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  1. #1
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Default CitW - alternate story line I would love to see

    Instead of trying to save Ana and then having Ana saving the day, I would love to see the following alternate story line. After all, we are the heroes, are we not?

    It would start with Elminster telling us he wants to go with us because Ana is much to important to lose and he himself must come to her rescue. We would meet him at the CitW entrance (after entering) and we should help him battling demons until he can rescue Ana.

    Then we would do battle (with Elminster casting something useful from time to time) until we can free Ana from whatever prison. Of course this would alert Lolth immediately who would give her long and nerfing sermon now and tells us that this is most convenient, her worst enemy, the rests of Mystra and some lesser heroes that would make good casting components for her rituals to become godess of magic. She even taunts us deeper into her web.

    We try to protect Elminster and Ana to retain our freedom of Action - we do not want to get overwhelmed by Lolths minions, legs, whatever. After some time this annoys Lolth and she herself steps in to stop this bickering. This is used, with the help of Ana, to spring one of Elminster´s magic traps. He temporarly forces Lolth to manifest and to be vulnerable for attacks. Now a really epic battle evolves. Lolth summons in whatever minions are nearby and the party has all hands full to do to clear the back of Elminster and Ana from thrash while they battle Lolth themselfs.

    Of course, Lolth wins the upper Hand and bannishes Elminster back to the FR. With his last gesture, he takes Ana with him and the party is left with a very angry Lolth, that still is vulnerable and has used up much of her power, and whatever thrash still is alive. Now the party has to force lolth to either open a Portal back (by nearly killing her or whatever) or to flee from the web, with a very angry Lolth harrasing them all the way out. Then there is the final battle with the angry but vulnerable godess.

    In the end, the party should be able to fight a major victory over Lolth, with forcing her to retreat, a feat that even Elminster could not do. The party returns to Eveningstar, only to be praised by Elminster and Ana for "you did what I could not" and claim the prize.

  2. #2
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    I kept reading and looking for the part where Elminster dies horribly. Color me disappointed.

  3. #3
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    I want a version where I bow to Lolth and cut out anna's heart as a sacrifice to Lolth. I really hate Anna if you can't tell.

  4. #4
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghoulstorm View Post
    I kept reading and looking for the part where Elminster dies horribly. Color me disappointed.
    I left that out for the FR fanboys that would whine all over the forum then. But you are perfectly right, this would have added the "missing something"! Edit: For your amusement, think of Lolth instead of banisihing Elmi she kills him instead and with his dying words he saves Ana. The end reward would be Elminsters Hat, from Anas hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I want a version where I bow to Lolth and cut out anna's heart as a sacrifice to Lolth. I really hate Anna if you can't tell.
    Personally I do not have anything against Ana, she might even be the incarnation of one of my favorite PnP godesses (the other being Shar!). May she live. But give me the head of Elminster .

    Edit post: I would settle for the Hat of Elminster. Especially as an end reward for my Archmage.
    Last edited by Nestroy; 07-28-2013 at 05:53 AM.

  5. #5
    Community Member Veriden's Avatar
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    Frankly, if I had it my way. My character Veriden would have tripped and killed Anna in the portal opens when she followed (with out Eliminster) into the ritual room. This part of the story makes no sense. Why did he bring her that far into the underdark, why didn't he come in to counter the spell placed on Anna?

    "Oh, they're charmed? Kill the hostage, take her out of the equation....take the resurrection fee out of my pay."

    Evil never plans for the heroes to stoop lower than 'honorable' Thus my love for my pnp neutral ninja who happens to be the original version of who I play on ddo. Many of ddo's stories would have been thrown for a loop if this were table top with competent rp'ers. What is this? You want me to collect pieces of a scroll that the bad guys are looking for? Ok, but only if I put the pieces where -I- want to...and not some lock box in the basement of a public place.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veriden View Post
    Frankly, if I had it my way. My character Veriden would have tripped and killed Anna in the portal opens when she followed (with out Eliminster) into the ritual room. This part of the story makes no sense. Why did he bring her that far into the underdark, why didn't he come in to counter the spell placed on Anna?

    "Oh, they're charmed? Kill the hostage, take her out of the equation....take the resurrection fee out of my pay."

    Evil never plans for the heroes to stoop lower than 'honorable'
    Indeed. My characters resent being forced to act Lawful Stupid.
    <seemingly offensive Army of Darkness quote>

  7. #7
    Community Member DynaTheCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    Instead of trying to save Ana and then having Ana saving the day, I would love to see the following alternate story line. After all, we are the heroes, are we not?

    It would start with Elminster telling us he wants to go with us because Ana is much to important to lose and he himself must come to her rescue. We would meet him at the CitW entrance (after entering) and we should help him battling demons until he can rescue Ana.

