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  1. #1
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    Post i like random affixes on named items

    I think having a random affix so long as they are level appropriate gives gear a much wider prospective user base and thus chance of being useful. I can name literally thousands of pieces of gear that I am unlikely to use because of one affix being "off" which is of course also possible with random affixes on named stuff in this case if I "need" a certain affix and the other static affixes are a good fit then I actually stand a chance of using the item and I might even keep playing a quest in a non farmy way to eventually maybe get that right affix (while also trying to trade for it and keep an eye on the AH's for it) on the other hand the same item with all static affixes means take it or leave it. I have plenty of gear I use with 1 or more useless affixes. I don't agree with the idea that random makes this any more or less of an issue.

    In the case of this shield I have a guards build FvS that plans light and good guards to get amped up by shield of condemnation. That shield is nearly perfect wish it randomly dropped as either a large or a tower (which is another way they could put some freshness and range or diversity into named loot, a greataxe version of eSoS but same stats? Yes please heavy, medium and light versions of named armor? Yes please sir may I 'ave some moar?!. But, back to that shield say for example that random affix could be say: superior radiance lore, or devotion 120, well even something like the affix that gives more Turn undeads (for the ED attack that does light damage but uses turns in my case) Hallowed? Or for that matter sheltering 14 (saving me a blue slot elsewhere). Now if that randomized affix can be an augment (something I'd love to find out from the devs) then there's a small chance of a red augment on the EE that has purple... then I could slot 120 radiance and devotion, while using celestia (which doesn't have a red slot) then wow would I be on the lookout for that shield.

    I think people often lack imagination when it comes to gear, and they want every piece to fit into their own gear setup as a straight best in slot upgrade.

    If you can't stand the idea of an item having a broader potential user base don't farm for them. Get your xp and move on just like you would with 90% of the quests that have highly specific gear that is useless to your build despite not having any randomness.
    *Disclaimer: All statements are generalized without boging down in minutia. Assuming that there are ALWAYS exceptions that test the rule, variations, and un-stated details may be omitted for brevity. These can be assumed to be understood; without bloating my posts with preemptive coverass. [*] Seal[*] Scroll[*] Shard[*] Base Item - eSoS >200 runs

  2. #2
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    So how many people are farming dragontouched anymore? How many people farm the estar challenges? I think your crazy, but you are imo an outlier in the (my guess) 90% of people that hate random gen on named items.

  3. #3
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Actually most people have very little opinion on this. Random effects is something DDO has employed rarely. Dragontouched is one of the few examples, but they perfected dragontouched so the grind was not too bad after they gave people the option of trading runes in. If they up the drop on the items there would be a similar effect. I agree with the OP that many of people that voice their opinions so loudly negatively regarding random loot seem very inflexible. Then again this is an MMO and MMO players are not always known for their flexibility.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    So how many people are farming dragontouched anymore? How many people farm the estar challenges? I think your crazy, but you are imo an outlier in the (my guess) 90% of people that hate random gen on named items.
    DT is obsolete and has no static affixes so is a really bad analogy. Eveningstar loot is mostly uninteresting and also surpassed by other stuff. Neither is a good argument against having some randomized affixes on some loot. As neither of them are obsolete because of randomness but rather because their basic tributes are not worth working to collect.

    Random loot that is powerful even in some cases the best possible loot in the game is the basis for a lot of RPG based games loot mechanics, even named loot, and set items with one or more randomized properties. Especially in rogue-likes, and some MMO's. I don't think its unpopular, the Diablo's have massive randomness and they are pretty clearly more successful games.

    Besides ad populum is a logical fallacy, let's talk about the actual pros and cons of the system instead of pretending this is about how many people have complained about this versus how many have said they're okay with or like it.

