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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I would comment on that but I've been reminded that I am not qualified to comment on this thread.

    But don't let that get out. Let's just keep this between you and me. OK?
    Don't let teh troll keep you down, he's grumpy and needs a hug.

    But he's not wrong about the game being completely different between EH and EE.

  2. #62
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anivaj View Post
    EH is a joke and even a poorly planned wiz can CC in them.

    On your other point....so EEs should be uber hard for DC casters and make their spells fail 35% of the time, but melee shouldnt miss 35% of the time? How is that fair? Melee/ranged DPS loses nothing going from EH to EE. I understand making the DC have to be high for EEs so only well built and played toons can run them. What I don't understand is making well built and grinded toons so ineffectual that it's better to build a first life Shiradi or Juggernaut to run the hardest content. That makes no sense at all...
    Consider that arcanes have the following:

    1) The ability to disable one or more opponents with a single CC spell,
    2) The ability to outright kill one or more opponents with a single instakill spell,
    3) The ability to light up a boss from a distance with stacking Niacs or Eldars, or AoE without taking aggro, and no damage whatsoever.
    4) The ability to turn one or more enemies into allies, again, with a single spell.
    When all that fails, they can then revert to bare-knuckling their way through content with ranged spells, DoTs, and so on. They may run out of mana before they hit the shrine, but they can always quaff pots.

    Melees have weapons procs, the best of whom – to the best of my knowledge – won’t even trigger on trash mobs because of the elevated saving throws, and have no choice to take damage. Their CC is, at beast Cleave / Great Cleave. Stat damage effects are severely reduced. Direct attacks often times have DR applied to them. They don’t have a backup plan to bare-knuckle it when everything else fails; bare-knuckling it is plan A, B, C, AND the backup plan.

    (That being said, I haven’t run any of my melees in EE, so someone tell me where I’m wrong here.)

    So reducing melee’s to-hit chances are totally unfair to melees in general.

    (I know I’m supposed to have a hall pass to post here, but I was a bit of rebel in public school, and that carried over into my adult years.)

  3. #63
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    Don't let teh troll keep you down, he's grumpy and needs a hug.

    But he's not wrong about the game being completely different between EH and EE.
    And that's the thing: I never said it wasn't different. In fact, I agreed that it should be hard.

    (Again, still being a rebel here.)

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    And that's the thing: I never said it wasn't different. In fact, I agreed that it should be hard.

    (Again, still being a rebel here.)
    That's the thing . . . it's not hard once you figure out what works well and stop trying to fight the last war.

    Lowering saves would just open the door to more viable builds, it wouldn't make it any easier to those who have already found the easy-buttons.

    Does that make sense?

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    (That being said, I haven’t run any of my melees in EE, so someone tell me where I’m wrong here.)
    You are mistaken here. Master's Blitz is such absurd damage compared to what a caster can do. Fury has that no-save 10 second knock-down that's amazing.

  6. #66
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anivaj View Post
    So people should screw around with 2 clickies every time they need to mass hold a mob? I'm sorry, but people would rather run an easy button Jugg or Shiradi than mess around with annoying clickies that take an inventory slot. Also how many clickies do you have of those spells? seems like they would run out before you get to a shrine. Clickies are boring and inane. ...
    Easy button? LOL If youre complaining about having to click 2x zero mana cost debuffs, dont ever roll a jugg. You have to cleave and great cleave, then you have to click your bow into the slot, then click adrenaline, then fire the bow, possibly having to click many shot before doing so. My melee arty requires more button pushing to play, not less like you claim.

    They should have to debuff, or understand that landing the spell is not going to be guaranteed. The issue with the game today regarding this discussion is that the players who complain about DC casting want it to be 100% success and if it isnt, they declare it useless - which is not true by a long shot.

    I have quite a few of those clickies. People sell them to the vendors, and they drop regularly. I keep all the same-slot ones on each toon.

    Quote Originally Posted by anivaj View Post
    Melee were not meant to dominate at end game in D&D either. An epic wizard would annihilate an epic fighter in D&D. This game is NOT D&D. Give me back my useful CC casting without annoying clickies and let me be as useful as a Jugg or Shiradi. I don't think this is asking for much...
    An epic PREPARED wizard would beat a melee. An unprepared wizard would die horribly.

