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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    And I know for fact, due to actually playing the content on the highest difficulty available it does make a difference.
    Just not a critical one. Unless all that and the kitchen sink with the planets aligned are what it takes for a particular player to survive the content. Which is another issue completely.

  2. #202
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Just not a critical one. Unless all that and the kitchen sink with the planets aligned are what it takes for a particular player to survive the content. Which is another issue completely.
    I take it more as proof positive of your lack of knowledge regarding content you don't understand and don't care to involve yourself in.

    Love the thinly veiled insult btw. Very classy
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
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  3. #203
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    This might be a moot point. I haven't done the EE new stuff yet but at level 28, 70 INT, 63 Necro DC EE GH stuff seamed pretty reasonable.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    No they are not pigeon holed to Shiradi. It's just that damage is damage while DC casting is all or nothing and in that content it takes more effort to debuff things to a point close enough to all for them to be comfortable using a one trick pony play style. When someone points out that CCing some and using other options they have available on the others works, he get's accused of getting off the subject by mentioning the other options.

    What I'm mostly seeing here are players complaining that the character they spent so long grinding on isn't able to neutralize mobs 95% of the time while the damage dealers can damage mobs 95% of the time without taking into consideration that damaged mobs still hit back.
    This is not what the people that actually played DC casters in the content are saying. That is what you are saying. The one trick pony is Shiradi casting because that is all that makes sense which is extremely limiting. People are saying they don't want to be forced to use the one-trick pony. I don't. I would like to see a more diverse set of casting builds work.

    You are speculatively arguing with people sharing their actual experience. Maybe it would be a worthwhile exercise to bring a DC caster into the content and see how it goes.
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
    Shiradi Wiz Plan for 1st Lifers: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...r-First-Lifers
    LE Capable Int Assassin - U29: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Assassin-Build
    Warlock DC Caster: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ld-Blast-Build

    Several characters on Sarlona all starting with "Rand" in the Guild "Guardians of House Cannith". My main four characters are Randowl (20 Warlock EA DPS Build), Randslar (Bard 14 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2 Swashbuckler), Randek (Druid CC Caster 17/Fvs 3) and Randomall (Rogue 20 assassin).

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    This is not what the people that actually played DC casters in the content are saying. That is what you are saying. The one trick pony is Shiradi casting because that is all that makes sense which is extremely limiting. People are saying they don't want to be forced to use the one-trick pony. I don't. I would like to see a more diverse set of casting builds work.

    You are speculatively arguing with people sharing their actual experience. Maybe it would be a worthwhile exercise to bring a DC caster into the content and see how it goes.
    Actually I'm going by what other people are posting. Or are you saying that DC casting doesn't even work some of the time after debuffing?

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The debuff works, as does shaken.
    My apologies, I was thinking of scrolls of Crushing Despair. Aside from that, clickies suck anyway for a number of other reasons.

    1. They take up a slot.
    2. They are slow to swap in.
    3. They require more clicking to use.
    4. They can't be quickened.
    5. They share different timers.
    6. They can contribute to a laggier gameplay experience.
    7. They are another thing to keep track of.

    By the way I'm a huge clicky fan, just not in endgame play as part of a caster's debuffing routine.

    As far as DC's go, my 1st life WF AM in Shiradi has low-mid 40's DC's. I can FoD the giants in EE Tor with a single scrolled Enervation, followed by a cast Energy Drain more than 50% of the time. It's just less efficient than Shiradi Magic Missiles, so I save DC casting for having fun when I know I have enough SP left to get to the next shrine.

    Without the Shiradi option for a Wizard, it would be unplayably inefficient unless you are desperate and it's your only toon. Even then over time you will suffer the inefficiencies of the trade-offs you made to get vialbe EE DC's compared to the staying power of Shiradi. Also, with a Shattermantle thrower, I can bypass any non-Drow SR on my 1st lifer with just items, feats and enhancements.

    Just to give those lacking experience in EE's a reference point.
    Last edited by RightToRemainStupid; 08-02-2013 at 04:50 AM.

