# Thread: Epic Feats, Levels 26-28

1. Originally Posted by Vargouille
Doubleshot converts rate of 1/3 for repeating crossbows. (Crossbow users can theoretically benefit from having 300% Doubleshot.)
Are you saying that non-repeating crossbows have an increased chance for doubleshot? I'm not sure I understand your comment....

2. Originally Posted by Vargouille
Doubleshot converts rate of 1/3 for repeating crossbows. (Crossbow users can theoretically benefit from having 300% Doubleshot.)
Said it before and will say it again= Nerfing repeaters does not make other crossbows more viable.

If you want to buff slow crossbows than give them DOUBLE benefit from doubleshot. Crossbow users are the only range that will care about doubleshot anyway since manyshot and 10k stars locks you out.

3. Originally Posted by Vargouille
Doubleshot converts rate of 1/3 for repeating crossbows. (Crossbow users can theoretically benefit from having 300% Doubleshot.)
really theoretically, just 1/3 for repeating is a bit lower than basic chance. let's see calculating.

n% * one shot = n%
(n%/3) * triple shot chance by repeating = m% < n%(for 20%, real value for repeating is 18.6%. It's more bad at higher value.)

I'm not sure you can understand this well. I'd like to say the problem is found at higher value to let you know the repeating chance of doubleshot getting lower critically.

Let's understand more easy.
We have 10% doubleshot, so you have 3.3% doubleshot for repeating, if calculated by just 1/3.
but shooting three bolts doesn't mean you have 10% for three bolts total, It's 3.3% for three bolts each
so this is same to [1-(3.3%*3.3%*3.3%)], not [3.3%*3], then It's not totally 10% really.
This is clearer at higher doubleshot. you're losing your chance if higher.

* How to solve this,
Let's define Divalue, BaseDoubleshot, RepeatingDoubleshot

Divalue = 3 - BaseDoubleshot
RepeatingDoubleshot = Divalue / BaseDoubleshot
.`.BaseDoubleshot =approximating= RepeatingDoubleshot = 1-((1-Divalue / BaseDoubleshot)^3)

BaseDoubleshot is used for all ranged weapons except for repeating,
RepeatingDoubleshot for repeating only.
It's approximating I'm sure.

but my formula has still same problem, but better than the way 1/3 I think, especially at low chances... and I don't think players would get that much higher value.

4. Originally Posted by Targal
really theoretically, just 1/3 for repeating is a bit lower than basic chance. let's see calculating.
Yes, the chance to get a single extra shot over three shots is lower than the x3 chance with one shot, other things considered. This partially offsets the great advantage repeaters already have when taking advantage of things like on-hit effects (or on-crit, on-vorpal, etc.)

Chance to get an extra shot, with 30% Doubleshot:
70% chance to NOT get extra shot for non-repeaters (30% chance for 1+ extra shot)
10% on three shots is about 72.9% chance (0.9*0.9*0.9) to not have any extra shots (27.1% chance for 1+ extra shot)
Of course, that doesn't take into account the fact that you could get an extra shot more than once. That's up to three (aka: double the number of shots), though with the base 30% Doubleshot on a repeater that is in fact only one in a thousand chance.

Put another way, the repeater is mathematically expected to produce 1.1 hits per attack. Three attacks produces 3.3 hits on average for repeaters. That has to be compared to producing 1.3 attacks for a non-repeater, and figuring out how long that attack takes. At this point we have to start getting more complicated and presume on how fast each of these weapons is attacking in a cycle, and we'd have to break down Throwing Weapons vs. Bows vs. Great Crossbows vs. Repeaters. Then look at some other statistics and options that affect this, such as base damage, ranged alacrity, critical profiles on different weapons and alterations from enhancements. Then we have to consider different levels for the characters, and what buffs they may have in different situations and decide what is reasonable, what is maximal, and what is appropriate.

I leave this as an exercise for the readers at this time.

5. Originally Posted by Vargouille
I leave this as an exercise for the readers at this time.
Thanks for you response and candor, and humor.

6. Originally Posted by Vargouille
Yes, the chance to get a single extra shot over three shots is lower than the x3 chance with one shot, other things considered. This partially offsets the great advantage repeaters already have when taking advantage of things like on-hit effects (or on-crit, on-vorpal, etc.)

Chance to get an extra shot, with 30% Doubleshot:
70% chance to NOT get extra shot for non-repeaters (30% chance for 1+ extra shot)
10% on three shots is about 72.9% chance (0.9*0.9*0.9) to not have any extra shots (27.1% chance for 1+ extra shot)
Of course, that doesn't take into account the fact that you could get an extra shot more than once. That's up to three (aka: double the number of shots), though with the base 30% Doubleshot on a repeater that is in fact only one in a thousand chance.

