1) The ability to disable one or more opponents with a single CC spell,
2) The ability to outright kill one or more opponents with a single instakill spell,
3) The ability to light up a boss from a distance with stacking Niacs or Eldars, or AoE without taking aggro, and no damage whatsoever.
4) The ability to turn one or more enemies into allies, again, with a single spell.
When all that fails, they can then revert to bare-knuckling their way through content with ranged spells, DoTs, and so on. They may run out of mana before they hit the shrine, but they can always quaff pots.
Melees have weapons procs, the best of whom – to the best of my knowledge – won’t even trigger on trash mobs because of the elevated saving throws, and have no choice to take damage. Their CC is, at beast Cleave / Great Cleave. Stat damage effects are severely reduced. Direct attacks often times have DR applied to them. They don’t have a backup plan to bare-knuckle it when everything else fails; bare-knuckling it is plan A, B, C, AND the backup plan.
(That being said, I haven’t run any of my melees in EE, so someone tell me where I’m wrong here.)
So reducing melee’s to-hit chances are totally unfair to melees in general.
(I know I’m supposed to have a hall pass to post here, but I was a bit of rebel in public school, and that carried over into my adult years.)
Lowering saves would just open the door to more viable builds, it wouldn't make it any easier to those who have already found the easy-buttons.
Does that make sense?
They should have to debuff, or understand that landing the spell is not going to be guaranteed. The issue with the game today regarding this discussion is that the players who complain about DC casting want it to be 100% success and if it isnt, they declare it useless - which is not true by a long shot.
I have quite a few of those clickies. People sell them to the vendors, and they drop regularly. I keep all the same-slot ones on each toon.
You have useful CC casting. Its just not a one button push 100% success rate thing. If you want to compare to melee, they have to prep their ability by pushing 50 buttons and then activate it, then make sure they kill at least one worthy mob in the allotted time frame.
People cant be bothered to push 2 buttons? They can leave the CC casting to those who will, because theres no issue for those who do, only for those who dont. Theres a few zones that need mobs to have a weak save, but other than that, its fine.
Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.
Even if it takes one energy drain and one heightened FoD to kill one monster, which takes around 100 SP, its not worth it. An average caster has around 3000 SP, with one shrine average per quest probably total of 6000 SP. That's around 60 total monsters. How many quests have only 60 monsters? To save SP, a caster must be able to kill multiple monsters with one spell or relegated to just haste, web and hold bots. Heck, with the new expansion, this may not be even be needed!
I have, see above. The damage on EE is insane, but there is always dodge, incorporal, blur, displacement clickies, stunning, and grave wrappings.Try making a meele and engage some GH EE mobs in hand to hand combat in case you rly don't undestand what's the difference between EE and EH for meeles.
Melees can roll on Pinion, get haste items or clickies and take eternal running through the whole quest Master's Blitz or Unbridled Fury. Do you not agree they are OP as well?I do agree on fury manyshot and shiradi arcanes being op... but we are not talking about them here and the few broken things in this game are no argument.
Last edited by Tyrande; 07-30-2013 at 05:07 PM.
With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility
Well, I just started a Wiz trying to use DC casting, the result isnt very good.
36 Int, +2 Item, +2 feat, +2 Vamp, 9 heighten, +9 spell pen, and enchantment spells rarely work at level on elite (level 19 currently).
Pre epics that can maybe be improved by 1 Bard and 1 Wiz past life and 2 more from Int (spell resistance isnt that much of a problem so far). The success rate on half the quests is close to zero and those also being the quests that arent totally trivial, where those types of spells could for once be more helpful than straight dps casting.
The only way to help that seems to be to give them a bunch of negative levels, which isnt even remotely sp efficient and also makes FoD the better option afterwards.
I dont really see a point in trying to build up such a char, except maybe for some soloing fun every now and then.
Essentially DC casting seems to have been left out in the race between player dps, hp/sp regeneration abilities and mob hp/dps.
poison, slowburst, stunning, combat mastery, ...
Not to mention the latest OP prefixes and suffixes... Just not too many melees are interested in helping casters with cursespewing/improve cursespewing or level draining (the exception being Nightmare) or improve shattemantle.
With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility
While with EE GH, they kind of made a whole playstyle that some enjoyed alot irrelevant.
Edit: But it's still weird... i've seen one wizard insta killing alot (thinking sheers at this point even if buffs duration pointed that it wasn't). Also some people telling me that their DC casting is effective while I had to reroll my Wiz into a shiradi sorc at that point to keep crushing content. Those last didn't prove it to me though... so I don't know I guess it's how people determines what is good enought or not that makes for such different perspectives.
Last edited by Azarddoze; 07-30-2013 at 06:12 PM.
Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por
...And then there was silence
Let me tell you a story when the level cap was still 10 and vorpals were rare. Someone looted a vorpal sickle and was holding monsters and one shot them with vorpal. You asked, if the caster DC is high enough, why didn't he or she just PK the monster? Well, weapon and SP efficiency! That player probably still have more than half the mana bar left after completing the quest with that strategy and weapon.
That is because they always works and kills the monsters, even on EE. My monk even prefer the grave wrappings more than the relic Antipode sometimes for EE. Why? Because it always works in CC'ing or killing.Many people love grave wraps and nightmare for trash mobs.
I have proven that weapons can always render monsters helpless or even death... so, there should be some misses built-in.
Last edited by Tyrande; 07-30-2013 at 06:27 PM. Reason: added story
With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility
Amrath has probably some of the highest saves of the old pre u14 game
Cannith the bladeforged pallies have pretty good saves too if I remember right
18 starting int
4 level ups at 19
1 exceptional on dt
2 insightful on tod ring
2 ship buff
3 wiz enhancements
1 human adaptability
would be 41 int
at level 20
1 level up
2 lich form (better than vamp form for less damage incoming from light, better int etc. It loses 1 enchantment dc but gains one to every other spell school from int, and an additional 1 to necro)
1 from going to to a +7 item instead of +6
1 profane from litany
so for enchantment dc this would be 19 mod, 19 heightened spell, 2 feat, 2 item
This would be a 42 enchant dc at level 20 with no ed's on a first life toon.
Your 36 int with vamp form atm is
13 mod, 19 spell, 2 feat, 2 item for a total of 36.
This may not seem like much but those 6 points means that the better gear gives a 30% better success rate.
This means your main problem is gear and trying to do at level quests on elite in what was for a long time part of the end game where things were getting somewhat balanced around caped casters with the gear listed.
Otherwise, you go conjuration your CC is Grease, maybe Sleet Storm, and Web. and Glitterdust. Evocatiion leaves you Gust of Wind, Greater Shout, Electric Loop, and Sonic Blast. Greater Shout isn't going to work in GH quests because it is linked to fort saves, The others I haven't really tried. Everything else pretty much has SR.
So now your viable builds have to get decent DCs and decent spell pen numbers. Or, you ask the devs to reduce both. I don't see the latter as a decent solution.
I remember you saying you don't consider destinies to be essential part of the game, is that correct ?
So still running ( surviving ) those EE without any destiny must give you great insight into balance good sir .
Last edited by Encair; 07-30-2013 at 06:52 PM.
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