    Then we would do battle (with Elminster casting something useful from time to time) until we can free Ana from whatever prison. Of course this would alert Lolth immediately who would give her long and nerfing sermon now and tells us that this is most convenient, her worst enemy, the rests of Mystra and some lesser heroes that would make good casting components for her rituals to become godess of magic. She even taunts us deeper into her web.

    We try to protect Elminster and Ana to retain our freedom of Action - we do not want to get overwhelmed by Lolths minions, legs, whatever. After some time this annoys Lolth and she herself steps in to stop this bickering. This is used, with the help of Ana, to spring one of Elminster´s magic traps. He temporarly forces Lolth to manifest and to be vulnerable for attacks. Now a really epic battle evolves. Lolth summons in whatever minions are nearby and the party has all hands full to do to clear the back of Elminster and Ana from thrash while they battle Lolth themselfs.

    Of course, Lolth wins the upper Hand and bannishes Elminster back to the FR. With his last gesture, he takes Ana with him and the party is left with a very angry Lolth, that still is vulnerable and has used up much of her power, and whatever thrash still is alive. Now the party has to force lolth to either open a Portal back (by nearly killing her or whatever) or to flee from the web, with a very angry Lolth harrasing them all the way out. Then there is the final battle with the angry but vulnerable godess.

    In the end, the party should be able to fight a major victory over Lolth, with forcing her to retreat, a feat that even Elminster could not do. The party returns to Eveningstar, only to be praised by Elminster and Ana for "you did what I could not" and claim the prize.
    Pretty nice idea. In CITW, it would make more sense if lolth disappears from fighting the party because she's concerned with elminster elsewhere, instead of being amused that we're running around her web making a mess of her realm.....

    I mean, if I was an evil god. I'd immediately go all out against insolent "heroes" daring to step foot in my domain. I mean having mortals run-a-muck in your home plane just makes you look bad.... Albeit, having Lolth immediately blast everyone to death would make for a pretty short quest.

    Hence, why I like the Elminster distraction idea. She's more afraid of what and where the bee is.... instead of some annoying ants.

    Elminster's pretty OP to be with the party tho. He's the strongest wizard literally.

    I.E. in LOTR, Gandalf is deemed the strongest wizard because of his actions not his magical powers.

    Elminster is pretty much power. :/

    Yeah, make Elminster blow up whole armies of Lolth demons. Makes sense. It's why we're met with just a few straggler parties on the way to the escape portal. Everyone's fighting Elminster.

  8. #8
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DynaTheCat View Post
    Pretty nice idea. In CITW, it would make more sense if lolth disappears from fighting the party because she's concerned with elminster elsewhere, instead of being amused that we're running around her web making a mess of her realm.....

    I mean, if I was an evil god. I'd immediately go all out against insolent "heroes" daring to step foot in my domain. I mean having mortals run-a-muck in your home plane just makes you look bad.... Albeit, having Lolth immediately blast everyone to death would make for a pretty short quest.

    Hence, why I like the Elminster distraction idea. She's more afraid of what and where the bee is.... instead of some annoying ants.

    Elminster's pretty OP to be with the party tho. He's the strongest wizard literally.

    I.E. in LOTR, Gandalf is deemed the strongest wizard because of his actions not his magical powers.

    Elminster is pretty much power. :/

    Yeah, make Elminster blow up whole armies of Lolth demons. Makes sense. It's why we're met with just a few straggler parties on the way to the escape portal. Everyone's fighting Elminster.
    As a goddess couldn't Lolth honestly just grant herself some sort of wish or perfect wish spell and eradicate Elminster from existance? Shouldn't she be doing the same to us?

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    Hate to tell you but we could be lvl 38 and still be significantly below the PnP CR rating for Elminster. We are not on his level no matter how epic you want to think your character is. Elminster is a chosen of a god, not just a god but his prime material realms god of magic. He is so far beyond anything we can become currently in DDO its silly to try and compare yourself to him or think there is anything you can do he cant. He chooses when and how to act himself largely because of his near diety status his intervention can make those he aids vulnerable to other Powers in the verse.

    I personally dont much care for Elminster or the Realms but within the lore of the setting nothing we can bring to the table is enough, we are his summoned minions and just as we see them as largely useless chaotic meat shields, so to are we to real Powers.

    And in no way can an MMO really take our characters to that level and make sense of an army of god like beings wandering the worlds. As powerful as our toons can be they are still not even immortals let alone Powers in the making.

  10. #10
    Community Member DynaTheCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    As a goddess couldn't Lolth honestly just grant herself some sort of wish or perfect wish spell and eradicate Elminster from existance? Shouldn't she be doing the same to us?
    Maaaaayybe

    I'm pretty sure Elminster is one of the only people to still have access to 10+ lvl spells or something.

