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  1. #1
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    Default The (De)Evolution of Quests

    In the last few updates we have noticed an unfortunate turn for the worse in the content in this game.

    First off, let me say that I am in general pretty forgiving of some of the issues recently in DDO. I dont generally find the various bugs and balance decisions to be game breaking for me and for the most part I do not find that many of the recent issues or design decisions would ever cause me to stop playing.

    That said, there is a very real problem that has started occurring with DDO. For the most part, ever since the launch of the Forgotten Realms, turbine has done a complete 180 on their quest designs. Turbine has stopped producing environments with things occurring in them for us, and started producing plays in which we are puppets.

    It used to be that quests were frameworks whereupon OUR stories were told, objectives were given to us and a miniature world was created for us, and we were set loose upon those worlds to do as we willed in the pursuit of our objectives. If we wanted to stealth, we stealthed, we stealthed. If we wanted to massacre, we massacred. There were secret passage ways, alternate routes, hidden bosses, kobolds you could bribe to steal your foes armor, and so much more!

    Now however, quests have changed into stores that we are merely bitparts in. Recent quests have us enter and follow a linear hallway of events as a story unfolds around us the same way every single time. There are no longer various paths to completion, no longer cool little secrets, or tricks, or obstacles with different ways around them. Instead we are on rollercoasters of story where we have no decisions to make, we only need to do as we are told and watch.

    Now do not get me wrong, a good in game story can be fun and interesting... once or twice. The problem is DDO is a game based on allowing players to consume content multiple times with alts, TRing, the vast complexity of character design choices giving unlimited different potential characters to play. That means that you need to be expecting players to want to run your quests more than once - and frankly completely story driven quests just do not offer that.

    I am currently at level 17 of my 18th life, and I have to say, every single life I avoid quests released post update 14 as much as possible every single life. They are just far less enjoyable after having run them once or twice than the older style of quests.

    I wish that turbine will reconsider their direction for how they design their quests and start moving back to the old epic environments of occurrences rather than the new interactive movies we are getting now.
    Vlyxnol / Ragedx / Marphist - Completionist of Legit
    "As a tank I feel that plate armor is necessary for my survivability but I also feel that other players need to see my belly button."

  2. #2
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    I dont totally agree at 100% whit what you are saying (just some different point of view / way of seeing things I guess) But I need to say...

    Quote Originally Posted by ZzpxpzZ View Post
    There are no longer various paths to completion, no longer cool little secrets, or tricks, or obstacles with different ways around them. [...] we only need to do as we are told and watch.
    I 2000% agree whit that. I loved how complexe and elaborated the quests were in DDO. The most recent update (MotU and few quest available of Shadowfell) just dont feel... fun to play? I mean, they look like they were made on the go; linear, no secret, trick, nor different approach (cant sneak around most of the time... a barrier block the way until all mobs are killd = its pretty much a "Room A; kill all mob, move to room B, kill all mob, lever, go back to Room A to get into Room C and.... Mobs! again") Those make the game feel more like a "Hack and slash" than DDO. I dont even run the new quests anymore.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZzpxpzZ View Post
    That said, there is a very real problem that has started occurring with DDO. For the most part, ever since the launch of the Forgotten Realms, turbine has done a complete 180 on their quest designs. Turbine has stopped producing environments with things occurring in them for us, and started producing plays in which we are puppets.
    While I can not really agree with what you said before this, I have to agree whole heartedly with the core of your message here. When I play Gwylan's Stand, I feel like I am playing D&D. Playing quests released over the last year, it feels like playing 'Generic Fantasy MMO'. Which is not to say that they are bad quests, or poorly designed. Just that it does not feel like they belong in DDO. Using the Dungeons and Dragons name sets a certain type of expectation for many people, and I really feel like things are fighting against that license, rather than building on it.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZzpxpzZ View Post
    There were secret passage ways, alternate routes, hidden bosses, kobolds you could bribe to steal your foes armor, and so much more!
    There are a lot of these in the new quests too, what are you talking about.

