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  1. #1
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    Default Why effective DC-based CC is good for the game

    I spent a long time working on my Wizard by getting 3 past lfie wizards and 3 past life favored souls for one reason. To have an effective enough DC so that I can help get my friends through difficult epic content which used to be regular epics and now is EE.

    CC isn't totally useless, but it's much less useful in newer content and I must be much more selective than i used to be when forming an EE party. I used to be able to take 3-4 from an LFM without a problem, but without effective CC it's not worth taking a chance letting someone in the party that isn't an experieinced EE vet.

    In motu CC requires a good DC and good spell pen, but it works. And I can take a random barbarian without worrying that he is going to use too much healer mana. I understand a small segment of the players want EE to be more difficulty, but I don't think tools like CC should be ineffective.

    CC is the DC-based spell system that encourages inclusion more than any other. It helps save healer sp and keeps damage of party members to a minimum.

    Turbine, please consider reviewing the effectiveness of CC DC-casting Before U20.

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    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unacceptable View Post
    I spent a long time working on my Wizard by getting 3 past lfie wizards and 3 past life favored souls for one reason. To have an effective enough DC so that I can help get my friends through difficult epic content which used to be regular epics and now is EE.

    CC isn't totally useless, but it's much less useful in newer content and I must be much more selective than i used to be when forming an EE party. I used to be able to take 3-4 from an LFM without a problem, but without effective CC it's not worth taking a chance letting someone in the party that isn't an experieinced EE vet.

    In motu CC requires a good DC and good spell pen, but it works. And I can take a random barbarian without worrying that he is going to use too much healer mana. I understand a small segment of the players want EE to be more difficulty, but I don't think tools like CC should be ineffective.

    CC is the DC-based spell system that encourages inclusion more than any other. It helps save healer sp and keeps damage of party members to a minimum.

    Turbine, please consider reviewing the effectiveness of CC DC-casting Before U20.
    Use of CC is fine, but I find insta killing extremely lame. Imo everybody in the group should play a role in killing mobs, insta killing limits teamplay severely. If you can make CC work properly without increasing viability of instakill spells then I'm all for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unacceptable View Post
    CC isn't totally useless, but it's much less useful in newer content
    <snip>
    I don't think tools like CC should be ineffective.
    <snip>
    CC is the DC-based spell system that encourages inclusion more than any other.
    <snip>
    Turbine, please consider reviewing the effectiveness of CC DC-casting Before U20.
    Agreed, /signed, etc..

    Quote Originally Posted by unacceptable View Post
    I spent a long time working on my Wizard by getting 3 past lfie wizards and 3 past life favored souls for one reason. To have an effective enough DC
    Note if you wanted to have a better DC, after a single Wizard life, your time would have been better spent on Cleric and Sorc lives, to actually directly raise your DCs in Conjuration (WEB!!!) and Evocation (Electric Loop, e.g.), with maybe a single Bard life thrown in, for the option to further raise your DC in Enchantment.

    More than 1 Wiz life, and any FvS lives, while helping Spell Pen, do nothing for your DC.

  4. #4
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Use of CC is fine, but I find insta killing extremely lame. Imo everybody in the group should play a role in killing mobs, insta killing limits teamplay severely. If you can make CC work properly without increasing viability of instakill spells then I'm all for it.
    Mobs should have a weak save, in the level 24 EEs they do not and that is just plain stupid.

    I don't mind not being able to finger scrags in EE deeps because they've got weak will saves and can be danced . . .etc . . . but when you raise all saves so web is useless, dance-ball barely works, and it requires too much fort-save debuffing for insta-kills to be useful THE GAME IS BROKEN.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Use of CC is fine, but I find insta killing extremely lame. Imo everybody in the group should play a role in killing mobs, insta killing limits teamplay severely. If you can make CC work properly without increasing viability of instakill spells then I'm all for it.
    What so lame about instakill spells? Instant kill is a form of permanent CC.

    A wizard that wasted so much time for past lives should be granted good instakill viability.

    Also, as the troll mentioned above, its not instakilling is lame. Its all forms of CC is not working due to crazy saves.

    Also, with some juggernauts and FvS wielding an ESOS in master's blitz, fury shotters soloing EEs with ease, why wouldn't instakilling or CCs be working as well?

    Without good CCs, you can only take players who have good self healing and self defense or can kill the monsters before the monsters kill them. But if the players you take can do that, they are probably off to soloing due to dungeon scaling.
    Last edited by Tyrande; 07-29-2013 at 09:34 AM.

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    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    Yes, please bring DC casting back. The Mob saves need to be looked into and tweaked.
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    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Most EEs do not require effective CC to complete.

    A few might... since they have fights with huge amounts of mobs at once... no real safe spots to engage a few at a time... and also include large numbers of caster. (and to a lesser degree of danger, archers)

    I'm on the fence as to how Turbine should handle spell DCs and the most difficult content.

    I stilll think a hard cap (by level) on player abilities woul dbe the best choice for the game. This way they can design a dungeon to challengeboth casual and hardcore gamers appropriately.

