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  1. #301
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anivaj View Post
    Who waits around for a full party to run EEGH anyways. With scaling, you are probably better off with 5 fotws instead of 5+1 CCer, or better yet solo melee in LD. The sad fact now adays is that a FoTM build doesnt even need a party anymore, which is what is truly sad about it. We now have all the cleric/FvS soloers converting to the next easy thing to not have to work with the DDO community.
    If those players are that desperate not to group do you really want to have them in pugs with you?

  2. #302
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    So you're qualified to make comments . . . how?

    I'm not saying that to be a jerk but you really need to "live" in EE to see what's broken, what works, and to have an informed opinion as to what should be changed to make the game better.
    Because I understand math?
    Sorry, don't put yourself on a pedestal without backing it up. Simply "doing" something makes no difference if you can't back something up with facts. DC's are talking about numbers and I can talk to you about numbers. Opinions are just that.

  3. #303
    Community Member Lurzifer's Avatar
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    I like this thread, lots of Jugg mentioning lol :P
    Haek N' Slay (©ompletionist Juggernaut / Zeus Life 61 of 61)My Toon is better than your toon.Mitis Mors - Thelanis

  4. #304
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Also, your argument gets worse and worse the less these people know eachother. If we are talking 6 guildmates who play together daily and understand how to work together as a team, then the two scenarios are much closer in comparison.
    You have this backwards Chai. Fury is your safest bet to be useful for ANY party.
    That's why 2 furyshotters kill PoP skelly or End of the road EE boss in a fraction of time of full " balanced" group with "CC" and
    without any deaths.
    Or why mostly furies Citws are the fastest.
    Or EE Blue Dragon is a cake instead of usual nightmare with "balanced" groups.
    Ghallanda

  5. #305
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    You have this backwards Chai. Fury is your safest bet to be useful for ANY party.
    That's why 2 furyshotters kill PoP skelly or End of the road EE boss in a fraction of time of full " balanced" group with "CC" and
    without any deaths.
    Or why mostly furies Citws are the fastest.
    Or EE Blue Dragon is a cake instead of usual nightmare with "balanced" groups.
    Nope, I am absolutely correct here. Why? Because the comparison was between parties of -5 juggs and a CCer- versus -6 juggs-. We were at no point in time discussing balanced parties versus full groups of FOTM builds.

    If you already have 5 fury FOTM builds, adding a 6th has far less impact than adding a good CCer. With your statement of only needing 2 of those fury builds to kill those bosses, since the group already has 5, adding a 6th isn't needed, but CC will move you through those trash mobs much faster.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #306
    Community Member anivaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Nope, I am absolutely correct here. Why? Because the comparison was between parties of -5 juggs and a CCer- versus -6 juggs-. We were at no point in time discussing balanced parties versus full groups of FOTM builds.

    If you already have 5 fury FOTM builds, adding a 6th has far less impact than adding a good CCer. With your statement of only needing 2 of those fury builds to kill those bosses, since the group already has 5, adding a 6th isn't needed, but CC will move you through those trash mobs much faster.
    I am overwhelmed by all the love I get when I try to join an EEGH lfm on my wizard and get rejected when they find out I'm a DC caster that is not in Shiradi. You honestly think a DC caster is anywhere near as OPed as a Shiradi in EEGH content (endgame), or a furyshotter/blitzer?
    Cannith - Sorrion - Glassbones - Galodon - Farsnipe
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  7. #307
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anivaj View Post
    I am overwhelmed by all the love I get when I try to join an EEGH lfm on my wizard and get rejected when they find out I'm a DC caster that is not in Shiradi. You honestly think a DC caster is anywhere near as OPed as a Shiradi in EEGH content (endgame), or a furyshotter/blitzer?
    It has nothing to do with being OP. It has to do with understanding that adding a 6th of something you already have 5 of has less impact than adding something completely different, which will have a higher impact on party success, when played equally well.

    Anyone who only accepts the easy buttons into groups is relying on a crutch, plain and simple. If people are getting mad because you built a DC caster and are not playing shiradi, you are grouping with the wrong people.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #308
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Nope, I am absolutely correct here. Why? Because the comparison was between parties of -5 juggs and a CCer- versus -6 juggs-. We were at no point in time discussing balanced parties versus full groups of FOTM builds.

    If you already have 5 fury FOTM builds, adding a 6th has far less impact than adding a good CCer. With your statement of only needing 2 of those fury builds to kill those bosses, since the group already has 5, adding a 6th isn't needed, but CC will move you through those trash mobs much faster.
    Wrong

  9. #309
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    Because I understand math?
    Sorry, don't put yourself on a pedestal without backing it up. Simply "doing" something makes no difference if you can't back something up with facts. DC's are talking about numbers and I can talk to you about numbers. Opinions are just that.
    Wrong.

    My opinions are facts.

  10. #310
    Community Member anivaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    It has nothing to do with being OP. It has to do with understanding that adding a 6th of something you already have 5 of has less impact than adding something completely different, which will have a higher impact on party success, when played equally well.

    Anyone who only accepts the easy buttons into groups is relying on a crutch, plain and simple. If people are getting mad because you built a DC caster and are not playing shiradi, you are grouping with the wrong people.
    So as a DC caster, I just need to look for the perfect party makeup to justify my slot, or just go Shiradi. It's really not that hard to see what I'm saying here. Viable builds to get accepted into EEGH are few and far between, unless I cherry pick my groups. This, plus the lack of engaging endgame, are the reason why people are upset and not logging in anymore.
    Cannith - Sorrion - Glassbones - Galodon - Farsnipe
    Sarlona - Glassbones

  11. #311
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anivaj View Post
    . . .Viable builds to get accepted into EEGH are few and far between . . .
    That's wrong.

    OPTIMAL toons are few and far between, but viable's a pretty wide net. 99% of the EEs are easy enough the viable is enough.

  12. #312
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anivaj View Post
    So as a DC caster, I just need to look for the perfect party makeup to justify my slot, or just go Shiradi. It's really not that hard to see what I'm saying here. Viable builds to get accepted into EEGH are few and far between, unless I cherry pick my groups. This, plus the lack of engaging endgame, are the reason why people are upset and not logging in anymore.
    Any group leader who even remotely understands DDO has stopped waiting for the "perfect party makeup" a LOOOONG time ago (we are talking 2008 here folks). When playing in our guild, I tell people to bring along whatever they want to play. They do, and we win. No cherry picking has ever been needed to play DDO.

    The reason people stopped logging in is because of the ratio between the time it takes to acquire what they want from the current content versus how long it takes to develop new content. The only other option is moar TR grind. Watch when the new expansion comes how quickly people return for a bit, only to acquire what they wanted, then leave again until the next content update is released.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    If you already have 5 fury FOTM builds, adding a 6th has far less impact than adding a good CCer. With your statement of only needing 2 of those fury builds to kill those bosses, since the group already has 5, adding a 6th isn't needed, but CC will move you through those trash mobs much faster.
    The impact might be lesser but in the case of EE GH it's still more significant than what a cc caster would add.

    My server has some of the best casters this game has to offer, yet funnily enough none of them were cc specced last I checked, they're either draconic sorcs, shiradis or moved on to playing mostly melee/ranged chars for now. CC casters are very far from desirable currently.

    Of course they'll work, but plenty of stuff works in this game, even necro casting "works" in EE gianthold but this thread is about how efficiently it works. And the answer is that it works badly.

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