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  1. #1
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    Default Why effective DC-based CC is good for the game

    I spent a long time working on my Wizard by getting 3 past lfie wizards and 3 past life favored souls for one reason. To have an effective enough DC so that I can help get my friends through difficult epic content which used to be regular epics and now is EE.

    CC isn't totally useless, but it's much less useful in newer content and I must be much more selective than i used to be when forming an EE party. I used to be able to take 3-4 from an LFM without a problem, but without effective CC it's not worth taking a chance letting someone in the party that isn't an experieinced EE vet.

    In motu CC requires a good DC and good spell pen, but it works. And I can take a random barbarian without worrying that he is going to use too much healer mana. I understand a small segment of the players want EE to be more difficulty, but I don't think tools like CC should be ineffective.

    CC is the DC-based spell system that encourages inclusion more than any other. It helps save healer sp and keeps damage of party members to a minimum.

    Turbine, please consider reviewing the effectiveness of CC DC-casting Before U20.

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    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unacceptable View Post
    I spent a long time working on my Wizard by getting 3 past lfie wizards and 3 past life favored souls for one reason. To have an effective enough DC so that I can help get my friends through difficult epic content which used to be regular epics and now is EE.

    CC isn't totally useless, but it's much less useful in newer content and I must be much more selective than i used to be when forming an EE party. I used to be able to take 3-4 from an LFM without a problem, but without effective CC it's not worth taking a chance letting someone in the party that isn't an experieinced EE vet.

    In motu CC requires a good DC and good spell pen, but it works. And I can take a random barbarian without worrying that he is going to use too much healer mana. I understand a small segment of the players want EE to be more difficulty, but I don't think tools like CC should be ineffective.

    CC is the DC-based spell system that encourages inclusion more than any other. It helps save healer sp and keeps damage of party members to a minimum.

    Turbine, please consider reviewing the effectiveness of CC DC-casting Before U20.
    Use of CC is fine, but I find insta killing extremely lame. Imo everybody in the group should play a role in killing mobs, insta killing limits teamplay severely. If you can make CC work properly without increasing viability of instakill spells then I'm all for it.

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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Use of CC is fine, but I find insta killing extremely lame. Imo everybody in the group should play a role in killing mobs, insta killing limits teamplay severely. If you can make CC work properly without increasing viability of instakill spells then I'm all for it.
    Mobs should have a weak save, in the level 24 EEs they do not and that is just plain stupid.

    I don't mind not being able to finger scrags in EE deeps because they've got weak will saves and can be danced . . .etc . . . but when you raise all saves so web is useless, dance-ball barely works, and it requires too much fort-save debuffing for insta-kills to be useful THE GAME IS BROKEN.

  4. #4
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    Yes, please bring DC casting back. The Mob saves need to be looked into and tweaked.
    Characters: Celemia / Tukson / Thau (Broken link) / Atremus

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    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Most EEs do not require effective CC to complete.

    A few might... since they have fights with huge amounts of mobs at once... no real safe spots to engage a few at a time... and also include large numbers of caster. (and to a lesser degree of danger, archers)

    I'm on the fence as to how Turbine should handle spell DCs and the most difficult content.

    I stilll think a hard cap (by level) on player abilities woul dbe the best choice for the game. This way they can design a dungeon to challengeboth casual and hardcore gamers appropriately.

    The second idea I keep preaching (on deaf ears. ) is for the devs to mix up monsters in the same dungeons.
    Those same fights I mention above would be quite different if we could CC some of the monsters with ease, but then have to find other ways to handle some of the other monsters in the same fight.



    I do agree that effective CC is good for the game.

    But there should not be a one tactic solves all problems method of completing quests.

    Of course you mention different saves.....
    Yes, most monsters should have a weak save.... Especially in out current epics that take normal monsters and beef them up to supermen.

    Why does a bandit... random thug off the streeet suddenly gain superpowers in epics?
    Why do Wolves?!

    I am perfectly ok with Demons and Devils....etc. But not normal common monsters.

    (Why haven't these SuperDrow taken over the world yet?)



    Anyway... yes. players... all players... should have CC options to use in quests.
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    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

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    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    I saw this coming the day it was explained to us that higher CR = higher HP, saves, and attributes - based on a system for generating mobs rather than humans datamining the system.

