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Thread: AH and Sniping

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    Default AH and Sniping

    I know this is going to generate the usual litany of "too bad, sniping is legit, learn to snipe better" comments (from snipers, most likely) but I'm going to post it anyway :P I also want to head off any comparisons with how things work on, eg, eBay, since that is an auction website, not an AH within an MMO.

    Lately I've been noticing a lot of my bids aren't going through, even on items that I find with only a couple hours left and seemingly no bids made (ie bid values at even XX,000 values). I'll put down a bid, even with only maybe 2-3-4 hours (or sometimes even <2 hr) left, go play a little, and the next day log on to find "Auction Outbid" in my mailbox (or see it in my chat, as I'm off questing somewhere). These are non-buyout auctions, so its not just that someone is buying them out. Its one thing if I left an auction with 1+ days and it gets outbid, but when it happens on such short notice, there's nothing I can do about it. And it happens even when I'm already bidding market value on an item; the only explanation is someone is timing the auction to place a winning bid without leaving a chance for anyone else to outbid them.

    That's whats really frustrating - not only that I'm being outbid, but that I'm being outbid without a chance to increase my bid.

    The AH should support normal gameplay and support the economy. You should not have to "bid against yourself" by always bidding the max you can afford for an item. You should not have to metagame by keeping an auction alt permanently parked by an auctioneer/mailbox just so you can drop in and have a sniping war when an auction is in the last 20 mins, especially if you're busy actually playing the game at the time. It hurts the economy, too, when people subvert the auction system to avoid a normal bidding war for an item, rather than having to actually bid more than someone else is willing to, which gives the seller true market value for their item.

    The solutions are simple and proven, and they're seen often in other MMO AHs, so their utility and value should be clear. Proxy bidding is probably the most common solution, though that may be a little more involved to code for DDO. Adding additional time to auctions for last-minute bids...say, an additional 2h for bids made in the last 2h of an auction, or maybe even 6h/6h - would at least give people a decent chance to defend their (honest) bids.

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    Founder & Hero Gara's Avatar
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    Sounds like you need to change your strategy. There are 3 ways to win a bidding style auction. Bid on something no one else wants/notices, overbid the value of the item and back the sniper off, or plan to be there during the last few minutes of the auction.

    Proxy bidding is a nice idea but you'll still get sniped. The idea of adding time whenever someone bids close to the end is a double edged sword. You're still going to lose to people with more free time and they will likely use the timer to troll you until you give up. I know I certainly would.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gara View Post
    Sounds like you need to change your strategy. There are 3 ways to win a bidding style auction. Bid on something no one else wants/notices, overbid the value of the item and back the sniper off, or plan to be there during the last few minutes of the auction.

    Proxy bidding is a nice idea but you'll still get sniped. The idea of adding time whenever someone bids close to the end is a double edged sword. You're still going to lose to people with more free time and they will likely use the timer to troll you until you give up. I know I certainly would.
    Well in the first case, there's no problem even as-is The second case, that's not how auctions are supposed to work - its not a silent auction house. The third, as I alluded, I think is unfair to ask of players. Its a game, not a job....the AH should be there to support my gameplay, not become a responsibility.

    Proxy bidding doesn't let me ever get sniped. If I lose a proxy auction, then its because someone bid more than I was willing to, which I'm fine with, that's how it should be. It solves the problem of "bidding against yourself", letting the market decide the final price, as it should - not inflated by bidding against yourself, nor deflated by people waiting to snipe.

    And yes, added-time isn't as elegant a solution, but if they knew every bid would stay open for at least 6h, it would discourage a lot of people from trying to abuse the clock, at least. Part of the problem is there's a disincentive to bid early - if you can wait until its almost over, then it reduces the number of people you end up bidding against. You only bid against other "snipers", and thus only "snipers" actually win anything. Added-time, at least, removes or reduces that disincentive, since there is no "last minute" anymore.

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    Default Well...

    Seems more like one of those "Learn to work with the system" things, rather than "Let's change how it works". Turbine doesn't have the best of track records with implementing new things or tweaking existing systems. It's a miracle our bid system is bug free as is.