    He is mystra's favored after all....

    He can probably seal Lolth for all eternity in a slow time plane in the pocket of some nether-dimension under the soiled mattress of reality or something. You know, the mattress behind the dumpster at your local Seven Eleven that someone threw out illegally, but no one bothered to clean up?

    Probably doesn't do it cuz it'll upset the balance of life or something.

    Pretty much dead if your're imprisoned forever. Meh.
    Last edited by DynaTheCat; 07-28-2013 at 05:45 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    As a goddess couldn't Lolth honestly just grant herself some sort of wish or perfect wish spell and eradicate Elminster from existance? Shouldn't she be doing the same to us?
    Actually no. Beings that can grant wishes may never use them for their own ends. Nor does a being of chaos like lolth possess the ability to actually focus on anything resembling a tacticaly plan as those imply orderly thought. Hence one of the biggest points of contention to drow fans in the shift between 2nd and 3rd eds and drow racial alignment going from CE to NE.

    What lolth honestly would do is laugh, as she lives on I believe it was the 466th layered of the abyss, that is her plane she holds dominion over in the grand scheme of the planescapes setting and is actually classified as a lesser power of the abyss as she only has a single race ( drow actively pray to her and thus feed her power via faith) This is actually the case for most gods of demi humans, with the major exceptions springing to mind being Correllion Larathion of the elven pantheon( a greater power on the planes of nature, his consort who is directly tied to the moon and thus gains power from all who worship the moons of any world. And the dragon gawds Tiamat and Bahamut who both rank among all powers as the mightiest and even give Thor( one of the most universally and frequently published gods for all editions, who is stated in planescapes to be among the mightiest of dieties wandering the upper planes.

    So frankly its laughable to even try fighting any Power when we are not even in that league ourselves. On their home plane they have absolute dominance and traditionally from 1st ed where deemed untouchable on that plane. Hence why Raistilin of the Dragonlance novels and setting is considered among the most cunning and bold to find a means to release a greater power in full form and not just via an avatar onto his world, so that she could actually be fought and defeated. Though most sane men would never risk such a battle for the cost if one loses would be bringing into the prime material a being so far beyond the ken of imagination as to make even Elminster west himself in fear and run to mystra to suckle on her teet.

  12. #12
    Community Member DynaTheCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Actually no. Beings that can grant wishes may never use them for their own ends.
    Today I learned.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DynaTheCat View Post
    Today I learned.
    Its even more interesting then that, see the above you quoted has been a rule of thumb in D&D as far back as I can remember to 1st ed.

    However most interesting was after 3E and the sorcerer and wizard being defined so specifically and differently a question was sent in to the ask a DM section in an issue of Dragon magezine.

    Apparently Wish is one of the great reasons to choose to be a wizard over a sorc in PnP, as a Wizard alone can learn and cast wish with no risk of a DM fudging it, as it will respond to exactly whatever the wizard is actually picturing and wanting in his mind when he casts it.

    Clerics and the like cant do as such with miracle as it is actuallya direct request to thier diety for divine aid in a big way, and subject to the gods judgement of if it is appropriate( IE totaly DM choice on how it is used)

    And worse for sorcerers who if they choose as one of their slots Wish, become bound by the same rules as those who can cast wish through natural magical ability rather then pure training( the dif betweena wiz and sorc) In other words a sorc who knows wish will never be able to cast wish for his own desire but only as a reward to others for aid. And yes if someone does for example save or capture a sorcerer who knows wish, that sorc is bound by an unbreakable magical comulsion to tell and grant the savior/captor 3 wishes and will have to pay the xp costs for the wishes being cast.

    So now you know if your running at a table top with people in the know never be a sorc who knows wish or risk ending up like a genie in a bottle being passed around the party.

  14. #14
    Community Member DynaTheCat's Avatar
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    Mmmmm coooll :O

    Thx for sharing.

    I've never played PnP but I've read up on D&D lore and such.... I just find the systems, lore, and such really interesting and fun.

    There are no spells above lvl 9 because mystra limited spell levels because someone used a level 13 spell to blow up a continent or something and caused the spell plague.

    Mmmmm... so I just thought maybe Elminster being Mystra's favored just simply has access to those kinds of spells. Like a secret between friends. LOL

    I know Mystra keeps dying. Midnight died to Cyran and such and now Anna is the new Mystra vessel.

    It seems like Mystra's avatars just keep dying.... Like a trend.

    Almost like a conspiracy to keep Mystra down. Understood that Mystra is probably the most powerful god next to Ao...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DynaTheCat View Post
    Mmmmm coooll :O

    Thx for sharing.

    I've never played PnP but I've read up on D&D lore and such.... I just find the systems, lore, and such really interesting and fun.