    Not to mention if forums complaints were a good reason to change stuff then we would all be merging to the end of every quest, with server crippling mob train in tow, and killing suddenly completely stationary mobs, because DA and mobs jumping/circling/burrowing/moving in any way are just about the two most popular complaints after the ladder bug. Nah, me having less agreements if that appears to be the case without any actual polling doesn't bug me too much
    *Disclaimer: All statements are generalized without boging down in minutia. Assuming that there are ALWAYS exceptions that test the rule, variations, and un-stated details may be omitted for brevity. These can be assumed to be understood; without bloating my posts with preemptive coverass. [*] Seal[*] Scroll[*] Shard[*] Base Item - eSoS >200 runs

  5. #5
    Community Member esheep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    the grind was not too bad after they gave people the option of trading runes in.
    Applying the argument you made here for DT armor will only work if we can trade this junk loot in for moar of the same junk loot... either way I'm as excited about that potential as I am the eStar challenge random loot, and finishing that set of DT I've had partially completed for the last 4 or 5 years...

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Actually most people have very little opinion on this.
    If most don't care about loot, why bother making any named loot? Period... Instead why not use a system similar to DDO's random gen loot that kicks out loot based on level with modifiers that count towards extra effects... ideally you could have relatively regular random loot dropping from raid chests that had like 7 or more effects on it with the right modifiers to chests (ie, loot gems, bard songs, etc).
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    it will go on and on and on to level 999

  6. #6
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    I agree wholeheartedly with the OP.

    As long as the base item and effects is of quality then to me the random effect should be the 'Icing on the Cake' and not the ability that defines the item.
    As long as the random effects are drawn from a small set of relevant and level appropriate abilities then I'm all for a certain level of randomness on named items to allow for more builds/classes to make use of one named item.

    I am not in anyway advocating for randomness on all of our named loot, but I feel if implemented correctly then it can be a positive to many.

    In theory:

    Necklace, Ability + 10, Random effect, Slot.

    -Now if this item was set in stone with the random effect being lets say Wizadry XI (note this may be very similar to one of the new items) then for many non specialised casting classes that really isn't what they are looking for.
    -Now if that was Resistance 9, then it becomes useful for a few more people yet might not be as good for some others.
    -Now if that was Natural armor 9 then its fits a very small niche of classes and would definately be sort after by those that value AC.

    Now if the item has a chance of dropping with any of those variable effects then as an end game item it can fit far more builds than the inflexibility of a set in stone item.
    Wouldn't it be awesome for a very small chance of that item dropping with 2 random effects instead of 1......

    People seem to be complaining about the so called grind to obtain these items and how difficult it will be if they have random effects but aren't they tradeable?
    People seem to be complaining about the so called grind as if its the hardest loot grind DDO has ever seen, but I guess thats what happens in this day and age of 'kitset' epic items.
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  7. #7
    Community Member esheep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    I think people often lack imagination when it comes to gear, and they want every piece to fit into their own gear setup as a straight best in slot upgrade.
    Funny, I think a more appropriate argument would be that folks are getting too hung up imagining what their toons would be like with the best possible items in all slots, instead of saying they are unimaginative. For example that seems to be what you are doing in your OP... imagining how great your toon would be with a specific possible random iteration of a single item. You might see your imagination of what the shield could be as imaginative, but a large number of us just see you as being unfortunately optimistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    If you can't stand the idea of an item having a broader potential user base don't farm for them. Get your xp and move on just like you would with 90% of the quests that have highly specific gear that is useless to your build despite not having any randomness.
    No problem, and good luck getting that random gen shield that your build seems to depend on. (Sure, you don't think your build depends on it, but how you slot items, and what items you use will ultimately depend on what effects that shield has... so good luck.)
    Last edited by esheep; 07-29-2013 at 12:07 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    it will go on and on and on to level 999

  8. #8
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Just to spell it out further assuming a 5% drop rate which seems about right, the results below list the number of random effects and your chance to pull what you want. (Assuming I'm remembering my math right which would be x=drop rate, a=number of effects (x^a)*100 for the percentage chance for the item you want to drop)
    edit
    This part was wrong
    corrected is in this post
    Quote Originally Posted by BruceTheHoon View Post
    Your formula's right, your definitions are wrong. x is not the item's drop rate, but effect's occurrence rate. In example, if it's an elemental damage bonus, its 1 in 4, or 25%.