    When I see something I want on the AH, I place a bid. I also note when that bid is going to end. 20 minutes before a close is eons still for bids. If you truly have an interest in an item, get ready at the final 5 minutes.

    I don't say this to try and encourage you to "be a sniper". I'm just encouraging you to work with reality as its presented. People just plain won't drop down on a bid war with hours to go on the item. It's not sound from any viewpoint. Any "struggle" for your item is going to come down to the final moments.

    In the real world, bids only last a few minutes. Or it's completely civil and timed with an event and sign up sheet, and even still, in those situations, your hardcore fighters are gonna come out with minutes or seconds to spare. Honestly though, if you don't wanna put a few minutes into "shopping" and just want to zerg purchases as fast as quests...well then you're probably also one of the people who often complain about fine print.

    This is a complex, human nature system that has existed long before the DDO AH. If you REALLY REALLY want the shortcut to the item, play the damn game and be ready to bid with the pros.

    I admire the examples of different systems you pointed out. In your case, they may be more fair and reasonable for you, if they could realistically be implemented by a reliable team with freedom and time to tidy up minor annoyances ((and if we had that, our Known Bug List wouldn't be so unattractive)), which was your damning fail point from the start of your hopes.

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    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Well in the first case, there's no problem even as-is The second case, that's not how auctions are supposed to work - its not a silent auction house. The third, as I alluded, I think is unfair to ask of players. Its a game, not a job....the AH should be there to support my gameplay, not become a responsibility.

    Proxy bidding doesn't let me ever get sniped. If I lose a proxy auction, then its because someone bid more than I was willing to, which I'm fine with, that's how it should be. It solves the problem of "bidding against yourself", letting the market decide the final price, as it should - not inflated by bidding against yourself, nor deflated by people waiting to snipe.

    And yes, added-time isn't as elegant a solution, but if they knew every bid would stay open for at least 6h, it would discourage a lot of people from trying to abuse the clock, at least. Part of the problem is there's a disincentive to bid early - if you can wait until its almost over, then it reduces the number of people you end up bidding against. You only bid against other "snipers", and thus only "snipers" actually win anything. Added-time, at least, removes or reduces that disincentive, since there is no "last minute" anymore.
    While there are abusers for sure (I see many toons at certain ah.s any time of the day I am online) there might be even people, just logging in, checking the ah and notice that there is something they could use but the timer is almost gone. They bid, timer wears off, they win. That's how it is.

    I guess I'd say: bad luck. In any way, no bidder has a distinct right to be favored over others. Personally I will bump the bid to my limit and then hope. If someone goes higher, okay. There are always people, who put stuff in there for a buyout, which is reasonable for me.

    Bottom line: buyout or ignore.
    Last edited by zwiebelring; 07-30-2013 at 05:52 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    While there are abusers for sure (I see many toons at certain ah.s any time of the day I am online) there might be even people, just logging in, checking the ah and notice that there is something they could use but the timer is almost gone. They bid, timer wears off, they win. That's how it is.

    I guess I'd say: bad luck. In any way, no bidder has a distinct right to be favored over others. Personally I will bump the bid to my limit and then hope. If someone goes higher, okay. There are always people, who put stuff in there for a buyout, which is reasonable for me.

    Bottom line: buyout or ignore.

    I know I have logged in and checked the AH and found some nice deals with <1 hour left. A few rare times I have bid and gotten the winning email within minutes. Pure fluke.

    That said, there are some folks for whom the AH *IS* the game they enjoy. They'll sit and watch for the hour to drop from 3-to-2 hours (any hour works) so they know the approximate minute the auction will time out. IMO, if that's what they enjoy and they're putting the time into figuring out the closing minute, then they've earned the last minute bid. Some folks grind chests, some folks grind the AH timer.

    Any time I put a bid on anything, I fully expect it to lose. So I bid and forget.

    As Zwie said, "Buyout or ignore."
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuickSlick79 View Post
    It's a miracle our bid system is bug free as is.
    .
    It isn't. The damn auto calc my next bid still bugs from time to time. The suggested bid still gets rejected as too low!
    Seriously guys, how hard is that to fix properly?

