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  1. #141
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    So devs . . . we keeping our ED XP or what?

  2. #142
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    You dont have enough data to come to your conclusion.......depends on the server and players range a GREAT DEAL.
    Rofl
    They said it's not a problem for them, how do they not have enough data to make an observation about their own experience?
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    Well, since you asked, one of the biggest problems with the game currently is that it is hard to find groups. There are too few people playing and too many of those that do play enjoy farming the same 10 quests by themselves or with friends. The change encourages people to run a wider range of quests which may cause these people to either join other people's groups (after they have finished farming their usual 10 quests) or start groups for a wider range of quests (since they can no longer keep to such a small list of quests).
    Not even close. What makes you think I suddenly HAVE to add you to complete more quests? TR grinders will simply continue running the same way they have before. Throwing a few more quests on top of it will just make them say Oh, well. They'll continue to play the way they like. This idea doesn't, in the slightest, improve pugging. It actually restricts it even more by making the process longer, which in turn facilitates a TR response of even less new randos.

    Even a server merge of every one into a single one wouldn't change the PUG scene. It would only take some time before alike players grouped up in channels, guilds, friend's lists, chat servers.

  4. #144
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrancisP.Fancypants View Post
    This keeps showing up as an issue, and I'm not sure why.
    I like to hit almost everything once and move on too, partly because I'm living on favor TP, partly because I don't enjoy farming, and partly because I just like to hit P and see a full list of red completions. And over the last year, I haven't run into problems finding groups. I do run with guildies a lot, but I PUG just as much. I have yet to run into the "no groups" problem. In a year I haven't seen this, aside from the normal summer vacation slowdown or off-peak hours.

    I get the impression that either these players have a bad rep, they're discounting LFMs because of criteria or party makeup, refuse to put up their own group, or they're just parroting what a few people are whining about here. Or maybe the grass is greener on Argo, I don't know. But it's not a problem from where I stand.
    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Rofl
    They said it's not a problem for them, how do they not have enough data to make an observation about their own experience?
    No argument with the part that its not a problem from his observation, im calling the observations process faulty.

    To say he gets the impression that "either these players have a bad rep, they're discounting LFMs because of criteria or party makeup, refuse to put up their own group, or they're just parroting what a few people are whining about here. Or maybe the grass is greener on Argo" and make it an observation is silly.

    He didnt make an observations, he made unfounded assumptions and used them to form an opinion. One that may or may not be accurate.


  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Like most MMO’s, I am aware that this game needs a grind.
    Think back to old school Daggerfall on the PC, or a dozen other games like it where you would lose yourself for weeks on end playing it, and when you completed the game you would do it again. It was called replay value.

    TRing is a genius stroke to embrace that, but because it's an MMO we call it grind and relegate anyone interested in to be basement dwellers

    All we're really asking is for the powers that be to let us keep on doing what we enjoy doing, but if they want to push the bar higher then that gives some of us more things to do and more stuff to go for. None of it should be OP otherwise it becomes defacto compulsory, it's just something for some of us to tick off while we enjoy a journey we're familiar with. What isn't good is when they decide to move the goalposts, like the current proposals for screwing repetition penalty under the guise of XP ransack mechanics. Or the recent outcry over Heroic TRing wiping your ED XP in the last official proposals for Epic TR.

    This really isn't difficult:
    (1) Do not mess with the good stuff that we're used to, if it's not being complained about then it works. If it works then it works for a reason
    (2) Don't try and sell us a positive change while ripping apart the stuff that works

  6. #146
    Community Member 96th_Malice's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=rest;5053148]
    Quote Originally Posted by mmitch5 View Post


    I was running about a million XP an hour the last few days. Possibly more.

    Oh and for 100% cap it's actually 21,780,000 xp for all destinies. 1,980,000 each.
    Ummmmmmmm ......

    Can I start running with your toons ????

    Hehr

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    How would greatly increasing repeat penalty accumulation make the game more fun for players?
    How can anyone make a absolute comment about what might make the game either more or less fun for players? It's to subjective for that.

    I can give a reason as to why it may make the game more fun for some players. It gives everyone an incentive to play a wider variety of quests so should lead to a wider variety of quest LFMs or players interested in joining LFMs for a wider variety of quests.

  8. #148
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    I can absolutely and wholeheartedly say that the repeat penalty is something that gives me no joy what so ever. I do all possible to max EXP with as little penalty as possible. One of the of ways that this impacts me negatively and is felt by my guild and friends (and to an extent the extended "LFM" community) is that I choose to solo content a lot more if I'm working around the repeat pens. I am "not available" to run a lot of things that I would actually like to..and would help my pals, guildies and everyone else who may pug with us. The reason I'm "not available" is because I dont want to run my counter up and take big exp hits when I am working to finish EDs.