    The second idea I keep preaching (on deaf ears. ) is for the devs to mix up monsters in the same dungeons.
    Those same fights I mention above would be quite different if we could CC some of the monsters with ease, but then have to find other ways to handle some of the other monsters in the same fight.



    I do agree that effective CC is good for the game.

    But there should not be a one tactic solves all problems method of completing quests.

    Of course you mention different saves.....
    Yes, most monsters should have a weak save.... Especially in out current epics that take normal monsters and beef them up to supermen.

    Why does a bandit... random thug off the streeet suddenly gain superpowers in epics?
    Why do Wolves?!

    I am perfectly ok with Demons and Devils....etc. But not normal common monsters.

    (Why haven't these SuperDrow taken over the world yet?)



    Anyway... yes. players... all players... should have CC options to use in quests.
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    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

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    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    I saw this coming the day it was explained to us that higher CR = higher HP, saves, and attributes - based on a system for generating mobs rather than humans datamining the system.

    1. Datamine the average DC well geared toons have.
    2. Make that DC land 60-70% of the time in any quest. (wanting it to always work will require debuffing mobs)
    3. The same formula of specific mob types having specific weak saves should still apply as it used to.
    ...3a. Melee mobs have weak will save.
    ...3b. Caster mobs have weak fort save.
    4. ???
    5. Profit.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    ...3a. Melee mobs have weak will save.
    ...3b. Caster mobs have weak fort save.
    That sure as hell ain't true.

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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post

    I do agree that effective CC is good for the game.

    But there should not be a one tactic solves all problems method of completing quests.
    I've removed the rest of your post because it's rambling, but on these points the BEST OPTIONS IN EE RIGHT NOW ARE NO-SAVE ABILITIES.

    This is dumb.

    It breaks the game because it removes the options available to players, I don't understand how people can't see this.

  11. #11
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    That sure as hell ain't true.
    It is for 95+ percent of the game, and has been for 7 + years. Youre over analyzing one specific difficulty, and even then, most of the EE quests share what I posted. The ones that do not need to be examined and corrected.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #12
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    It is for 95+ percent of the game, and has been for 7 + years. Youre over analyzing one specific difficulty, and even then, most of the EE quests share what I posted. The ones that do not need to be examined and corrected.
    Got it, I meant to say "not true now."

  13. #13
    Community Member anivaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I saw this coming the day it was explained to us that higher CR = higher HP, saves, and attributes - based on a system for generating mobs rather than humans datamining the system.

    1. Datamine the average DC well geared toons have.
    2. Make that DC land 60-70% of the time in any quest. (wanting it to always work will require debuffing mobs)
    3. The same formula of specific mob types having specific weak saves should still apply as it used to.
    ...3a. Melee mobs have weak will save.
    ...3b. Caster mobs have weak fort save.
    4. ???
    5. Profit.
    If it takes more than one debuff then it's not even worth it sp wise. 70% landing with a properly built toon with PLs and top gear is about right. Throw a CD and that adds 25% on enchantment spells, so that would give them a 5% chance to pass the save + they get a resave every 2 seconds. To me, a well built toon with all the gear and PLs, monsters should pass on only a 20 with a debuff. (This is trash mobs we are talking about here, not bosses.)
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  14. #14
    Community Member anivaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anivaj View Post
    If it takes more than one debuff then it's not even worth it sp wise. 70% landing with a properly built toon with PLs and top gear is about right. Throw a CD and that adds 25% on enchantment spells, so that would give them a 5% chance to pass the save + they get a resave every 2 seconds. To me, a well built toon with all the gear and PLs, monsters should pass on only a 20 with a debuff. (This is trash mobs we are talking about here, not bosses.)
    Oops, actually that plan sucks as CD's -5 to will only lasts for 15 seconds. So after 15 seconds, a top geared, PLed, DC caster would fail their subsequent checks 70% of the time. I dont think I like that after all that effort.

    I'm ok with instakilling not being 95% without debuffing, but holds should do their job or you're better off adding another Juggernaut to the party than a caster that cant do their job. Just my 2 cents...
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  15. #15
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anivaj View Post
    If it takes more than one debuff then it's not even worth it sp wise. 70% landing with a properly built toon with PLs and top gear is about right. Throw a CD and that adds 25% on enchantment spells, so that would give them a 5% chance to pass the save + they get a resave every 2 seconds. To me, a well built toon with all the gear and PLs, monsters should pass on only a 20 with a debuff. (This is trash mobs we are talking about here, not bosses.)
    D&D never intended people to have no fail (or 5% fail due to hard coded rule) spells landing. Monsters shouldnt only pass on a 20 as a blanket statement. The player should be made to target the specific mobs weak save for this to occur. Ogre barbarians and minotaurs should LOL @ attempts to FOD them due to having a high fort save. The entire idea that a D&D game should be played like a munchkin MMO where we build for the same one ability and it works on all mobs all the time is not in line with intended game design.