    And for quite awhile there was a serious bug in the bidding logic that got stealth fixed in 18.2 I think.

    So the DDO AH is far from bullet proof. Someone changes a colour texture in House Phiarlin or corrects a spelling mistake in a lootgen table, and the AH bugs out.....again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Proxy bidding doesn't let me ever get sniped.
    Bwahahahahahahaha! Sure it does. It just makes you feel like you have a chance to win the auction without having to babysit it in its closing minutes. I have spent plenty of time sniping people on eBay in the past - and that's an auction house with a proxy bidding system. I used to get an incredible adrenaline rush from sniping for things I actually wanted (never let it get to the point where I was bidding on stuff I had no use for).

    As far as the DDO auction house goes, the only thing I can tell you is to bid the maximum amount you feel is both a price you are willing to pay and is a price you feel is reasonable for the item. After that, let the chips fall where they may because you have bid what you felt was reasonable and also the maximum you were willing to pay. More or less, it's rather the same as a proxy bidding system, except that you're just putting your max bid out there for everyone to see instead of keeping it secret. This is how I do it when I am bidding on something with either no buyout or a buyout I consider to be unreasonable.

    Would it be nice to have a proxy bidding system? Sure. However, that is not the system we have and, I fear, attempting to implement a proxy bidding system would be a situation in which Turbine's reach exceeds its grasp. So, you are going to have to learn to accept being outbid and you are going to have to learn to find a middle ground between the price you feel is reasonable for an item and the absolute maximum you are willing to pay (even when that price might be a bit unreasonable in your opinion).

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    Two hours is forever in an MMO. That's 2-6 quests, and is sometimes all the play time someone has in a day.

    Two hours is way too soon to see the real value of a non-buyout auction item. Try 5 minutes, maybe less. Personally the ONLY reason I place an early bidon an item I want is to remind me it's there. My real bids don't start until 5-10 minutes from auction close. I'm not sniping, I'm checking the interest level of others and seeing how cheap I can get an item for. If you really want the item, maybe someone else does too. You say market value - but that's your opinion of market value. My opinion of market value might be different. I wouldn't give you a single plat for that awesome pair of handwraps because I don't have a monk (yet) and it would just take up storage. However, I really like that Dusk Heart trinket, so if there is no buyout, or if the buyout is more than I want to pay, I will place the lowest possible bid on the item to see if anyone else is watching it, and I won't do it until a couple minutes remain. I'm not trying to screw someone else, I'm bidding smart.

    There is nothing stopping you from doing the same thing. You don't have to babysit an auction for two hours if you don't start bidding until a couple minutes before it's over. That said, I prefer people to put reasonable buy-out prices so I can just grab it and go.

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    DDO is the only mmo that I play, so since the solutions are simple and proven can you point me to games that have enacted the solutions and the forums for those games so we can assess how players on those games view it?

    Also, its not clear to me that this is subverting the market value of the item. The complaint is that you placed the market value bid on an item and then someone outbid you. That suggests that you never put in the high market value of the item. You only get outbid when someone is willing to pay more than you. So, if you really want to get the item, put in what you're willing to pay, not what you're willing to get it for a steal. If you are indifferent, then you can try to get it for a steal and accept someone may outbid you.

    Also, its not clear to me that adding time to an auction is going to universally have good effects. Some people might want to have their plat now rather than have to successively wait an additional 6 hours every time someone wants to raise the prices of an item by 1% for days on end. And some people don't want to have to keep coming back every 6 hours to an item because someone raised its price in the last hour of the auction.
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    a "bid" with "max bid" option like ebay would be nice for the buyer and seller. You do have the option to bid more than the recommendation if you wish.

    Yeah, there are people that check auctions about to end and bid on things they think are underpriced.

    OP, if you want something just bid the max you are willing to bid. If you are trying to get a good deal bid the most you are willing to pay. Otherwise you have to babysit the AH which is a monumental waste of time to me.
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    sometimes wish that DDO had a AH that actually worked and by that i mean a large number of people wanted to sell their items for plat... but it does not so dont cry about it learn to live with it. dont think DDO has a functional economy so dont think they can actually fix the AH as it would not have any effect.

    my solution is dont use AH, or in my case i use it to get low lvl items for my TR needs.

    somtimes check the AH but thats only to kill time since im bored dont expect to actually see anyting id want for a reasonable price
    Last edited by Uidolon; 07-30-2013 at 07:40 AM.