Put another way, the repeater is mathematically expected to produce 1.1 hits per attack. Three attacks produces 3.3 hits on average for repeaters. That has to be compared to producing 1.3 attacks for a non-repeater, and figuring out how long that attack takes. At this point we have to start getting more complicated and presume on how fast each of these weapons is attacking in a cycle, and we'd have to break down Throwing Weapons vs. Bows vs. Great Crossbows vs. Repeaters. Then look at some other statistics and options that affect this, such as base damage, ranged alacrity, critical profiles on different weapons and alterations from enhancements. Then we have to consider different levels for the characters, and what buffs they may have in different situations and decide what is reasonable, what is maximal, and what is appropriate.

I leave this as an exercise for the readers at this time.
So you are saying that for non repeaters for 30% doubleshot the regular attack gets 1.3 arrows and then if there is doubleshot that gets 1.3 arrows as well and so on down the line. I did not realize that doubleshot works that way. So 30% doubleshot is really 100% +30%+ 15% +7.5% +3.75% + 1.375% +... = ~158%. If that is the case then level 20 ranger is closer to monk 10k then I previously thought.

So you are saying that for non repeaters for 30% doubleshot the regular attack gets 1.3 arrows and then if there is doubleshot that gets 1.3 arrows as well and so on down the line. I did not realize that doubleshot works that way. So 30% doubleshot is really 100% +30%+ 15% +7.5% +3.75% + 1.375% +... = ~158%. If that is the case then level 20 ranger is closer to monk 10k then I previously thought.
That isn't what he said at all.

8. Originally Posted by Vargouille
Yes, the chance to get a single extra shot over three shots is lower than the x3 chance with one shot, other things considered. This partially offsets the great advantage repeaters already have when taking advantage of things like on-hit effects (or on-crit, on-vorpal, etc.)

Chance to get an extra shot, with 30% Doubleshot:
70% chance to NOT get extra shot for non-repeaters (30% chance for 1+ extra shot)
10% on three shots is about 72.9% chance (0.9*0.9*0.9) to not have any extra shots (27.1% chance for 1+ extra shot)
Of course, that doesn't take into account the fact that you could get an extra shot more than once. That's up to three (aka: double the number of shots), though with the base 30% Doubleshot on a repeater that is in fact only one in a thousand chance.

Put another way, the repeater is mathematically expected to produce 1.1 hits per attack. Three attacks produces 3.3 hits on average for repeaters. That has to be compared to producing 1.3 attacks for a non-repeater, and figuring out how long that attack takes. At this point we have to start getting more complicated and presume on how fast each of these weapons is attacking in a cycle, and we'd have to break down Throwing Weapons vs. Bows vs. Great Crossbows vs. Repeaters. Then look at some other statistics and options that affect this, such as base damage, ranged alacrity, critical profiles on different weapons and alterations from enhancements. Then we have to consider different levels for the characters, and what buffs they may have in different situations and decide what is reasonable, what is maximal, and what is appropriate.

I leave this as an exercise for the readers at this time.
Your words and math makes my brain hurt this early.

9. Originally Posted by Vargouille
Put another way, the repeater is mathematically expected to produce 1.1 hits per attack. Three attacks produces 3.3 hits on average for repeaters. That has to be compared to producing 1.3 attacks for a non-repeater, and figuring out how long that attack takes. At this point we have to start getting more complicated and presume on how fast each of these weapons is attacking in a cycle, and we'd have to break down Throwing Weapons vs. Bows vs. Great Crossbows vs. Repeaters. Then look at some other statistics and options that affect this, such as base damage, ranged alacrity, critical profiles on different weapons and alterations from enhancements. Then we have to consider different levels for the characters, and what buffs they may have in different situations and decide what is reasonable, what is maximal, and what is appropriate.

I leave this as an exercise for the readers at this time.
(I'm ignoring throwers/xbows because, lets face it, those are not viably realized weapon choices in the game right now)

Eh, most of that factors out, I've found...I ran a lot of numbers, while I was locked out of closed beta, on repeaters vs bows with the new enhancements. Basically, you can work with the assumption that Repeaters and Bows give you the same amount of shots fired over two minutes if the archer uses Manyshot:

Repeaters fire 3 shots, bows fire about 2 shots in the same timeframe, so repeaters fire 150% as many shots. But Manyshot is up for 20 secs/120, and gives 3 extra shots per attack, so that's a 300%*(20/120)=50% bonus, which puts Manyshot+Bows at the same 150%. Same averaged ROF cancels out a lot of those variables.
*(caveat: Monkchers obviously can sustain a superior ROF to anyone else, cycling 10KS+Manyshot)

So you really can compare repeaters and bows, apples to apples. The only difference is base weapon damage and crit profile. With all the +[w]/+crit mult/crit threat you can get by endgame, though, from enhancements/EDs/buffs/Epic weapons/etc. - and the special endgame weapons with higher base damage, Pinion and Needle and such - the differences between bows and repeaters becomes less and less pronounced. It becomes more and more about your build than your equipment.