    So that is a very definable consequence of repeat penalty and how it can and does keep your LFM panel lower and how it can and does force people to run more "loner" type of builds.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I can give a reason as to why it may make the game more fun for some players. It gives everyone an incentive to play a wider variety of quests so should lead to a wider variety of quest LFMs or players interested in joining LFMs for a wider variety of quests.
    I think this has been adequately addressed by earlier responses but let me focus on one point, which is that trying to call the repeat penalty an "incentive" is a gross mischaracterization. It makes one activity that some group of players enjoy much less enjoyable. What's worse, it doesn't make the other activity any more fun for them, it simply makes the other activity necessary.

    If what you're really getting at is that you'd like Turbine to force other players to have no option than grouping with you so that you can have more fun at their expense, then I reject that position. I'm also not at all confident that any players are going to have any more fun at all if they've been herded together with other players who are only grudgingly running quests that they'd rather not be.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    I think this has been adequately addressed by earlier responses but let me focus on one point, which is that trying to call the repeat penalty an "incentive" is a gross mischaracterization. It makes one activity that some group of players enjoy much less enjoyable. What's worse, it doesn't make the other activity any more fun for them, it simply makes the other activity necessary.

    If what you're really getting at is that you'd like Turbine to force other players to have no option than grouping with you so that you can have more fun at their expense, then I reject that position. I'm also not at all confident that any players are going to have any more fun at all if they've been herded together with other players who are only grudgingly running quests that they'd rather not be.
    I don't believe I mentioned what I may or may not like at all, as that wasn't the question. Especially when the only thing that matters is what Turbine feels is in their best interest. I just gave a hypothetical answer to the question that was asked.

    Personally, I'd actually prefer a system where every run is unique and no quest is ever repeated even by other groups. But I understand that isn't possible with this game. So I just choose play or not play whatever game I'm offered knowing game companies place overall profitability ahead of my personal desires.

  11. #151
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Assuming that this is true and we are looking at a fairly massive repeat penalty to XP on quests I have a feeling that it's going to have a very negative effect on the PUG scene.

    The reason being is that taking a penalty on the XP (ie -10%) is even LESS desirable than before. Currently if it happens a couple times a day, no biggie we lost a little on this run but whatever. If it's the ONLY run you get well then taking -10% goes from being a minor annoyance to something that simply can't be tolerated.

    Speaking as a vet who solos and runs in static / guild runs frequently I do PUG often enough. Sometimes they are great, often they are OK and other times I am basically carrying them through the quest that would have been faster and easier to just solo.

    Now adding big repeat penalty + BB bonus = a killing blow to my PUG scene, it's not really likely to happen unless I am running the quest for favor / loot and no XP.

    I don't mind losing 10% occasionally at the rate it works now it's more like 0.05% overall at worst. Having to 1 and done a quest, well at the rate that I see someone drop in my pugs that 10% is probably going to be 3-4%. Given the MILLIONS of XP I have to grind out in a life 3-4% is representing several hours.

    If the idea if this change is to try and encourage grouping it's not going to happen. It will encourage quest diversity but at the cost of grouping in my opinion.


  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I can give a reason as to why it may make the game more fun for some players. It gives everyone an incentive to play a wider variety of quests so should lead to a wider variety of quest LFMs or players interested in joining LFMs for a wider variety of quests.
    This is where we need a producer with massive balls to come out and say - Yes, we are deliberately shaping the future of the game with a conscious effort to promote other quests and to penalise people xp farming a single quest (although for some unknown reason we refuse to address the issue of garbage XP in some quests which is what creates the necessity in some people's opinions to XP farm specific quests).

    We can give reasons till the cows come home, but what are Turbine's reasons for these changes?

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    To me what you're describing is two subsets of players; you're in a subset whose preferred activity is the variety of running as many different quests as possible as few times as possible during your "life". That's great, it's nice that DDO provides so many quests that such a player subset can continue to find enjoyment. There's another subset for whom running a lot of different quests is clearly *not* enjoyable as evidenced by their continued engagement in their preferred activity, that is, running a limited set of quests frequently, often with speed as a goal. There's no moral judgement that says one subset is better than the other, and players have self segmented into those subsets. It's a poor jibe to insinuate that one subset doesn't "like other people", they may simply gain enjoyment from other means like speed based achievements, short man runs, planning out a "fast" TR path and so on.

    What you're suggesting is that because you perceive your subset to be smaller, that Turbine has an obligation to force players from the other subset to engage in your preferred activity by way of demotivating them from their own preferred activity. In other words, you want Turbine to trade in their fun for more of your own. I reject that position.

    I'd be happy to have Turbine focus on bringing more new players into all subsets, but the fact that we have different groups that play for all these different reasons is evidence Turbine did something right. They'll only aggravate some players by trying to engineer them into different behaviors and activities. A multitude of quests are right there for the running, and some players prefer not to run them - likely they ran them once or twice and simply decided they weren't as fun as running fewer quests more often. Yet we think we need to manipulate them into some other way of playing the game? It's bad customer relationship management, IMO.
    I am not saying Turbine should hurt one group for the benefit of the other I was simply answering your question that no one had come up with one good thing about the nerf portion of the change. I was pointing out that even the nerf portion of the change does have a positive impact on some players.