  7. #207
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    Allowing any class to cc 95% of the mobs until death is not going to be good for any game. It's DnD, not whack a mole. Things need to fight back and show off their uniqueness. This is why Shiradi is better than allowing DC casting.

    Shiradi cc's only one or a few mobs at a time. So some of a group of mobs can fight back. The only way to cc groups of mobs is spamming meteor, but you will go oom.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 08-02-2013 at 06:10 AM.

  8. #208
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Shiradi cc's only one or a few mobs at a time. So some of a group of mobs can fight back. The only way to cc groups of mobs is spamming meteor, but you will go oom.
    In case you are being serious, force missiles. force missiles SLA, sleet storm, ice storm, cloudkill etc.
    Unmetaed spam on dumped DC first life no gear toon will be more effective ( and SP efficient ) than multi past life specialized top geared caster ( or divines, or melee tactics ).
    Tell us again how it's more D&D. Shiradi bs has nothing to do with casting, spell, class, debuff, quest knowledge or skill.

    People that spent years on their toons don't want easy buttons, but being at least comparable instead of TRing into stupid mental toughnessed robot sorcs. "Casting", my a$$.
    Ghallanda

  9. #209
    Community Member anivaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Fine, you keep telling yourself that to justify the time you put into doing it. What ever makes you content works for me.

    But personally, I don't see any of those things, or even all together, being the difference between viable and non-viable characters or I simply wouldn't be playing DDO.
    So you agree that properly built first life melees can do fine in EEGH? Because I agree with you. The sad thing we are discussing is that multiple life TRs with proper build and maxed out gear focusing on DCs is gimp compared to your no investment melee or Shiradi.
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  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Actually I'm going by what other people are posting. Or are you saying that DC casting doesn't even work some of the time after debuffing?
    It was completely obvious that you and the other person arguing strongly it's fine as is aren't running the content with a DC caster. Some people just want to see DC casting marginalized rather than seeing game balance.

    There are a lot of ways devs can fix this such as going with a modified version of the armor class system if they don't want anyone to achieve a 95% success rate. What we see now is that DC casting makes no sense because it's too resource-intensive so you either go in with a lot of pots and keep debuffing. Right now whether a character is spec'd for DC or not, it only makes sense to go in with Shiradi and only use DC casting in limited situations.
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
    Shiradi Wiz Plan for 1st Lifers: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...r-First-Lifers
    LE Capable Int Assassin - U29: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Assassin-Build
    Warlock DC Caster: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ld-Blast-Build

    Several characters on Sarlona all starting with "Rand" in the Guild "Guardians of House Cannith". My main four characters are Randowl (20 Warlock EA DPS Build), Randslar (Bard 14 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2 Swashbuckler), Randek (Druid CC Caster 17/Fvs 3) and Randomall (Rogue 20 assassin).

  11. #211
    Community Member anivaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Pretty much how I read it. It's not that it's not possible, it's just not as easy and/or efficient than other options, so not worth the effort or a waste of a party slot.
    How I read it is that people are in here commenting on DC casting when they have NEVER run a DC caster in EEGH. I would bet that neither of you have even capped a wizard. You're probably both in FoTW or LD and murdering EH or pre U16 EEs. Any first life melee can do that if properly built.

    We are not asking for easy buttons. We are asking to be worth a party slot. Wasting tons of sp on debuffs and recastings and expecting us to use tons of pots to come even close to doing what melee or shiradi do is ridiculous. 60% success on my holds, which get a resave every 2 seconds, is not viable. Holds also dont make me able to solo any content. They help me hold some things so others get the glory of killing it. I'm not asking to be able to solo any EEs like melees and Shiradi do, I'm asking to have my ability to help my teammates again, instead of being a slot wasted by not getting another FIRST LIFE furyshotter.
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  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    In case you are being serious, force missiles. force missiles SLA, sleet storm, ice storm, cloudkill etc.
    Unmetaed spam on dumped DC first life no gear toon will be more effective ( and SP efficient ) than multi past life specialized top geared caster ( or divines, or melee tactics ).
    Tell us again how it's more D&D. Shiradi bs has nothing to do with casting, spell, class, debuff, quest knowledge or skill.