    Now however, quests have changed into stores that we are merely bitparts in. Recent quests have us enter and follow a linear hallway of events as a story unfolds around us the same way every single time. There are no longer various paths to completion, no longer cool little secrets, or tricks, or obstacles with different ways around them. Instead we are on rollercoasters of story where we have no decisions to make, we only need to do as we are told and watch.


    Dude, just look at this. That's really not linear at all. No more or less than most other DDO quests

    I wish that turbine will reconsider their direction for how they design their quests and start moving back to the old epic environments of occurrences rather than the new interactive movies we are getting now.
    I'm really not seeing what your problem with the new quests are. Everything you say is absent in them, isn't; no more so than older quests.

    And don't you dare compare them to something like Chains of Flame because that's the single most non-linear quest in the game.
    Last edited by Qezuzu; 07-27-2013 at 11:35 PM.

  5. #5
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    I don't agree that the quests itself are too linear. They feel like that specially after you run it a lot of times and know it inside out and just run the best path to the end. Rusted Blades and Rest Stop are no different from Waterworks or Gwylan on this regard.

    Sure, we had a lot of linear quests in the last two packs (High Road and Druid's Deep. U17 is rerelease and U18 is free). But we had a lot of linear quests in the past classic packs too (Cabal, Ghost, RwtD, Prey, EtK...).

    Myself, I think we have a worst problem that all Forgotten Realms arcs are just bad. All of them ends up with a bitter winning, a complete failure, or some NPC showing up to get the credit for your victory. The only exception to this rule thus far is the first MotU chain (Battle for Eveningstar).
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

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    Notice however that these mentioned quests here are the ones everyone runs - that shows that those things appeal - but they are becoming the exception rather than the norm.

    It used to be common for there to be multiple paths and options to the end, now most quests are move down a path, kill pack of enemies, move further down the path, rinse and repeat.
    Vlyxnol / Ragedx / Marphist - Completionist of Legit
    "As a tank I feel that plate armor is necessary for my survivability but I also feel that other players need to see my belly button."

  7. #7
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caissede12 View Post
    a barrier block the way until all mobs are killd = its pretty much a "Room A; kill all mob, move to room B, kill all mob, lever, go back to Room A to get into Room C and.... Mobs! again") Those make the game feel more like a "Hack and slash" than DDO. I dont even run the new quests anymore.
    It's the video game mentality as opposed to a rpg. I've always thought they should move away from video game based mechanics like the door that won't open until all the mobs are killed. It makes no sense and is lazy. If you are capable of sneaking past the mobs, you should be able to give it a shot... at least some of the time. If you can charm them, you should be able to go through the door, at least some of the time. If you don't want players running through the dungeon skipping everything, there are ways to limit that that are creative and interesting.

    The other blatant one is "red names are immune to everything except dps". If they're immune to charm and sleep, there should be a reason for it... an inherent ability or an item that they are using. Assassinate should work, it should just be hard to get close enough to them while sneaking to pull it off. If a red name is worried about an assassination, he would surround himself with guardian creatures that see invis, traps, or just make it a bit of an obstacle course of several things. And while I can see it being a rare thing, a charm or fascinate should occasionally be useful on a red name. This would also create a more balanced possibility of play for those who aren't simply chasing "moar dps!".

    But yes, I agree with most of the new quests they are just kinda flat. Visually they're nice, but it's just run from one room to the next and kill everything.

    But that's where we're headed. More clickies that last 6 seconds, fewer puzzles, (and I don't just mean tile puzzles, but things you have to think about) and lots more hacking. Keep the players busy with trivial little junk and keeping up with the power creep, and maybe they won't notice the lack of immersion.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZzpxpzZ View Post
    It used to be common for there to be multiple paths and options to the end, now most quests are move down a path, kill pack of enemies, move further down the path, rinse and repeat.
    Those quests with "multiple paths" are the exception, and there are some like it in the new quests.