    Do I want Turbine to hurt some players to help others? Heck no. But unfortunately they do it all the time. I want all raids to give their 20th completion list every 3 raids instead of every 20 raids. Instead, because some people like farming raids at end game instead of TRing I have to either do without most raid loot or spend 2 months bored out of my mind at cap just to get a decent reward list. This is a classic example of hurting some players for the benefit of others. I don't want to sit at level cap yet if I want more than one shroud item there is no way around it. I want quests and raids to give their rewards quickly (basically ending the concept of "rare" drops) so that I can keep playing my 39 lives toward three time completionist and then do the same thing with Epic TRing. Unfortunately the people that think farming the same lame raids for months on end is the only way to play a game (because they would get bored and leave otherwise) I have to either stay at cap also or simply do without. I am no stranger to the multitude of obnoxious features this game has because some people don't like the same things I do and cannot support a change (such as infinite weightless inventory, ship buffs that never wear off, no experience penalties for death or re-entry, doing a quest 3 times on normal giving the same favor as once on elite, etc.). We all have to put up with being forced to play the way other people think is best.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  14. #154
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    Assuming that this is true and we are looking at a fairly massive repeat penalty to XP on quests I have a feeling that it's going to have a very negative effect on the PUG scene.
    .
    I agree, but I find the reason to be MUCH more dangerous then the increased weight of the death penalty.

    Essentially BB is a HORRIBLY IMPLEMENTED MECHANIC because it limits the amount of content that is good to run for any particular player at any particular time. Essentially, BB cuts out incentive (BIG TIME) to run quests on non elite setting the first time. That may sound like a good thing, but the problem is that it limits the groups you might otherwise join...ie less content has less incentives to run it. Then on top of that it also cuts out the incentive to run anything more then once that is not already a huge xp/min quest. This was not previously that case because at least before there was a ring of second tier xp/min quests which you would not be too far behind running when you saw a pug up for them.

    A very heavy handed repetition penalty mechanic would be another pure limiter to competitive content a particular toon could run at any particular time. It could decimate the incentive to run a quest more then once if too strong, basically making the grouping options at any one time even more limited then BB currently does.
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  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    We all have to put up with being forced to play the way other people think is best.
    I didn't realize some people were forced to play at all. If that's the case then my thoughts on this issue are different.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I didn't realize some people were forced to play at all. If that's the case then my thoughts on this issue are different.
    It's like being in a polluted environment and saying you are forced to breath polluted air. Sure you can argue that no one is forcing you to breath, but it doesn't change the fact that if you do choose to breath, polluted air is the only air available.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  17. #157
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    It's like being in a polluted environment and saying you are forced to breath polluted air. Sure you can argue that no one is forcing you to breath, but it doesn't change the fact that if you do choose to breath, polluted air is the only air available.
    It is and always has been a strawman argument.

    Some people just choose not to say that there could possibly be something wrong with DDO. It is easier for them to say, quit playing, than it is for them to say Turbine could be wrong on something.
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  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    You dont have enough data to come to your conclusion.......depends on the server and players range a GREAT DEAL.
    This isn't science; I'm saying is it's not a problem for me. I haven't heard people I run with complaining. There are consistently 5 or 6 LFMs up for my level range even at off-peak times. I don't lack for people to run with. So whatever conclusions I'm drawing are, as I said, from my own experience. Maybe I'm just always in the lucky level range on a more active server. But if I wasn't, complaining about it on the forums wouldn't solve the problem; I'd be looking to switch servers or roll up some alts.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    It is and always has been a strawman argument.

    Some people just choose not to say that there could possibly be something wrong with DDO. It is easier for them to say, quit playing, than it is for them to say Turbine could be wrong on something.
    Oh, there is a lot "wrong" with DDO IMO. A lot more than most other mainstream MMO's out actually. I just find it more fun to play despite this. If I didn't I simply would play the game I find more fun. I just find the expectation of a perfect game to be unreasonable as we all define perfection differently.

    Also the company that develops the game is more interested in making the best profit possible, rather than the best game possible. Cost effectiveness will always dictate which nice features, or even needed features, a game will have. That doesn't even take competition for funding into account. If WB feels the revenue generated by DDO would be better spent making Loony Toons cartoons than upgrading the game, that's where the money will be going.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    It's like being in a polluted environment and saying you are forced to breath polluted air. Sure you can argue that no one is forcing you to breath, but it doesn't change the fact that if you do choose to breath, polluted air is the only air available.
    Except that DDO deprivation is rarely fatal. This is a silly argument as playing DDO isn't a requirement to, basically, continuing to do everything else. It's a choice, not a requirement.

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