Practically, repeaters have an advantage because they basically normalize Manyshot over all their attacks - so you don't have time "wasted" by having Manyshot up while you're not fighting. A skilled archer could focus their DPS using Manyshot when they really need it, but have lower average damage against trash. A Repeater is going to have better average damage, but less upside against bosses etc. That's really the ultimate takeaway difference, I think the math shows. Good steady ranged DPS vs incredible burst DPS.

10. Originally Posted by Vargouille
Yes, the chance to get a single extra shot over three shots is lower than the x3 chance with one shot, other things considered. This partially offsets the great advantage repeaters already have when taking advantage of things like on-hit effects (or on-crit, on-vorpal, etc.)

Chance to get an extra shot, with 30% Doubleshot:
70% chance to NOT get extra shot for non-repeaters (30% chance for 1+ extra shot)
10% on three shots is about 72.9% chance (0.9*0.9*0.9) to not have any extra shots (27.1% chance for 1+ extra shot)
Of course, that doesn't take into account the fact that you could get an extra shot more than once. That's up to three (aka: double the number of shots), though with the base 30% Doubleshot on a repeater that is in fact only one in a thousand chance.

Put another way, the repeater is mathematically expected to produce 1.1 hits per attack. Three attacks produces 3.3 hits on average for repeaters. That has to be compared to producing 1.3 attacks for a non-repeater, and figuring out how long that attack takes. At this point we have to start getting more complicated and presume on how fast each of these weapons is attacking in a cycle, and we'd have to break down Throwing Weapons vs. Bows vs. Great Crossbows vs. Repeaters. Then look at some other statistics and options that affect this, such as base damage, ranged alacrity, critical profiles on different weapons and alterations from enhancements. Then we have to consider different levels for the characters, and what buffs they may have in different situations and decide what is reasonable, what is maximal, and what is appropriate.

I leave this as an exercise for the readers at this time.
Basic logic is as follows...

IF repeaters have the same damage PER HIT as a bow (the real weapon choice to compare them too...not the other gimped ranged options that no one in their right mind uses) THEN for a 1/3 double shot chance to equal comparable DPS boost the rate of fire of bows would have to 1/3 the rate of fire of repeaters.

I would say that bow damage per hit was always higher then repeater damage per hit due to strength modifiers being higher then intelligence modifiers and SLAYING arrows. New enhancements chance the second thing...but they also give some more juice to bow users also so bow damage per hit is still a little bit ahead. Logic then states that bow rate of fire would have to be LESS then 1/3 the rate of fire of repeaters for the double shot mechanic in place to be ~equal for bow/repaters.

If anyone out there thinks that repeaters fire at three times the rate of bows (which benefits from 10K stars and manyshot as part of their offensive cycle) then they are completely clueless as the mechanics of ranged combat in DDO.

The reduced rate for double shot on repeaters is a ill thought out mechanic which strongly favors bows over crossbows.

This is a similar situation to the double strike nonsense when it was introduced and the heavy proliferation of THF builds that followed due to the mechanic so clearly favoring one fighting style over another.

11. Has anyone been able to take the Epic Spell Power: Negative feat? I have a capped divine destiny on my PM and was hoping to bump his self healing a bit, but it is not offered as an option. Is there a class based restriction also?

12. Originally Posted by Vordax
Has anyone been able to take the Epic Spell Power: Negative feat? I have a capped divine destiny on my PM and was hoping to bump his self healing a bit, but it is not offered as an option. Is there a class based restriction also?
I am buming this, becuase My druid hit 28 and I am getting a lot of wierdness. I can't take any of the devine SP feats - but I get Doubleshot even if I have no Primal ED's capped.
There seem to be some hidden qualifyers or requirements that I caonnt figure out, if anyone have any input on this I would be gratefull. For now im gonna wait a few hotfaixees to take 28 on any toon.

13. I hitted 26 with my pm and I cannot select +20 spellpower (of any type) even if I have 1 ED x sphere capped (maximum xp achieved).

I sent a ticket asking if this is WAI. Support replies "Greeting! etc etc [...] you need to be level 28 to get epic spellpower!"

really?

14. can this feats be swapped via Fred?

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