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  1. #1
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Default Ranged Combat - A Situational Tactic

    Question: Fall of Truth. You have both the Reaver and the Truthless One so you can't even see a sliver of health. Which do you kill first? If you kill the Reaver first, the dracolich may have more health (not showing) and may do something stupid like take to the air. If you kill the Truthless One first, the giant is usually way across the room, and people may be tripped up (overrun) from fighting the dracolich.

    The correct answer is it doesn't matter. Cause everyone should have a ranged weapon of some type. Everyone.

    Ranged combat is supposed to be SITUATIONAL. It's not supposed to be a full-time tactic, because as the real world shows - once full-time ranged gets a hold on your world - you no longer need a sword for combat.

    It looks like the Shroud is still going to be around even as this game dies. Triple positive ranged weapons are entirely doable for anyone above level 18. Just like everyone should be self-sufficient in the healing category, everyone should be self-sufficient in the ranged category. It's simply no fun failing a raid because people can't take the gimpy no-health-showing Reaver out in 10 seconds or less.

    Then, when everyone realizes that ranged combat is only a SITUATIONAL tactic, they can fix the game so that ranged attack doesn't make it look utterly stupid.

    The enemy is player attitudes.
    Last edited by Raithe; 07-30-2013 at 09:45 AM.

  2. #2
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    The correct answer is it doesn't matter. Cause there's at least one monkcher/furyshotter in every FoT
    Fixed that for you.
    Shahang Nezhat Bellezza Wipekin Farida of Ghallanda

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    Fixed that for you.
    I imagine if this was true, he wouldn't have talked about failing the raid.

  4. #4
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    Fixed that for you.
    Not fixed. That particular fury-shotter may be the one still on rez timer. The benefit of teamwork and cooperation is contingent on people being able to fill in gaps, in addition to being able to specialize. The tank/DPS/heals system was particularly bad when it came to PvP (and often was bad in PvE) because all anyone had to do was kill people in the right order.

    I know telling DDO forumites that self-sufficiency is key to teamwork is like yelling at a brick wall. I guess the only hope is that sound waves can slowly erode rock.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Question: Fall of Truth. You have both the Reaver and the Truthless One so you can't even see a sliver of health. Which do you kill first? If you kill the Reaver first, the dracolich may have more health (not showing) and may do something stupid like take to the air. If you kill the Truthless One first, the giant is usually way across the room, and people may be tripped up (overrun) from fighting the dracolich.

    The correct answer is it doesn't matter. Cause everyone should have a ranged weapon of some type. Everyone.

    Ranged combat is supposed to be SITUATIONAL. It's not supposed to be a full-time tactic, because as the real world shows - once full-time ranged gets a hold on your world - you no longer need a sword for combat.

    It looks like the Shroud is still going to be around even as this game dies. Triple positive ranged weapons are entirely doable for anyone above level 18. Just like everyone should be self-sufficient in the healing category, everyone should be self-sufficient in the ranged category. It's simply no fun failing a raid because people can't take the gimpy no-health-showing Reaver out in 10 seconds or less.

    Then, when everyone realizes that ranged combat is only a SITUATIONAL tactic, they can fix the game so that ranged attack doesn't make it look utterly stupid.

    The enemy is player attitudes.
    I dunno, with archers and artificers able to summon basically unlimited ammo, it astounds me that in this steam and sorcery world there are any of these quaint 'sword' users left... why use swords, just send self-healing robots with unlimited machine guns.

    Devs should nerf melee entirely and go with common sense, which is, obviously, to make magical ranged combat the most powerful thing in this game.

    (just kidding, before it turns into another 16 page flame war)

  6. #6
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    Counterpoint: without the appropriate feats (esp. Bow Str) will you even do enough damage with a GS longbow to make a difference? To even break DR? Will you have enough DEX to even hit more than ~50%? GS Throwers have the same problem, too.

    I can fire Nerf arrows towards the general area of Stormreaver for 10 seconds too, but if my total cumulative damage output is 5-10% of one spell cast by a caster in the group, is that really the difference maker in the raid?

    The problem runs a little deeper than just player attitude. There really isn't a way, in the game as it stands, to have a reliable ranged backup for 'situational use' like that, because ranged attack requires too much investment to bring it up to an acceptable minimum, and that means you're sacrificing some aspect of your main combat focus. The only exception is Ranger, who get their feats autogranted so there's no sacrifice involved.

    Until they come out with a L20+ bow with Bow Strength and STR-to-hit innate - ie, a blatant "this is the bow for melee to use as a backup" bow - I don't know how much situational ranged damage you can expect, especially for endgame raid situations.

  7. #7
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Fault: Leader - for inviting 12 toons into the group that cannot attack something outside of melee threat range.

    Not to mention: How did you kill the crystal? Throwing halflings?
    Last edited by Chai; 07-30-2013 at 04:16 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #8
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    There really isn't a way, in the game as it stands, to have a reliable ranged backup for 'situational use' like that, because ranged attack requires too much investment to bring it up to an acceptable minimum...
    Not true. My kensei fighter has absolutely ZERO character investment in range attack (specifically) of any sort. Absolutely nothing at all in feats, enhancements, or destinies. While he does have a fairly good dex, it isn't the major contributer. It's his strength that matters most.

    What he DOES have is an Impellent Spelltouched Throwing Axe of Hemorrhaging. It does:
    Impellent: 7 damage / throw
    Slicing Winds: 7.44 damage / throw
    Improved Cursespewing: 2.1 damage / throw
    Hemorrhaging: 7 damage / throw

    For a total of 23.54 damage per throw not including any base damage at all. Typical base damages are around 40 points (minus damage resistance / PRR), but on crits the usual seeker bonuses and some Legendary Dreadnaught crit bonuses apply to reach almost 200 points of base damage. Against undead, a triple positive ranged weapon will do about 30 points of damage not including base damage (and it doesn't care about DR). I was using a triple positive shuriken (on a drow) in the raid I mentioned.

    Given 10 people each using an appropriate ranged weapon, you are looking at a minimum of 30 damage per ranged attack, for 300 damage per second (approximately). You have 10 seconds, so that's close to 3000 damage (minimum). Good enough for what its for.

    Your comment about ranged combat is completely backwards. Ranged combat is close to acceptable (when compared with the environment) on characters that have no ranged emphasis at all. On characters with extreme ranged emphasis, it is absolutely ludicrous. Note I'm actually OK with caster ranged damage being ludicrous as long as they have a very limited amount of it. They don't - take a look particularly at the "Shiradi" magic missile caster design.

    It needs fixed. In a game-saving way.
    Last edited by Raithe; 07-30-2013 at 08:31 PM.

  9. #9
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    This is a pet peave of mine as well. (althogh not "totally" the players' fault.)

    Everyone should have an effective ranged and melee attack. Even casters. (although if you truly never run out of SP, I suppose that may not be true.)

    This reminds me of a story though: Me and a friend were two manning Reavers Refuge explorer areas. We were in the one near Prey. The portal was up.

    My friend was playing a Sorc.

    Apperntly at the the time he had no effective spells to beat down a portal.

    He also had NO melee weapon at all!

    I really could not understand this.


    I have a friend now who may not be carrying a ranged weapon in his Barb. recently we were in a situation where people were ranging, and he seemed to not be doing so.

    Again, I do not understand this.

    High Strength toons can still do a lot of damage per hit with a thrown weapon.

    Of course something else I saw recently was a lvl 24 Rogue that apparently did not have any healing pots..... so....... I guess it should not surprise me that people cannot be bothered to be prepared in other ways either.
    Last edited by Talon_Moonshadow; 07-31-2013 at 12:01 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

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