    SP wise? How about 2 @0 sp + 1 other debuff + kill zone tactics. hypno clickies + crushing despair clickies + SOD, in a huge cluster, then lay down the mass hold. Works like a charm. Mana per mob CCd is low because kill zone tactics are being used. This works RIGHT NOW in GH in EE. The issue I have observed in game is that people cant be bothered to learn debuff stacking or apply it regularly because they got used to zerg plowing the rest of the game and want EE to run the same way.

    Odd, when there was nothing challenging for higher end players they complained about it. Now that stuff is challenging, they cant be bothered to do what is needed to defeat said challenge. Its not a matter of being under powered - its a matter of not being willingto click 2 @ 0 mana cost clickie debuffs in order to significantly raise the chance of landing a spell. Everyone just jumps off the DC bandwagon and goes shiradi, because its easier....but then they complain about that too.......because shiradi can be built to be effective sans having to TR.
    Last edited by Chai; 07-29-2013 at 11:26 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #16
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    D&D never intended people to have no fail (or 5% fail due to hard coded rule) spells landing. Monsters shouldnt only pass on a 20 as a blanket statement. The player should be made to target the specific mobs weak save for this to occur. Ogre barbarians and minotaurs should LOL @ attempts to FOD them due to having a high fort save. The entire idea that a D&D game should be played like a munchkin MMO where we build for the same one ability and it works on all mobs all the time is not in line with intended game design.

    SP wise? How about 2 @0 sp + 1 other debuff + kill zone tactics. hypno clickies + crushing despair clickies + SOD, in a huge cluster, then lay down the mass hold. Works like a charm. Mana per mob CCd is low because kill zone tactics are being used. This works RIGHT NOW in GH in EE. The issue I have observed in game is that people cant be bothered to learn debuff stacking or apply it regularly because they got used to zerg plowing the rest of the game and want EE to run the same way.

    Odd, when there was nothing challenging for higher end players they complained about it. Now that stuff is challenging, they cant be bothered to do what is needed to defeat said challenge. Its not a matter of being under powered - its a matter of not being willingto click 2 @ 0 mana cost clickie debuffs in order to significantly raise the chance of landing a spell. Everyone just jumps off the DC bandwagon and goes shiradi, because its easier....but then they complain about that too.......because shiradi can be built to be effective sans having to TR.
    +1

    I usually spec Necro and Enchantment. I generally have no problems with mobs on EH (never really ran EE on this life) with either instakills or dancing balls.

    Most mobs have a weakness. The whole point of being a caster is knowing what weaknesses to exploit, and when. Constructs = webs, Casters = instakills (depending on whether they cast Deathblock or not), and so on. And if you hit EE - which is the end-all-be-all difficulty in the game, it should actually be "tough." I know, call me crazy for expecting that...

  17. #17
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    SP wise? How about 2 @0 sp + 1 other debuff + kill zone tactics. hypno clickies + crushing despair clickies + SOD, in a huge cluster, then lay down the mass hold. Works like a charm. Mana per mob CCd is low because kill zone tactics are being used. This works RIGHT NOW in GH in EE. The issue I have observed in game is that people cant be bothered to learn debuff stacking or apply it regularly because they got used to zerg plowing the rest of the game and want EE to run the same way.

    This works, but a better option is 6 self-healing FoTW melees going in there and curb-stomping the mobs with no casters at all.

    Or 6 shiradi Sorcs (wizards after the ENH pass) with MM spam and nerve venom.

    What you stated above does work, it just doesn't work well enough to be close to a best practice.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 07-29-2013 at 11:37 AM.

  18. #18
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    +1

    I usually spec Necro and Enchantment. I generally have no problems with mobs on EH (never really ran EE on this life) with either instakills or dancing balls.

    Most mobs have a weakness. The whole point of being a caster is knowing what weaknesses to exploit, and when. Constructs = webs, Casters = instakills (depending on whether they cast Deathblock or not), and so on. And if you hit EE - which is the end-all-be-all difficulty in the game, it should actually be "tough." I know, call me crazy for expecting that...
    Do you even run EEs at all? I apologize if I'm wrong but I swear I saw you say you don't in another thread.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Use of CC is fine, but I find insta killing extremely lame. Imo everybody in the group should play a role in killing mobs, insta killing limits teamplay severely. If you can make CC work properly without increasing viability of instakill spells then I'm all for it.
    You mean like how my finger DC of 56 lands 5% of the time and my monk's stunning fist DC of 58 lands 95% of the time in Gianthold?

    Yeah, I think they've already put some work in on that. I think mobs are getting that +10 or whatever to their saves while their HP are full that got mentioned a while back, and it is screwing over mass hold etc. as well.

    Oh, and wail continues to not work, lucky to even hit 2 targets with it, let alone do anything to them.

  20. #20
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    Yeah, I think they've already put some work in on that. I think mobs are getting that +10 or whatever to their saves while their HP are full that got mentioned a while back, and it is screwing over mass hold etc. as well.

    Oh, and wail continues to not work, lucky to even hit 2 targets with it, let alone do anything to them.
    You know, I'd actually be completely okay with that as long as it was actually advertised as such.

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