    Nearly every single quest boils down to "kill mobs and advance through the dungeon," old and new.

  9. #9
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    I have to agree with the recent direction in quest design. There are a few notable quests, but I find that more often than not, I'm being led through a very linear dungeon with very clear and immersion destroying "stops" put in to slow me down. Force barriers that require me to kill all mobs are just getting very, very old now. A well designed quest doesn't need to force me in a direction or force me to kill X mobs or force me to do anything really. A well designed quest can do all these things and the beauty of it all is that I'll never know that I'm being led because of good quest design.

    Turbine seems to be stuck in a two step quest design process. Either A: kill all mobs, move on, kill all mobs, move on. Or B: guard X (person, item, etc.) move on. This is an extremely narrow view to have heading into quest design. People complain about too many hack and slash quests but at the same time people complain about protect/escort quests but there are hundreds or other unexplored design spaces, yet we keep getting the same old things due to a lack of imagination.

    Examples of some of the quests I feel are very poorly designed.

    Mired in Kobolds - the one thing that saves this quest is a somewhat interesting end fight. The path to the fight is horribly linear and boring after only a few runs. Even the xp is horrible. A free to play quest should not have an automatic xp penalty bestowed on it simply because it's free to play. XP of a quest should be based on the quest itself and never have anything to do with whether you have to pay for a pack to play it or not.

    Escape Plan/Disciples of Shar - both contain artificial barriers slowing down progress and forcing combat. The third in the series at least breaks from that pattern and allows some flexibility.

    Detour/Lost in the Swamp - again, the artificial stopping points. Forcing us to stop and kill before moving on. Is stealth not a legitimate option anymore? I do enjoy Rest Stop. That one does have some variety to it.

    The entire Druid adventure pack falls into the same trap. Thorn and Paw feels slightly less linear and forced than the others so there is at least that one.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 07-28-2013 at 12:41 AM.
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  10. #10
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    I think one of my biggest complaints about the new quest styles are they render good groups down to just being slightly more DPS.

    Its very uncommon now that you have simultaneous quest objectives etc, you cant split up, coordinate things, you just run together and kill stuffs.
    Vlyxnol / Ragedx / Marphist - Completionist of Legit
    "As a tank I feel that plate armor is necessary for my survivability but I also feel that other players need to see my belly button."

  11. #11
    Uber Completionist luvirini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Turbine seems to be stuck in a two step quest design process. Either A: kill all mobs, move on, kill all mobs, move on. Or B: guard X (person, item, etc.) move on. This is an extremely narrow view to have heading into quest design. People complain about too many hack and slash quests but at the same time people complain about protect/escort quests but there are hundreds or other unexplored design spaces, yet we keep getting the same old things due to a lack of imagination.
    Very much this

    Quote Originally Posted by ZzpxpzZ View Post
    I think one of my biggest complaints about the new quest styles are they render good groups down to just being slightly more DPS.

    Its very uncommon now that you have simultaneous quest objectives etc, you cant split up, coordinate things, you just run together and kill stuffs.
    and this are the biggest problems with most newer quests.

    "kill all enemies to advance as single party" is just boring all the time.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZzpxpzZ View Post
    That said, there is a very real problem that has started occurring with DDO. For the most part, ever since the launch of the Forgotten Realms, turbine has done a complete 180 on their quest designs. Turbine has stopped producing environments with things occurring in them for us, and started producing plays in which we are puppets.
    Yes. I like to call it the LOTROfication of DDO. I blame Ganda... Elminster. (It really does feel as if a significant amount of the design and writing team has been shifted to DDO. And Lotro's team got replaced by interns.)

    Good news! It's still way (waywaywayway) less linear than Neverwinter.

  13. #13
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    OK - So I'm not on Lamannia and can't speak about the quests on that server!

    So I've not bothered even stepping into the latest pack on Live yet!