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    I got into an exciting bidding war a couple of days ago.
    Logged in and check the AH, 30 minutes left and it was on.
    I lost the bid, but that was pretty darn fun I must admit.
    Ended up buying an identical item that had a buyout. A bit much, but I HAD to have it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I know this is going to generate the usual litany of "too bad, sniping is legit, learn to snipe better" comments (from snipers, most likely) but I'm going to post it anyway :P I also want to head off any comparisons with how things work on, eg, eBay, since that is an auction website, not an AH within an MMO.

    Lately I've been noticing a lot of my bids aren't going through, even on items that I find with only a couple hours left and seemingly no bids made (ie bid values at even XX,000 values). I'll put down a bid, even with only maybe 2-3-4 hours (or sometimes even <2 hr) left, go play a little, and the next day log on to find "Auction Outbid" in my mailbox (or see it in my chat, as I'm off questing somewhere). These are non-buyout auctions, so its not just that someone is buying them out. Its one thing if I left an auction with 1+ days and it gets outbid, but when it happens on such short notice, there's nothing I can do about it. And it happens even when I'm already bidding market value on an item; the only explanation is someone is timing the auction to place a winning bid without leaving a chance for anyone else to outbid them.

    That's whats really frustrating - not only that I'm being outbid, but that I'm being outbid without a chance to increase my bid.

    The AH should support normal gameplay and support the economy. You should not have to "bid against yourself" by always bidding the max you can afford for an item. You should not have to metagame by keeping an auction alt permanently parked by an auctioneer/mailbox just so you can drop in and have a sniping war when an auction is in the last 20 mins, especially if you're busy actually playing the game at the time. It hurts the economy, too, when people subvert the auction system to avoid a normal bidding war for an item, rather than having to actually bid more than someone else is willing to, which gives the seller true market value for their item.

    The solutions are simple and proven, and they're seen often in other MMO AHs, so their utility and value should be clear. Proxy bidding is probably the most common solution, though that may be a little more involved to code for DDO. Adding additional time to auctions for last-minute bids...say, an additional 2h for bids made in the last 2h of an auction, or maybe even 6h/6h - would at least give people a decent chance to defend their (honest) bids.

    Did you expect to out a low bid on an item early on and not get outbid by someone else?
    Did you expect to only put one bid on an item and not have to watch it in the last few minutes of the auction?

    While you may want to head off comparisons to real auctions, the premise is the same.
    Ebay did a internal analysis of auctions that showed 59% (on average) of auction activity ocurred in the last few minutes.

    Some auction systems add 5 minutes to every auction if a bid is placed in the last 5 minutes.

    There are good points and bad points...
    -Time added auctions may drag on for longer than intended time periods as every dollar bid adds more time, potentially dragging out the auction way longer than people want... like an auction that should end at 6pm drags on well beyond midnight or longer.. hard to plan around that...
    -Proxy bidding is still capped by how much you want to spend and can still be outbid.
    -Sniping allows auctions to complete with people still willing to pay more.. so even the seller doesnt get as good a value as they could have.
    -Sniping bids don't allways get processed due to lag, system timing.... so even snipers dont allways win the auction.

    Reality is it is just an auction for a virtual prize.
    If you want the item then post a bid that will deter most and coordinate your questing so you are available to watch the auction in the last minutes.

    Otherwise quest for the item yourself, or pay the price and purchase from the buy now auctions or advertise in trade channels for what you want with the offer of what you are willing to pay.

    While I agree that getting sniped on an auction sucks...
    The auctionhouse is not a core part of the game... it is a sideline that can be profitable for the savy and sometimes lucky.

    With the limitation of resources DDO has and all the other issues going on in the game investing time in reprogramming the AH is not a good use of hose resources or time..
    Last edited by JOTMON; 07-30-2013 at 08:47 AM.
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    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    it is a sideline that can be profitable for the savy and sometimes lucky.
    Well said.