    People that spent years on their toons don't want easy buttons, but being at least comparable instead of TRing into stupid mental toughnessed robot sorcs. "Casting", my a$$.
    Absolutely, not to mention CC rarely worked 95% of the time in difficult content and many mobs were immune or highly resistant. Orange named were either immune or had extremely high saves (DC spells). Red names were completely immune. You could make an effective DC caster in U14 content, but it wasn't easy. It worked well in some quests and then didn't work so well in belly of the beast EE mob fights. It's never been a 95% success rate except in limited situations.
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
    Shiradi Wiz Plan for 1st Lifers: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...r-First-Lifers
    LE Capable Int Assassin - U29: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Assassin-Build
    Warlock DC Caster: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ld-Blast-Build

    Several characters on Sarlona all starting with "Rand" in the Guild "Guardians of House Cannith". My main four characters are Randowl (20 Warlock EA DPS Build), Randslar (Bard 14 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2 Swashbuckler), Randek (Druid CC Caster 17/Fvs 3) and Randomall (Rogue 20 assassin).

  13. #213
    Community Member anivaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    No they are not pigeon holed to Shiradi. It's just that damage is damage while DC casting is all or nothing and in that content it takes more effort to debuff things to a point close enough to all for them to be comfortable using a one trick pony play style. When someone points out that CCing some and using other options they have available on the others works, he get's accused of getting off the subject by mentioning the other options.

    What I'm mostly seeing here are players complaining that the character they spent so long grinding on isn't able to neutralize mobs 95% of the time while the damage dealers can damage mobs 95% of the time without taking into consideration that damaged mobs still hit back.
    You do realize casters have this thing called sp? Using 5 spells each time a trash mob farts on us uses that sp fast, which requires us to pot. If melee and Shiradi had to use that level of resources to complete an EE, I would be completely fine with things staying the way they are. However a properly built melee or Shiradi can do most EEs with NO RESOURCES used.

    Instead of posting on this thread, spend your time making a viable DC caster, run him in EEGH and get back to us. Uneducated remarks do not help the discussion.
    Cannith - Sorrion - Glassbones - Galodon - Farsnipe
    Sarlona - Glassbones

  14. #214
    Community Member Lycurgus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    They are lying.
    No, with modest debuffing a 56+enchantment DC w/58 spell pen actually works reasonably well in EEGH. Necromancy is a different story.

    It's just incredibly inefficient compared to other options, and useless in specific content (FoT, Tor Dragons).



  15. #215
    Community Member anivaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycurgus View Post
    No, with modest debuffing a 56+enchantment DC w/58 spell pen actually works reasonably well in EEGH. Necromancy is a different story.

    It's just incredibly inefficient compared to other options, and useless in specific content (FoT, Tor Dragons).
    Yes "modest", meaning not a quick hypno, or CD, but both or more. If they grouped every monster into clusters that would be fine, but most quests they are spead out. So by the time I lay a mind fog, then a dancing sphere, then throw hypno and CD, the LDers and FoTWers already have the mob dead! Which in essence makes me a wasted party slot...
    Cannith - Sorrion - Glassbones - Galodon - Farsnipe
    Sarlona - Glassbones

  16. #216
    Community Member anivaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anivaj View Post
    Yes "modest", meaning not a quick hypno, or CD, but both or more. If they grouped every monster into clusters that would be fine, but most quests they are spead out. So by the time I lay a mind fog, then a dancing sphere, then throw hypno and CD, the LDers and FoTWers already have the mob dead! Which in essence makes me a wasted party slot...
    An 18th life, maxed gear, properly built wasted party slot compared to a first life semi geared FOTM build.
    Cannith - Sorrion - Glassbones - Galodon - Farsnipe
    Sarlona - Glassbones

  17. #217
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightToRemainStupid View Post
    My apologies, I was thinking of scrolls of Crushing Despair. Aside from that, clickies suck anyway for a number of other reasons.

