    Also, exactly what KIND of splashes are we talking about here that would finish off S&B?
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

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  12. #12
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax View Post
    Which leads to the point of: what's the point of S&B if you can get better PRR/AC and other defenses (while maintaining reasonable DPS) when you can use splashes to achieve the same effect?
    To be fair S&B still gets more AC . . . but that's about as useful as teets on a bulls in the modern EE game. I'm still looking at being able to get 100ish AC on hybird TWFer

    An evasion build stalwart will still get SLIGHTLY more PRR but it's less than 5% damage mitigation.

    The real issue is threat, the hybrid might put out double.

  13. #13
    Community Member Meat-Head's Avatar
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    I agree with the need for MOAR hate. Maybe just increase current bonuses by 50% or so. The DPS builds are pumping out crazy high dmg.

    EDIT: Upon further thought, the hate multipliers need better dmg to multiply. Tanks need better DPS. Then you don't need to bump hate bonuses. Tanks should have 1/4 to 1/3 of max dps while maintaining their defenses. (imo)



    HOWEVER, I also think it's incumbent on DPSers to start working in Diversion/threat reduction into their gear sets. Remember when tanking used to be "hey gimmie a sec to establish aggro" and "guys make sure you're threat gear is off" etc..? Well, those days are back.
    Last edited by Meat-Head; 07-31-2013 at 02:54 PM. Reason: I was wrong...
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    First, Meat-Head is exactly correct...

  14. #14
    Community Member Ziindarax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcedes View Post
    paladins are already so feat starved that trying to stuff that into their build would be nearly impossible. for fighters sure. but definitely not paladins.

    and more threat isnt going to do us a lot of good (unless it is quite substantial) where as even a small boost to dps would make a tremendous impact.

    i do not believe that tank should be able to deal any where near the dps of a dps class...but the dps has to be enough for the huge threat bonuses to do what they are intended to do.
    Precisely.

    If tanks can keep mob agro off of everyone else, self-healing options become more viable as damage in-take by non-tanks is minimal, and PRR eats up huge chunks of damage. Some extra damage would go a long way to making tanks able to keep the garbage off of everyone else... Especially Shiradi casters who seem to generate extreme amounts of hate (to the point that even a well-builts intimi-tank with all the hate-generation goodies they can get their hands on fails to maintain agro off of the Shiradi caster).
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

    Fernian Summer Carnival

  15. #15
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax View Post
    Also, exactly what KIND of splashes are we talking about here that would finish off S&B?
    I lamania TR'd mine into a fighter 12/ranger 6/Monk 2. In full DPS mode the damage is looking great, in tanky mode the defense is slighty worse than the same toon when it was S&B but puts out a bunch more threat and the damage is still decent.

    Would it finish off? I'm not sure but we've just begun to scratch the munchkin-surface on the unintended synergies of the splash builds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meat-Head View Post
    I agree with the need for MOAR hate. Maybe just increase current bonuses by 50% or so. The DPS builds are pumping out crazy high dmg..
    50% more threat is not going to be enough. the threat generation is ample. and by giving tanks the ability to achieve in excess of 1500% bonuses to threat, they have pigeonholed themselves into not being able to easily allow for more dps from tanks.

    to be reasonable, in order to pull aggro off a tank who is doing his job you already have to do around 12x more damage than him. Which most skilled and geared DPS can do.

    the thing is, if they allow a tank to do even 1/5 the the damage of a dps build, his threat will now FAR out pace any dps class making tanking and aggro control trivial at best.


    Solution? S&B needs LESS threat, but more DPS.

  17. #17
    Community Member Meat-Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcedes View Post
    50% more threat is not going to be enough. the threat generation is ample. and by giving tanks the ability to achieve in excess of 1500% bonuses to threat, they have pigeonholed themselves into not being able to easily allow for more dps from tanks.

    to be reasonable, in order to pull aggro off a tank who is doing his job you already have to do around 12x more damage than him. Which most skilled and geared DPS can do.

    the thing is, if they allow a tank to do even 1/5 the the damage of a dps build, his threat will now FAR out pace any dps class making tanking and aggro control trivial at best.


    Solution? S&B needs LESS threat, but more DPS.


    You know what? I totally agree with you. In order to multiply the hate, you need to have a base DPS worthy of multiplying. You're totally right. Tanks should be doing about 1/3 of the dmg of high DPSers I think. 1/4 at the least. So you're right, tanks need more DPS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meat-Head View Post
    You know what? I totally agree with you. In order to multiply the hate, you need to have a base DPS worthy of multiplying. You're totally right. Tanks should be doing about 1/3 of the dmg of high DPSers I think. 1/4 at the least. So you're right, tanks need more DPS.
    and somewhere between 300-600% incite boosts.

    probably sustainable 300-400% with short duration bursts of like 500-600% (for when aggro loss happens, intim for snap aggro followed by short duration buff to re-establish threshold for dps to start back up)

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    Default My Thought

    In addition to perfect 2-handed and 2-weapon fighting, add a feat for perfect s&b (or something similar) - increased threat, AC, damage, etc.

  20. #20
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax View Post
    Which leads to the point of: what's the point of S&B if you can get better PRR/AC and other defenses (while maintaining reasonable DPS) when you can use splashes to achieve the same effect?
    When I was re-working my pally tank (lvl 18) trying to achieve parity with what I had, I ended up with a tank that had equivalent AC, but firkin INSANE PRR than the old build - something like 100+ and better (can't remember the exact numbers, but it was well above 100). So, what these builds that you are describing?

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