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    For me its a shopping center, yet overprized but convenient.
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    I tend to bid in one of two ways. I'll either toss a small bid at an item with full knowledge that I'll be outbid. I do this just so I can track the item better and will typically do it on items with a day or more left. I can then easily see the activity on that item and check back when it's closer to finishing.

    My second option is to just bid my maximum. There are 3 specific items I keep an eye on in the AH. Let's use medium eberron fragments in this example. My personal cap for them right now is 100k each. If I see any for 100k or less buyout, I buy on sight. If the buyout is higher but the bid is lower, I just bid 100k and walk away. 90% of the time I will be outbid. Even though I lose, I feel I helped the seller by getting them a bare minimum from the sale. I could have just bid 5k on the item, but I would most certainly be outbid by someone with 6k and I'll come back with 7k and so on. I don't have time for that.

    I'm not sure what type of item the OP is talking about specifically or if it's just a generalization. To me, the item matters. There will always be more medium eberron shards on the AH. If I lose one, I'll have another chance later. There are rare items that aren't necessarily extremely valuable that I try to look for. These sort of items vary wildly in price as posters have less to compare them to. I'll use a dex 7 augment as an example. I tend to see one on the AH every few days or so. Prices vary from 300k to 2mil buyout. I don't fool around and again bid what I feel is fair right away, but with the expectation that I will have to come back and bid more later. It's a rare item. I'm willing to go over what I feel is my maximum as long as the price remains reasonable. I suspect it's situations like this that annoy the OP. What I end up paying for an item like this has more to do with how much disposable plat I have on me than how much I think it's static value is. I have no problem overpaying for items like this and expect to be watching the AH in the final minutes if I want the item badly. Sorry OP, but I guess I'm one of those snipers you don't like. I'm just trying to get the item I want within the operating rules of the AH.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 07-30-2013 at 09:46 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdbd3rd View Post
    ...there are some folks for whom the AH *IS* the game they enjoy...
    yes. anyone who knows me knows where me booty is parked majority of time.
    i frankly luv the AH mini-game.
    standard rules always apply... buy low, sell high, but overpricing gets you nowhere.

    in the end, prices in public are between buyer and seller, no matter the item.
    The AH, however, has its own rules that u sort of either figure out, or get passed by.

    as for OP losing his bids with way too much time left... *shrug what else is there to add? Be there when its ready for timer or miss out. Cant see anyone being outbid and giving up for no otyher reason.

    After all, when YOU placed YOU'RE bid, you thereby outbid someone else....
    -u expect them to say, ah well... i got outbid... screw it!

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    not sure if this has already been mentioned, but is auction house still "bugged" (after update 18) where it lets you bid the same amount as the high bidder?

    I am not sure if that is now a "feature" of the auction house or a bug? That bug even lets people snipe bid on a 2.1 million plat bid -- before if someone bid on a 2 million plat auction, it locked the winning bid. Now you have to play a sniping game to win.

    About the idea of the auctions being extended, I actually wondered if ddo already implemented something like that? I had sorted auctions by the amount of time left in bid, and noticed a +15 item for something like 50 plat bid amount with 1 minute left. I put in my bid, but noticed a few seconds later that I had been outbid, without the item increasing in price. I placed the 1.05x bid amount, and a few seconds later again, was outbid by someone bidding the same amount (using that AH bug). this went on for 6 minutes, with me continually raising the price, until it got up to about 75% of the item value, at which point I think I lost.

    so it made me wonder if placing a bid in the last minute increases the time remaining by a few seconds? or if this was just a fluke. It never seems consistent though.

    It would be nice if they fixed the auction house to how it used to work, but I am not sure if this "bug" change was intentional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uidolon View Post
    by that i mean a large number of people wanted to sell their items for plat... but it does not
    This seems like a greater issue than the specific rules for the Auction House. Anything that is actually good is either saved to use as trade currency, or else listed on the Astral $hard AH. Platinum is now a nearly useless commodity, because of the numerous exploits that allowed players to get near unlimited amounts of wealth that was never removed.

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