    If one then takes a conservative occurrence rate of 25% for a particular effect and 5% of item dropping at all, the numbers would be:

    10 effects = 0.05*(0.25^10) = 0.00000477%
    9 effects = 0.05*(0.25^9) = 0.0000191%
    8 effects = 0.05*(0.25^8) = 0.0000763%
    7 effects = 0.05*(0.25^7) = 0.000305%
    6 effects = 0.05*(0.25^6) = 0.00122%
    5 effects = 0.05*(0.25^5) = 0.00488%
    4 effects = 0.05*(0.25^4) = 0.0195%

    As you can see, chances are actually orders of magnitude higher! I mean, 0.0195%! You won't be swimming in these perfect items as you now probably do in ESoS shards (the chances are still ~ten times higher for getting one of those), but still, miles better, isn't it?
    If I'm wrong on the formula I'll edit this.
    Last edited by Charononus; 08-09-2013 at 10:52 AM. Reason: changing post to have better math as stated.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Actually most people have very little opinion on this. Random effects is something DDO has employed rarely. Dragontouched is one of the few examples, but they perfected dragontouched so the grind was not too bad after they gave people the option of trading runes in.
    "[T]hey perfected dragontouched". Dragontouched armor was never perfected. They made the system a bit less of a blind lottery system. It still has a bit of a lottery system to it. And like most systems in the game, it was never upgraded. Anyway, there's never been a time where the armors were anywhere near perfect or flawless.

  10. #10
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    Random effect could be decent if they are stronger than static effect.

    A stat +8 at level 28 (Boots) is useless (even if the boots are quite good in the complex)
    A neck +10 Charisma level 27 Elite when you can find item +11 in the random loot at level 28, doesn't worth the grind.

    Star Day (the little sister of Caelestia) has:

    2(1d10) <--- good base damage better than random loot, if you can't use bastard swords
    Two Random Effect <--- like random loot
    Brilliance <--- static effect, 1 effect more than random loot

    Is so difficult see the difference?

    And how many persons collect Star Day?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Just to spell it out further assuming a 5% drop rate which seems about right, the results below list the number of random effects and your chance to pull what you want. (Assuming I'm remembering my math right which would be x=drop rate, a=number of effects (x^a)*100 for the percentage chance for the item you want to drop)

    10 effects = 0.000000000009766%
    9 effects = 0.00000000019531%
    8 effects = 0.00000000390625%
    7 effects = 0.000000078125%
    6 effects = 0.0000015625%
    5 effects = 0.00003125%
    4 effects = 0.000625%

    If I'm wrong on the formula I'll edit this.
    Ypur numbers look a million miles off.
    Shouldn't it be a straight percentage chance divided by number of combinations?

    Your numbers suggest the items themselves never actually drop.
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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Then again this is an MMO and MMO players are not always known for their flexibility.
    Neither is the current DDO loot dev, unlike his predecessor.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyxxx View Post
    And how many persons collect Star Day?
    A guildie did and got a good combo. He loves it.

    I did and got a bad combo. I hate it. I wont be doing the lottery again. I wont be grinding for random loot.

    I will continue to TR until I get tired of it, then I will probably quit the game, because the direction they are taking end game is just plain wrong.

  14. #14
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    One of the original directions people thought would be taken on Cannith Crafting was to allow you to replace random affixes on an item that was near perfect.

    Pull a +5 holy burst silver kopesh of shattermantle? Simply replace the suffix with geob.

    I think that DT was one of the best armor systems they developed or at least the best direction they've taken towards item crafting once the properties on runes became known.

    You can shape the armor based on your character's needs.

    Content has scaled beyond the DT range from a raw numbers perspective. Additionally, things like the adamantine knuckles appear to try to follow in DT's footsteps, but augments are really in their infancy.