    BUT:

    From what I've seen of Forgotten Realms Content these are my thoughts:

    1. Druid's Deep

    - Outbreak - What would the expected Level of this quest be in PnP?
    8? 9?
    Certainly NOT 16!

    - Overgrowth and Thorn & Paw - See above!

    - The Druid's Curse - Should have been a Raid!
    Also...This would fit more naturally at Lvl 10 than 16!

    2. Eveningstar

    - Murder By Night - Different Mobs but incredibly similar to Outbreak {also...Why on Toril are we asking the NPCs if it's Lycanthropy in Outbreak when this Quest is 3 {THREE} Lvls Higher than that one?

    Change Lvl of quest to 7/8 and it fits in much more naturally!

    - The Riddle - Yet another quest that's been placed at way too high a level to be realistic {even in the confines of DDO!}
    HOWEVER:
    This quest does feature Night Hags!

    So Change Lvl of quest to 12/13!

    3. King's Forest

    - Impossible Demands - This is NOT an EPIC Quest!
    Move to Lvl 17 on Normal {Keep Epic Option if you like - Will talk more about That later}

    - Unquiet Graves - Would fit more naturally at Lvl 17 too

    - The Lost Thread - Again - Lvl 17 seems a more natural fit

    The Explorer Zone would also HAVE to be reduced in Lvl to 17 of course BUT that would please a LOT of players anyway!

    4. Schindylrynn

    Drop Level of all quests to 21

    5. Don't Drink the Water - Finally an Epic Quest!
    No issues here!


    In fact - Apart from the above Dragon in the Well and Battle for Eveningstar!
    Not a Single quest POST Beyond the Rift really deserves it's placement at such a high level!

    I'm not even going to mention the fact that The High Road feels like a Lvl 4-5 Pack! {Oh sorry I just mentioned it didn't I - Couldn't help myself!}.



    The issue is that at Lvl 16+ we've got used to the likes of Gianthold, Vale, IQ, Reaver's Refuge, Amrath and even House C Manufactory
    All of which are much much better suited to those levels!

    You've been inundated with forum threads in the past complaining about Epic Rats, Spiders, Dogs etc. etc. in the Likes of Carnival!

    We don't want to be fighting Lvl 1 Mobs at Lvl 20!
    And NO - Giving them a Shed Ton of HP and ridonkulously high ACs/Saves does NOT make them EPIC!


    Then we get short and sweet Harbour/Marketplace/House style quests in all the new packs that would be much better suited to low-mid levels than where they've been put into the game!


    And finally - Back to the latest pack - The one I could play on Live but haven't as yet!
    To GET to Eveningstar I have to have completed 4 Lvl 16 Quests {Thanks to BB and the Requirement for Silver Flame Favour / Pots MOST LIKELY ON ELITE!}

    I have characters flagged for Eveningstar {some of which I've since TRd} BUT I'm currently concentrating on others!
    And even with those characters - There's TOO much else to do at that Lvl Range - Vale, IQ, Amrath etc. etc.!

    I simply have NO reason to bother with quests that I'm going to be OVER-Lvl for BEFORE I even get to them!


    Hey...Lords of Dust, Servants, Spinner and Beyond the Rift are SUPERB!
    Yes LoD is very easy for a Lvl 16 Quest
    And Servants/Spinner are on the hard side - A big change for Newbies trying to get to Eveningstar and finding LoD easy when they step into Servants and Wipe in the Second room!

    BUT - These quests were on the whole - Well made content!

    WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THOUGH?

  14. #14
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Hey...Lords of Dust, Servants, Spinner and Beyond the Rift are SUPERB!
    Yes LoD is very easy for a Lvl 16 Quest
    And Servants/Spinner are on the hard side - A big change for Newbies trying to get to Eveningstar and finding LoD easy when they step into Servants and Wipe in the Second room!

    BUT - These quests were on the whole - Well made content!

    WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THOUGH?
    I agree! Except that Spinners is really not that great a quest, imo. First, you start off being magically held with no save so you can listen to the bad gal monologue. Lazy quest design, but ok, we have to get the back story. Then we battle bad gal with absolutely no chance of killing her while we try to light the wards to remove her defenses. Another lazy quest design. Don't put bad guys in quests that we can't possibly kill, with obvious possible exceptions of god like creatures. (And that should be really rare) If they're really, really hard to kill, that's fine, but that option should be there. If I can stroll into the quest significantly overlevel and wipe the floor with them, then it makes sense. Then, assuming we can gather crystals fast enough, we are again magically held while she monologues again. Now, with her defenses gone we get to kill her? Nope. We're held again with no save, and treated to more "let's watch a movie of power beyond our imagining!"

    At this point, even noobs are asking "if she can hold us with no possible save, why isn't she using this hold while we're fighting her?"

    The rest of the chain is quite good, and while beyond the rift would've made a great mini raid, it's pretty spectacular visually. Road is one of my favorite quests in that level range... there are several optionals, and different ways to handle the hard parts. And at level, it is fairly challenging.

    I don't understand why the flagging quests for Eveningstar are higher level than some of the quests in Eveningstar though. That part makes no sense, and effectively limits the number of quests for that range.

    I love the Amrath quests, but a couple of them can be quite challenging and need xp to reflect the amount of time they take to complete, and the risk of a wipe at the end. The xp they hand out is pathetic, and that's sad. I enjoy those quests, but they require a good party as they're nearly impossible to solo, and very few people will run them for fun so it's hard to get a party together for them. The quest design is top notch, but the overall usage drops the ball. Make them soloable, or boost the xp/loot so parties will want to run them. The addition of these quests at that level for TRs would be very helpful.

  15. #15
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Just a quick nitpick of lore:

    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    Don't put bad guys in quests that we can't possibly kill, with obvious possible exceptions of god like creatures.
    The Spinner of Shadows is an Overlord. She is a god-like creature.

    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    At this point, even noobs are asking "if she can hold us with no possible save, why isn't she using this hold while we're fighting her?"
    She can't hold us during the fight because the Silver Flame is protecting us. The one that hold us at the end is not the Spinner, but Lolth.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    Dude, just look at this. That's really not linear at all. No more or less than most other DDO quests
    Not linear in the literal sense. We're not talking about a straight hallway on a map, but linear progression in terms of complex paths and obectives.

    For example, Tear of Dhakaan: A multi-level quest with traps, hidden passages, a side quest worth a big chunk of xp. It's set up so that a group can split and grab all the shards, do the easy ones, skip it and hack and slash straight to the end, or sneak around and bypass sections. The shards themselves require multiple tricks to get to (runes, traps, etc.), so often you've got to think your way around the obvious if you don't have full complement party.

    Compare that to most of the post-MOTU quests, which is as someone said "room A kill mobs, room B kill mobs, repeat 3-4 times, boss fight, end chest, FO". It's great for farming with a nuker, terrible for enjoyment.

    And no, not all the older quests were like that. But there were enough to break up the monotony.

  17. #17
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    I agree! Except that Spinners is really not that great a quest, imo. First, you start off being magically held with no save so you can listen to the bad gal monologue. Lazy quest design, but ok, we have to get the back story. Then we battle bad gal with absolutely no chance of killing her while we try to light the wards to remove her defenses. Another lazy quest design. Don't put bad guys in quests that we can't possibly kill, with obvious possible exceptions of god like creatures. (And that should be really rare) If they're really, really hard to kill, that's fine, but that option should be there. If I can stroll into the quest significantly overlevel and wipe the floor with them, then it makes sense. Then, assuming we can gather crystals fast enough, we are again magically held while she monologues again. Now, with her defenses gone we get to kill her? Nope. We're held again with no save, and treated to more "let's watch a movie of power beyond our imagining!"