    There are no spells above lvl 9 because mystra limited spell levels because someone used a level 13 spell to blow up a continent or something and caused the spell plague.

    Mmmmm... so I just thought maybe Elminster being Mystra's favored just simply has access to those kinds of spells. Like a secret between friends. LOL

    I know Mystra keeps dying. Midnight died to Cyran and such and now Anna is the new Mystra vessel.

    It seems like Mystra's avatars just keep dying.... Like a trend.

    Almost like a conspiracy to keep Mystra down. Understood that Mystra is probably the most powerful god next to Ao...
    Actually a common misconception. Mystra in the greater scheme of the planescapes is clearly labeled a lesser power native to the plane of ysgard. She is actually only a goddess of the Weave, a unique magic of the FR setting and one reason that much like wizards of dragonlance, wizards of the realms suffer greatly when taken to a place that does not use weave magic. Not unlike clerics in general tht worship world specific dieties.

    Planar wizards learn to draw on the magic of the multi verse and often have access to spells and skills prime material wizards have no idea even exist. As for high lvls spells, the rules vary but I tend to lean most heavily to the 2nd ed rules surrounding what are called psionic spells , 10 lvl or greater spells only the dragon kings of Athas could cast, and the reason that no gods dared to go anywhere near athas out of fear. FOr each dragon king was the equiv ofa 20/20 wizard psion who had then used a special psionic magial ritual to transcend their mortal forms.

    Other 3E+ variations include the way arcana evolved dealt with magic and meta magics, replacing meta magic feats with templates that you gained access to through a variety of feats and classes. In this system all spells are listed with a lesser and greater aspect that can be achieved by using a higher lvl slot, and the magister class there gains higher then 9 th lvl slots to fuel them in the 20-25 lvl range. That system throws out the OP lameness of 3E official rules for epic which create such extremes in power that anyone using them would rightfully be made into an NPC on the moment of aquisition.

    Perhaps the most interesting variation of the Wheel of Time D20 rule book and how they adapted the classic D&D slot system to their idea of weaving the elements into magical effects. In this system every spell has a wide range of effects determined by the initial spell slot lvl used . An easy example is thier weave arms of air, the classic use of air to move or strike objects. It can be used iwth anything from as little as a 0th lvl spell slot to create a very minor effect, to a lvl 12 slot capable of knocking down castle walls. Channelers only gain up to 9th lvl slots like normal wizards, but have the ability to over channel using the concentration skill to push beyond the limits but at the risk of temporarily or even permamently burning out the ability to cast magic.

  16. #16
    Community Member DynaTheCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Actually a common misconception. Mystra in the greater scheme of the planescapes is clearly labeled a lesser power native to the plane of ysgard. She is actually only a goddess of the Weave, a unique magic of the FR setting and one reason that much like wizards of dragonlance, wizards of the realms suffer greatly when taken to a place that does not use weave magic. Not unlike clerics in general tht worship world specific dieties.

    Planar wizards learn to draw on the magic of the multi verse and often have access to spells and skills prime material wizards have no idea even exist. As for high lvls spells, the rules vary but I tend to lean most heavily to the 2nd ed rules surrounding what are called psionic spells , 10 lvl or greater spells only the dragon kings of Athas could cast, and the reason that no gods dared to go anywhere near athas out of fear. FOr each dragon king was the equiv ofa 20/20 wizard psion who had then used a special psionic magial ritual to transcend their mortal forms.

    Other 3E+ variations include the way arcana evolved dealt with magic and meta magics, replacing meta magic feats with templates that you gained access to through a variety of feats and classes. In this system all spells are listed with a lesser and greater aspect that can be achieved by using a higher lvl slot, and the magister class there gains higher then 9 th lvl slots to fuel them in the 20-25 lvl range. That system throws out the OP lameness of 3E official rules for epic which create such extremes in power that anyone using them would rightfully be made into an NPC on the moment of aquisition.

    Perhaps the most interesting variation of the Wheel of Time D20 rule book and how they adapted the classic D&D slot system to their idea of weaving the elements into magical effects. In this system every spell has a wide range of effects determined by the initial spell slot lvl used . An easy example is thier weave arms of air, the classic use of air to move or strike objects. It can be used iwth anything from as little as a 0th lvl spell slot to create a very minor effect, to a lvl 12 slot capable of knocking down castle walls. Channelers only gain up to 9th lvl slots like normal wizards, but have the ability to over channel using the concentration skill to push beyond the limits but at the risk of temporarily or even permamently burning out the ability to cast magic.
    O.o;;

    So.... spells affect material / things in a certain way and the magnitude of the effects on the object correlate with higher spell slots.

    Wooo... :O mmmm.....

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