    1. They take up a slot.
    2. They are slow to swap in.
    3. They require more clicking to use.
    4. They can't be quickened.
    5. They share different timers.
    6. They can contribute to a laggier gameplay experience.
    7. They are another thing to keep track of.

    By the way I'm a huge clicky fan, just not in endgame play as part of a caster's debuffing routine.

    As far as DC's go, my 1st life WF AM in Shiradi has low-mid 40's DC's. I can FoD the giants in EE Tor with a single scrolled Enervation, followed by a cast Energy Drain more than 50% of the time. It's just less efficient than Shiradi Magic Missiles, so I save DC casting for having fun when I know I have enough SP left to get to the next shrine.

    Without the Shiradi option for a Wizard, it would be unplayably inefficient unless you are desperate and it's your only toon. Even then over time you will suffer the inefficiencies of the trade-offs you made to get vialbe EE DC's compared to the staying power of Shiradi. Also, with a Shattermantle thrower, I can bypass any non-Drow SR on my 1st lifer with just items, feats and enhancements.

    Just to give those lacking experience in EE's a reference point.
    I don't agree with the unplayably inefficient part. Its not anywhere near that extreme simply due to using clickies, which are 0 mana debuffs. Yes its more actions per minute, but this doesn't take away from efficiency. In fact it can be made to add to it in a situation where using killzone tactics, where more mobs are CCd.

    Shiradi is better timewise if soloing, because any first life caster will do. Its also good for the folks who were complaining about how the 2 frenzy buttons on a barbarian should just renew themselves every minute, because they cant be bothered to click them.

    Stuff like Shiradi will always be the easy button. Why? Because it does damage, and damage will always be the sure fire way to kill mobs. DC based stuff works better in some situations and doesn't work at all in some situations - but damage will always get the job done.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    This is not what the people that actually played DC casters in the content are saying. That is what you are saying. The one trick pony is Shiradi casting because that is all that makes sense which is extremely limiting. People are saying they don't want to be forced to use the one-trick pony. I don't. I would like to see a more diverse set of casting builds work.

    You are speculatively arguing with people sharing their actual experience. Maybe it would be a worthwhile exercise to bring a DC caster into the content and see how it goes.
    FYI, toons have lead "no heal" EE High Road chains many nights on GLand using DC-casting and no Shiradi. Went pretty nice and smooth as I recall.

  19. #219
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    FYI, toons have lead "no heal" EE High Road chains many nights on GLand using DC-casting and no Shiradi. Went pretty nice and smooth as I recall.
    Yes, DC casting is more efficient in 90% of EE content. In Gianthold, it's a bit of a wash - and because they wind up casting their FoD or CoD just a few seconds too late for the mob to still be alive... the metagamers are up in arms. How dare a ranged combat destiny impinge on THEIR easy button!!!

    No one is forcing anyone to use Shiradi. That is akin to claiming that because a few builds are far more powerful than others, everyone has to use JUST those few builds - and no barbarians allowed. It's a misdirection on their part - they aren't here to truly claim they are pigeonholed. They are here to grub for a similar easy button.

    Shiradi casters are NOT more powerful. They are easier in EE - that is it. I have yet to see a Shiradi caster perform beyond decently in epic hard content, and many rangers/monkchers put them to complete shame in both EH and EE. All they are doing is trading their class style (burst DPS) for another class' style (sustainable DPS).

    Running Gianthold on EE more often than someone else does not give you better insight into the game. It gives you LESS, because you don't see what the MAJORITY of people are doing, and you don't have any reference frames to compare. No one should be FoD-ing giants on a regular basis. The fact that it DOES happen is moronic, and needs fixed.

  20. #220
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    nning Gianthold on EE more often than someone else does not give you better insight into the game.
    It gives you insight on what the good players are doing, the rest of them don't matter.

    LOL - you actually compared how Shiradis do in EH content? Content so easy that I've literally talked my 5 year-old through completing?

    And you expect any of your opinions to have any value?
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 08-02-2013 at 11:17 AM.

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