    At this point, even noobs are asking "if she can hold us with no possible save, why isn't she using this hold while we're fighting her?"

    The rest of the chain is quite good, and while beyond the rift would've made a great mini raid, it's pretty spectacular visually. Road is one of my favorite quests in that level range... there are several optionals, and different ways to handle the hard parts. And at level, it is fairly challenging.

    I don't understand why the flagging quests for Eveningstar are higher level than some of the quests in Eveningstar though. That part makes no sense, and effectively limits the number of quests for that range.

    I love the Amrath quests, but a couple of them can be quite challenging and need xp to reflect the amount of time they take to complete, and the risk of a wipe at the end. The xp they hand out is pathetic, and that's sad. I enjoy those quests, but they require a good party as they're nearly impossible to solo, and very few people will run them for fun so it's hard to get a party together for them. The quest design is top notch, but the overall usage drops the ball. Make them soloable, or boost the xp/loot so parties will want to run them. The addition of these quests at that level for TRs would be very helpful.
    OK:

    1. Nibel is absolutely right - The Spinner is a God-Like Creature!
    And again - It's Lolth who Holds us at the end!

    My issue with Spinner is that I really believe it should have been a RAID!
    Same goes for Beyond the Rift!

    Oh and yeah - Rift should be fully part of the Chain {with it's own named loot!} and not a late reaction!

    2. The Reason I highlighted Amrath has absolutely nothing to do with it's terrible XP, Lack of Groups running it, Loot being made obsolete etc. etc. etc.!

    It had everything to do with the fact that the Amrath Quests {yes even Wrath of the Flame} FEEL LIKE END-GAME QUESTS!

    Something that too few of the Forgotten Realms Quests do!


    While I'm advocating the downgrading of those Realms quests to the Levels they deserve to be at I'd also like to advocate that certain Eberron Content should in turn be Upgraded!
    So as we actually have End-Game Content to Play!

    Here's a Possible List:

    Reaver's Refuge
    ---------------
    Monastery of the Scorpion, Enter the Kobold & Prey on the Hunter - Move these quests up TWO LEVELS to Lvl 19

    Stealer of Souls - Full Upgrade to Raid Status - Lvl 20!

    Amrath
    -------
    Wrath of the Flame is fine where it is - Upgrade XP by x3 however
    Weapons Shipment - Move to Lvl 20 & Epicify the XP

    A New Invasion, Bastion, G-Point & Sins - Move to Lvl 21 & Epicify the XP!

    Tower of Despair - Move to Lvl 22!

    Cannith Manufactory
    --------------------
    Blown to Bits, Power Play & Schemes of the Enemy - Move to Lvl 20 & Epicify the XP!

    Master Artificer - Remove Heroic Version of this Raid!

    Lord of Blades - See above!

    IQ
    --
    Demon's Den - Move to Lvl 20 & Epicify the XP

    Dreaming Dark - Move to Lvl 21, Full Upgrade to Raid Status!

    Rest of IQ is fine as is.


    There's Plenty More that could be done but this would be a good start!

  18. #18
    Community Member Jeremiah179's Avatar
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    Spinner thing - are we not told also, that we are basically tricked the whole time into doing exactly what they want, we never had a chance at that moment anyhow and it always was futile. We are able later to have a sort of victory, but we do not destroy her, we simply drive her back. And does it make sense if every one of us had the unique ability to stop her? So I am okay with Ana.

    I wish the dialogs however could be something you only have to do once.


    I disagree with a lot of what has been said. I do not want to go through each quest... but a few examples.

    Belly of the Beast - several variations on how you do or don't do all the side stories.

    Battle for Eveningstar - alternate ways to go about completing, but yes, requires them all to proceed. It makes sense that you can't though, because if they let you skip to the end, I imagine in the process they would have to let the drow murder everyone in Eveningstar, and afterwards you would get quest XP but town would be empty...?