    You have useful CC casting. Its just not a one button push 100% success rate thing. If you want to compare to melee, they have to prep their ability by pushing 50 buttons and then activate it, then make sure they kill at least one worthy mob in the allotted time frame.

    People cant be bothered to push 2 buttons? They can leave the CC casting to those who will, because theres no issue for those who do, only for those who dont. Theres a few zones that need mobs to have a weak save, but other than that, its fine.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimalConcreteSledge View Post
    How is something that simply does some dmg comparable to a spell that kills or disables oponent or even worse groups? Did something change since i last played an arcane and now you need to have a dc for your polar ray or black dragon bolt?
    Explain to me why my monk with a wimpy DC of 58 can stunning fist and AoE knock down mobs with Drifting Lotus on EE just fine, may be not 95%, but its effective while doing damage, perhaps 30%+ more damage due to sense weakness; while my DC caster of the same caliber can't finger a mob with the same DC? Heck, my monk doesn't even need a DC to kill things. Hit a mob on critical with Void IV, and he's gone, even non-living or constructs.

    Even if it takes one energy drain and one heightened FoD to kill one monster, which takes around 100 SP, its not worth it. An average caster has around 3000 SP, with one shrine average per quest probably total of 6000 SP. That's around 60 total monsters. How many quests have only 60 monsters? To save SP, a caster must be able to kill multiple monsters with one spell or relegated to just haste, web and hold bots. Heck, with the new expansion, this may not be even be needed!

    Try making a meele and engage some GH EE mobs in hand to hand combat in case you rly don't undestand what's the difference between EE and EH for meeles.
    I have, see above. The damage on EE is insane, but there is always dodge, incorporal, blur, displacement clickies, stunning, and grave wrappings.

    I do agree on fury manyshot and shiradi arcanes being op... but we are not talking about them here and the few broken things in this game are no argument.
    Melees can roll on Pinion, get haste items or clickies and take eternal running through the whole quest Master's Blitz or Unbridled Fury. Do you not agree they are OP as well?
    Last edited by Tyrande; 07-30-2013 at 04:07 PM.

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  8. #68
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    Well, I just started a Wiz trying to use DC casting, the result isnt very good.
    36 Int, +2 Item, +2 feat, +2 Vamp, 9 heighten, +9 spell pen, and enchantment spells rarely work at level on elite (level 19 currently).
    Pre epics that can maybe be improved by 1 Bard and 1 Wiz past life and 2 more from Int (spell resistance isnt that much of a problem so far). The success rate on half the quests is close to zero and those also being the quests that arent totally trivial, where those types of spells could for once be more helpful than straight dps casting.
    The only way to help that seems to be to give them a bunch of negative levels, which isnt even remotely sp efficient and also makes FoD the better option afterwards.
    I dont really see a point in trying to build up such a char, except maybe for some soloing fun every now and then.

    Essentially DC casting seems to have been left out in the race between player dps, hp/sp regeneration abilities and mob hp/dps.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrande View Post
    Let's just make every mob's AC high enough in EE GH that top geared melee and range PCs miss 33% of the time, or hit only 65% of the time and see how loud the complains and whining will be.

    Then there will be people say, why don't use you destruction weapons to make the AC lower?

    ACs on all monsters in DDO have been on the low side. There are all hittable even by the wimpiest of all warriors.
    This would actually make sense if those weapon attacks you speak of always rendered mobs helpless, if not dead.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    This would actually make sense if those weapon attacks you speak of always rendered mobs helpless, if not dead.
    Those weapons can. There are improved paralyzers, Stone Prison/Greater Stone Prison/Corrosive weapons with tendon slice, with limb choppers,
    poison, slowburst, stunning, combat mastery, ...

    Not to mention the latest OP prefixes and suffixes... Just not too many melees are interested in helping casters with cursespewing/improve cursespewing or level draining (the exception being Nightmare) or improve shattemantle.