    1. Datamine the average DC well geared toons have.
    2. Make that DC land 60-70% of the time in any quest. (wanting it to always work will require debuffing mobs)
    3. The same formula of specific mob types having specific weak saves should still apply as it used to.
    ...3a. Melee mobs have weak will save.
    ...3b. Caster mobs have weak fort save.
    4. ???
    5. Profit.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post

    I do agree that effective CC is good for the game.

    But there should not be a one tactic solves all problems method of completing quests.
    I've removed the rest of your post because it's rambling, but on these points the BEST OPTIONS IN EE RIGHT NOW ARE NO-SAVE ABILITIES.

    This is dumb.

    It breaks the game because it removes the options available to players, I don't understand how people can't see this.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Use of CC is fine, but I find insta killing extremely lame. Imo everybody in the group should play a role in killing mobs, insta killing limits teamplay severely. If you can make CC work properly without increasing viability of instakill spells then I'm all for it.
    What so lame about instakill spells? Instant kill is a form of permanent CC.

    A wizard that wasted so much time for past lives should be granted good instakill viability.

    Also, as the troll mentioned above, its not instakilling is lame. Its all forms of CC is not working due to crazy saves.

    Also, with some juggernauts and FvS wielding an ESOS in master's blitz, fury shotters soloing EEs with ease, why wouldn't instakilling or CCs be working as well?

    Without good CCs, you can only take players who have good self healing and self defense or can kill the monsters before the monsters kill them. But if the players you take can do that, they are probably off to soloing due to dungeon scaling.
    Last edited by Tyrande; 07-29-2013 at 09:34 AM.

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    Community Member HernandoCortez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrande View Post
    What so lame about instakill spells? Instant kill is a form of permanent CC.
    Indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Use of CC is fine, but I find insta killing extremely lame. Imo everybody in the group should play a role in killing mobs, insta killing limits teamplay severely. If you can make CC work properly without increasing viability of instakill spells then I'm all for it.
    You mean like how my finger DC of 56 lands 5% of the time and my monk's stunning fist DC of 58 lands 95% of the time in Gianthold?

    Yeah, I think they've already put some work in on that. I think mobs are getting that +10 or whatever to their saves while their HP are full that got mentioned a while back, and it is screwing over mass hold etc. as well.

    Oh, and wail continues to not work, lucky to even hit 2 targets with it, let alone do anything to them.

  11. #11
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    Yeah, I think they've already put some work in on that. I think mobs are getting that +10 or whatever to their saves while their HP are full that got mentioned a while back, and it is screwing over mass hold etc. as well.

    Oh, and wail continues to not work, lucky to even hit 2 targets with it, let alone do anything to them.
    You know, I'd actually be completely okay with that as long as it was actually advertised as such.

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    Allowing any class to cc 95% of the mobs until death is not going to be good for any game. It's DnD, not whack a mole. Things need to fight back and show off their uniqueness. This is why Shiradi is better than allowing DC casting.

    Shiradi cc's only one or a few mobs at a time. So some of a group of mobs can fight back. The only way to cc groups of mobs is spamming meteor, but you will go oom.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 08-02-2013 at 05:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Shiradi cc's only one or a few mobs at a time. So some of a group of mobs can fight back. The only way to cc groups of mobs is spamming meteor, but you will go oom.
    In case you are being serious, force missiles. force missiles SLA, sleet storm, ice storm, cloudkill etc.
    Unmetaed spam on dumped DC first life no gear toon will be more effective ( and SP efficient ) than multi past life specialized top geared caster ( or divines, or melee tactics ).
    Tell us again how it's more D&D. Shiradi bs has nothing to do with casting, spell, class, debuff, quest knowledge or skill.

    People that spent years on their toons don't want easy buttons, but being at least comparable instead of TRing into stupid mental toughnessed robot sorcs. "Casting", my a$$.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by unacceptable View Post
    CC isn't totally useless, but it's much less useful in newer content
    <snip>
    I don't think tools like CC should be ineffective.
    <snip>
    CC is the DC-based spell system that encourages inclusion more than any other.
    <snip>
    Turbine, please consider reviewing the effectiveness of CC DC-casting Before U20.
    Agreed, /signed, etc..

    Quote Originally Posted by unacceptable View Post
    I spent a long time working on my Wizard by getting 3 past lfie wizards and 3 past life favored souls for one reason. To have an effective enough DC
    Note if you wanted to have a better DC, after a single Wizard life, your time would have been better spent on Cleric and Sorc lives, to actually directly raise your DCs in Conjuration (WEB!!!) and Evocation (Electric Loop, e.g.), with maybe a single Bard life thrown in, for the option to further raise your DC in Enchantment.