    Trial by Fury - has vastly different ways and options to get the completion. I thought I knew short cuts, but someone showed me some more, and then since we were both good at jumping...we found even more. I think almost every fight and objective could be skipped by exploring the terrain with good jump and maybe some means of shooting ahead. (Monk, FvS, or ED from EA tree, or boots of propulsion? to name some) I think we did one blue puzzle, then jumped and skipped 90% until the boss...

    I agree in general that Epic Normal is often to easy period. And Epic Hard should not be possible on a normal, first life, character at level without extraordinary planning and resource usage... but right now it is. And Epic Elite, well, it can be silly hard impossible sometimes, and other times you can solo it...lol But I actually feel EE is closest to correct settings...

    However, we need to remember, they have chosen Epic to simply mean "over level 20" to enter. It means nothing else. Sometimes we expect "Epic" to mean well....Epic.

    I do not think many people find the demon web linear. Or the kings forest. Perhaps the problem here is, it would be more fun if these areas were more random? Fights that were to easy for our character and not worth much... stuff that was so crazy that we had to run away!!

    Perhaps you come to the glade where the Dragon is and 3 of his friends show up and they pound you to the dust...

    Maybe out in Giant hold there is a rock slide blocking the path and both sides of the valley are lined with giants hurling boulders at your group until you all are dead or survive about 10 minutes....while dialog bellowing down about you meddling in their lands, and then if anyone survives... 30+ giants come storming down to finish you off...

    Even better would be some randomness in Epic Elite -- where it could be even harder than you expected because of "x".
    The only issue is, when the dungeon is collapsed, or 200 phase spiders come pouring out onto the party...people will whine about it being unfair, to random and impossible....instead of epic. lol so you can not win anyhow.

    I think if you stopped working randomness into named items, and into worked randomness into the quests more... could be more exciting.
    Jeremiiah - Isaiiah - Zephaniiah - Ghallanda - Old Timers Guild

  19. #19
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah179 View Post
    Spinner thing - are we not told also, that we are basically tricked the whole time into doing exactly what they want, we never had a chance at that moment anyhow and it always was futile. We are able later to have a sort of victory, but we do not destroy her, we simply drive her back.
    There is one difference: The Silver Flame can't do anything by itself. It needs us to use its powers to bind the spinner again. If we weren't there, the Silver Flame would be eaten by those spiders, and the Spinner would be free to wreck havoc. In this case, if we weren't there in the right time to do the right thing, the world would end. Thus, we saved the world, helped by the Silver Flame.

    Just like in Sands, Zawabi is a mega uber powerful elder djinn, but all he can do is revert the spell Lailat cast on the court, and imprison her there. So, you need to go and kill her yourself.

    In CitW, we guide Ana so she can recover her power from the orbs around the demonweb. We need only two of them to complete the quest. So the question is: Why didn't she zapped Lolth after recovering two orbs? She clearly had to power to do so, but will only do it at the end because the drama requires it.

    Or how in The End of the Road (High Road final quest), after you beat the glabrezu, Elminster and that Harper gal teleport in just to snatch the scroll they let the netherese steal right from their hands, after you did all the work gathering the parts AND recovering the parts that were just stolen. Why didn't they teleported in when they sensed the scroll had been used to help us on the fight?
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  20. #20
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    I almost completely agree with the OP. However, the minute they make quests that are non-linear, you're gonna get the zergers whining about XP/min, and how all new players suck because they don't know the quest.

    The types of quests being asked for have to be long, because anything but a straight shot to the end requires complexity and some element of flower-sniffing to complete. SO I don't think it'll happen, to be honest.

    That being said, I would LOVE a few quests that are sorta all jumbled up. Caverns of Korromar is along the lines of what I think the OP is getting at, which is pretty fun to run, especially with a group. However, XP acquisition dominates this game. If you go down this route you're going to need to have higher XP quests, with longer content of which I have no issue. But you probably won't be able to solo it well.

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