    Taking Diablo as source material for random affixes, be careful, because over there the devs go back and forth between random and named loot being the best. Rare loot much better than unique. Create a new tier of unique with effects that can't drop on rares like absorption. ^^

    Plus pure random will turn this into the equivalence of "opening excel and holding the down arrow key then shouting that you have the most magnificent pants ever." - Yahtzee

    The problem that I think they face now is there is no real direct incentive for rerunning content for long periods of time.

    On the subject of Eveningstar Challenges, if they made a system where you could get a base item with random effects, then trade out tiered effects 1:1, I think that system would see new popularity. I.E. be a lvl 24 version of DT available on weapons and armor.

  15. #15

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    DT Armor is basically obsolete BECAUSE of the randomness of it. it is still the best armor int he game from 16-20 with the "Right" combinations. most of my TR's still use it and could stand an upgrade or more sets of alt TR lives... But I skip it because of the random nature...

    DT is far from "Perfected"

    Randomness is a cop out for devs to try to expand the loot tables without doing any extra work. Make an item more appealing to more people! yeah, thats it!.

    It just makes it less appealing to the folks that were in mind when the item was originally designed.
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    Community Member Dreppo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    DT Armor is basically obsolete BECAUSE of the randomness of it. it is still the best armor int he game from 16-20 with the "Right" combinations. most of my TR's still use it and could stand an upgrade or more sets of alt TR lives... But I skip it because of the random nature...
    I disagree. What makes DT armor obsolete is not randomness. The randomness just makes it tedious to obtain the best combinations, but you can still get the best combinations with enough grind. What makes DT armor obsolete is that even the best possible combinations are still outclassed by new armors. On my rogue, I had previously crafted what I thought was the best possible combination DT armor. But now I have the Parasitic Breastplate (with +10 reflex) and the Black Dragon armor, and there is literally no DT armor that I would take over those. I suppose there could be some DT armors that have niche uses for some builds, but overall the power level of DT armor has simply been surpassed by newer armor.

    Another benefit DT armor used to claim is a +2 AC advantage over typical lootgen armor -- light DT armor had +2 to its MDB, while medium and heavy DT armor had +2 to its armor bonus. That actually made DT plate a serious consideration for my fighter tank back when every point of AC mattered. But with the sweeping changes to the combat system a while back (U14?), a +2 difference to AC is now irrelevant. So one of the previous advantages of DT armor got nerfed.

  17. #17
    Community Member esheep's Avatar
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    While we are on DT... sure would be nice if it got updated... would make the pack more worth purchasing for those who don't have it, and make those who do happier.

    Redo like 90% of the runes, give it a blue and a colorless slot... would probably be worth wearing then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    it will go on and on and on to level 999

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by esheep View Post
    While we are on DT... sure would be nice if it got updated... would make the pack more worth purchasing for those who don't have it, and make those who do happier.

    Redo like 90% of the runes, give it a blue and a colorless slot... would probably be worth wearing then.
    Agreed. If the Devs would actually update the runes as the new armor enhancements and PPR has been added to the game, the armor might enjoy a bit of a boost. I also agree that a Blue slot seems like a given for the armor.

  19. #19
    Community Member LightBear's Avatar
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    It would be great to see the dragon touched runes fit into colorless slots.

    It would be great if the dragon touched armor had an upgraded Damage Reduction so when comparing it to a similar armor of that level the dragon touched would be better.

    It would be great if there was a level 26 version of this armor with room for six affixes, two of each type.
    Prices for the armor would probably double of what you have right now and require a level 16 to be turned in.

    It would be great if the dragon touched runes would fit in armor other then dragon touched armor, probably at some extended price.

    It would be great if we could forge dragon touched runes into new ones, creating more powerful effects.

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  20. #20
    Community Member Dhalgren's Avatar
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    I don't so much mind a random side effect on named loot, but as far as I'm concerned, named loot should be Named Loot--it should be what it is.

    We have random lootgen for the rest. And from what I'm seeing, the random lootgen is beating the so-called "named" loot anyway. That, as they say, just ain't right.
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