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  11. #71
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrande View Post
    Those weapons can. There are improved paralyzers, Stone Prison/Greater Stone Prison/Corrosive weapons with tendon slice, with limb choppers,
    poison, slowburst, stunning, combat mastery, ...

    Not to mention the latest OP prefixes and suffixes... Just not too many melees are interested in helping casters with cursespewing/improve cursespewing or level draining (the exception being Nightmare) or improve shattemantle.
    Those cc weapons have about a 5% chance to go off and the mob will save the next chance they get in a couple secs on ee where this conversation is. Poison they're pretty much immune to because of the resistance to stat draining. Many people love grave wraps and nightmare for trash mobs. And everyone that I've seen that can fit it uses a stunning or vertigo item at times when it's needed. Shattermantle is another story though, casters can get enough spen with past lives. Asking a melee to use shattermantle is like asking a caster to level drain so you can use stunning fist, it's backward and won't happen.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by OwenMay View Post
    Well, I just started a Wiz trying to use DC casting, the result isnt very good.36 Int, +2 Item, +2 feat, +2 Vamp, 9 heighten, +9 spell pen, and enchantment spells rarely work at level on elite (level 19 currently).

    Essentially DC casting seems to have been left out in the race between player dps, hp/sp regeneration abilities and mob hp/dps.
    You should know that the discussion here is only about Epic elites. Everyone (I thought) knows that you can land anything easily in heroic content if you build/gear for it as a caster. Past lives are a nice bonus since you can skip most spell pen feats and enhancements but it's not totally game changer.

    While with EE GH, they kind of made a whole playstyle that some enjoyed alot irrelevant.

    Edit: But it's still weird... i've seen one wizard insta killing alot (thinking sheers at this point even if buffs duration pointed that it wasn't). Also some people telling me that their DC casting is effective while I had to reroll my Wiz into a shiradi sorc at that point to keep crushing content. Those last didn't prove it to me though... so I don't know I guess it's how people determines what is good enought or not that makes for such different perspectives.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 07-30-2013 at 05:12 PM.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    I think that's what a lot of people aren't getting - the first-life no-work toons are stronger options than the toons that put a lot of work into their DCs.
    Actually, I think the thing people aren't getting is why anyone would think a well built and geared character should be better than a well played character that debuffs properly and chooses their spots to CC wisely.

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Those cc weapons have about a 5% chance [..]
    Not necessarily. See below, you wrote it yourselves. If you swing the weapons fast enough and often enough (with dual wielding), it will hit all the time. Perhaps, this would be one of the original reasons why vorpal got nerfed from kill on a critical to kill on a confirmed 20 to 1000 damage on a confirmed 20 if > 1000 HP.

    Let me tell you a story when the level cap was still 10 and vorpals were rare. Someone looted a vorpal sickle and was holding monsters and one shot them with vorpal. You asked, if the caster DC is high enough, why didn't he or she just PK the monster? Well, weapon and SP efficiency! That player probably still have more than half the mana bar left after completing the quest with that strategy and weapon.

    Many people love grave wraps and nightmare for trash mobs.
    That is because they always works and kills the monsters, even on EE. My monk even prefer the grave wrappings more than the relic Antipode sometimes for EE. Why? Because it always works in CC'ing or killing.

    I have proven that weapons can always render monsters helpless or even death... so, there should be some misses built-in.
    Last edited by Tyrande; 07-30-2013 at 05:27 PM. Reason: added story

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  15. #75
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OwenMay View Post
    Well, I just started a Wiz trying to use DC casting, the result isnt very good.
    36 Int, +2 Item, +2 feat, +2 Vamp, 9 heighten, +9 spell pen, and enchantment spells rarely work at level on elite (level 19 currently).
    Pre epics that can maybe be improved by 1 Bard and 1 Wiz past life and 2 more from Int (spell resistance isnt that much of a problem so far). The success rate on half the quests is close to zero and those also being the quests that arent totally trivial, where those types of spells could for once be more helpful than straight dps casting.
    The only way to help that seems to be to give them a bunch of negative levels, which isnt even remotely sp efficient and also makes FoD the better option afterwards.
    I dont really see a point in trying to build up such a char, except maybe for some soloing fun every now and then.