    More than 1 Wiz life, and any FvS lives, while helping Spell Pen, do nothing for your DC.

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    Community Member DynaTheCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unacceptable View Post
    I understand a small segment of the players want EE to be more difficulty, but I don't think tools like CC should be ineffective.
    That's the deal.

    A small segment of the players want EE to be more difficult... because it should be that way.

    Epic Elite is meant for many average players or a few elite players. In some instances, a few solo players. EE is fine the way it is. Not too hard, not too impossible.

    A small segment of the players (wizards) have high enough CC to have effective EE Enchantment DC.

    So... if you want EE workable CC, then you should focus on getting it. Because it is obtainable.....

    It's the fortitude saves in some EEs (EGH especially) that has become almost unbearably high. Albeit, anyone with semi-decent necro DC can still 1 energy drain + 1 finger a mob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DynaTheCat View Post
    That's the deal.

    A small segment of the players want EE to be more difficult... because it should be that way.

    Epic Elite is meant for many average players or a few elite players. In some instances, a few solo players. EE is fine the way it is. Not too hard, not too impossible.

    A small segment of the players (wizards) have high enough CC to have effective EE Enchantment DC.

    So... if you want EE workable CC, then you should focus on getting it. Because it is obtainable.....

    It's the fortitude saves in some EEs (EGH especially) that has become almost unbearably high. Albeit, anyone with semi-decent necro DC can still 1 energy drain + 1 finger a mob.
    DC casting iis a bad choice for the newer EEs. I think it's bad for the game because now I have to exclude many people from quests unless tney have one of the narrow builds that work well for EE. CC allows a larger variety of builds to participate in EE content instead of it effectively being a byoh party of shiradi casters, monkchers and juggernauts..

    The current EE system is restricting builds. That makes the game less fun.

  17. #17
    Community Member PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DynaTheCat View Post

    It's the fortitude saves in some EEs (EGH especially) that has become almost unbearably high. Albeit, anyone with semi-decent necro DC can still 1 energy drain + 1 finger a mob.
    I've seen a lot of this complaining and I still don't get it. Was there some kind of recent change? I land cometfalls and greater command unheightened on a non-enchantment specced cleric all the time. Earthquake works as well. (Ton of past lives, though.) Could the mobs just have paralysis resistance? That would explain mass hold in particular not working.

    Anybody tried charms/dominates?
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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    I've seen a lot of this complaining and I still don't get it. Was there some kind of recent change? I land cometfalls and greater command unheightened on a non-enchantment specced cleric all the time. Earthquake works as well. (Ton of past lives, though.) Could the mobs just have paralysis resistance? That would explain mass hold in particular not working.

    Anybody tried charms/dominates?
    Are you talking about Epic Elite GH? That's what people are talking about, not heroic.

  19. #19
    Community Member PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Are you talking about Epic Elite GH? That's what people are talking about, not heroic.
    Um, yes. I started running EE Gianthold with a friend of mine several weeks after it came out when the first furor of OMG CASTERS CAN'T DO ANYTHING IN HERE!!! started up, so I was really truly not expecting any of my spells to hit, ever. They did. My character wasn't in any remote way specced for DC casting on enchantment, but Greater Command was effective enough on groups of mobs to really help out.

    Unless the devs heard all the screaming and decided to respond by INCREASING the mob saving throws, I really just don't get this at all. Hell, I've SEEN casters run in there and hold everything/insta-kill most things. So WHAT is the DEAL here?
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  20. #20
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    Um, yes. I started running EE Gianthold with a friend of mine several weeks after it came out when the first furor of OMG CASTERS CAN'T DO ANYTHING IN HERE!!! started up, so I was really truly not expecting any of my spells to hit, ever. They did. My character wasn't in any remote way specced for DC casting on enchantment, but Greater Command was effective enough on groups of mobs to really help out.
    Which quest/quests? I've seen 50ish enchant work well in some but terribad in others. Some mobs are just flat-out immune to holds, other can't be danced, others can be CCd.

    But everything gets disabled with ED no-save abilities.

    Paper covers Rock.

    Rock break scissors.

    Scissors cuts paper.

    ED no-save abilities trump everything. They just simply work better than every other option despite what some are alleging. That's the point of the OP, DC casting should be a stronger choice than it is.

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