    Essentially DC casting seems to have been left out in the race between player dps, hp/sp regeneration abilities and mob hp/dps.
    Are you running iq? Most of those mobs are immune.

    Amrath has probably some of the highest saves of the old pre u14 game

    Cannith the bladeforged pallies have pretty good saves too if I remember right
    18 starting int
    4 level ups at 19
    6 item
    1 exceptional on dt
    2 insightful on tod ring
    2 ship buff
    3 wiz enhancements
    1 human adaptability
    4 tome

    would be 41 int

    at level 20
    1 level up
    2 capstone
    2 lich form (better than vamp form for less damage incoming from light, better int etc. It loses 1 enchantment dc but gains one to every other spell school from int, and an additional 1 to necro)
    1 from going to to a +7 item instead of +6
    1 profane from litany

    48 int

    so for enchantment dc this would be 19 mod, 19 heightened spell, 2 feat, 2 item
    This would be a 42 enchant dc at level 20 with no ed's on a first life toon.

    Your 36 int with vamp form atm is
    13 mod, 19 spell, 2 feat, 2 item for a total of 36.

    This may not seem like much but those 6 points means that the better gear gives a 30% better success rate.

    This means your main problem is gear and trying to do at level quests on elite in what was for a long time part of the end game where things were getting somewhat balanced around caped casters with the gear listed.

  16. #76
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrande View Post
    Not necessarily. See below, you wrote it yourselves. If you swing the weapons fast enough and often enough (with dual wielding), it will hit all the time. Perhaps, this would be one of the original reasons why vorpal got nerfed from kill on a critical to kill on a confirmed 20 to 1000 damage on a confirmed 20 if > 1000 HP.
    Doesn't matter how fast you swing each hit will only succeed with the cc if the mob roles a 1. A couple seconds later they get another role and will save. If you swing fast enough to ever lock down a mob let me know how you do it because even a maxed double strike monk with haste and whatever the eberron version of speed is doesn't swing that fast.

  17. #77
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    That's the thing . . . it's not hard once you figure out what works well and stop trying to fight the last war.

    Lowering saves would just open the door to more viable builds, it wouldn't make it any easier to those who have already found the easy-buttons.

    Does that make sense?
    To an extent. A lot of it depends on what you define as being a "viable build." And even if you define it one way, someone else would define it another - from what I've seen on the boards. Plus CC casting really has two factors to it. We're arguing one side of the equation: DCs. We haven't bothered to argue the other piece which is Spell Pen. A lot of epic mobs have SR. That cuts deep into most builds as your classic CC spells - on the arcane side - come from the Enchantment line. At that point, if you go the straight-ahead way of things, it means making a build for optimized spell pen. You're not going to get that without a pure build or at least a few past lives.

    Otherwise, you go conjuration your CC is Grease, maybe Sleet Storm, and Web. and Glitterdust. Evocatiion leaves you Gust of Wind, Greater Shout, Electric Loop, and Sonic Blast. Greater Shout isn't going to work in GH quests because it is linked to fort saves, The others I haven't really tried. Everything else pretty much has SR.

    So now your viable builds have to get decent DCs and decent spell pen numbers. Or, you ask the devs to reduce both. I don't see the latter as a decent solution.

  18. #78
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    So now your viable builds have to get decent DCs and decent spell pen numbers. Or, you ask the devs to reduce both. I don't see the latter as a decent solution.
    That's still better than current which is:

    Does it have a dc?
    It won't work in ee.

    That means only shiradi is viable.

  19. #79
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    @Squishwizzy.
    I remember you saying you don't consider destinies to be essential part of the game, is that correct ?
    So still running ( surviving ) those EE without any destiny must give you great insight into balance good sir .
    Last edited by Encair; 07-30-2013 at 05:52 PM.
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  20. #80
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    I remember you saying you don't consider destinies to be essential part of the game, is that correct ?
    So still running ( surviving ) those EE without any destiny must give you great insight into balance good sir .
    nvm miscommunication
    Last edited by Charononus; 07-30-2013 at 05:55 PM.

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