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  1. #1
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    Default Stalwart Defender / Sacred Defender stances don't make sense

    It doesn't make sense to have enhancements on tiers 1-4 (requiring 1-4 class levels) that improve a stance that requires 6 class levels. I think these stances should be made the core tier 0 enhancement.

    And yes, I am unhappy because my planned sword & board flavor build got nullified.

  2. #2
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    Default Just like a lot of things

    Quote Originally Posted by eecsman View Post
    And yes, I am unhappy because my planned sword & board flavor build got nullified.
    I logged into Lama to see that lots of stuff got "nullified". They also pushed a lot of things up into the trees to make them impossible for multiclassers to get now, thus further nerfing our characters.

    Clearly they aren't going to listen to us, and are only interested in setting us up to buy more cr*p from the store to try and prop up our now gimped characters.

    The chest reroll mechanic explains why I noticed the drop rate of loot in the new content (on live already) was so bad, too.

    Especially with WB now at the helm, I'm sure we have nowhere to go but on down, and we're just swirling in the bowl right now. I'm done.

    I hope they liked the taste of that bait-and-switch expansion money, because it's the last they will ever get from me. The wife's LOTRO vip account was also cancelled today. I really wish I could give people my stuff, but the new hard-sell game functions have resulted in anything worth a **** being BTC or BTA

  3. #3
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    Yes, there are a lot of changes coming, and I don't agree with all of them either. But I was trying to make a logical argument for something to be changed, that I thought might actually have a chance at being changed.

    I know why they put the stances at core 3, requiring 6 class levels, because that's how it was in the old enhancements. But these are the new enhancements, which only loosely match up to the old ones. I still don't think it makes sense to have enhancements on tiers 1-4 (requiring 1-4 class levels) that modify something you need 6 class levels to get.

    And let's not forget I'm talking about a stance that requires a SHIELD to be equipped. That right there probably makes it irrelevant to a large majority of players. I'd guess the number of non-divine melee toons that use a shield most of the time is well under 1%.

    Even with the original Sacred Defender tree, before the stance required 6 class levels, before they moved Reinforced Defense from tiers 2/3 to 4/5, it's not like people were going nuts over it. They were going nuts over Defensive Strikes, because it offered large gains for no trade-off.

    I've been wanting to make a sword & board toon since I started with f2p, just because I think it looks cool. With the original Sacred Defender enhancements, I saw a chance to make a sturdy S&B toon that could at least contribute dps-wise.

    Change the stances to Core 1. Let me have my fun.

  4. #4
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2pleasegimmie View Post
    I logged into Lama to see that lots of stuff got "nullified". They also pushed a lot of things up into the trees to make them impossible for multiclassers to get now, thus further nerfing our characters.

    Clearly they aren't going to listen to us, and are only interested in setting us up to buy more cr*p from the store to try and prop up our now gimped characters.
    My characters were able to get nearly all the same abilities they had before plus a few new ones...

    What characters do you have that are now gimped?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  5. #5
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eecsman View Post
    I've been wanting to make a sword & board toon since I started with f2p, just because I think it looks cool. With the original Sacred Defender enhancements, I saw a chance to make a sturdy S&B toon that could at least contribute dps-wise.

    Change the stances to Core 1. Let me have my fun.
    You can't fit 6 levels of fighter or paladin into a Sword and Board character?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  6. #6
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Default

    Just remove the stupid "must have shield" just from the stances. These are fine on live, this change is fixing something that ain't broken.

  7. #7
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    You can't fit 6 levels of fighter or paladin into a Sword and Board character?
    It's not so much that I can't, it's that I wanted to turn a Juggernaut base into a sword & board character. Self-healing and traps for when I solo. Artificer enhancements to improve bastard sword damage. Deadly Weapons & Silver Weapons to make him more palatable to groups. Enough feats (with epic) to fit in THF line, SM/ISM, C/GC/OC, Toughness & Epic Toughness. A Juggernaut base just seemed to have a lot of synergy with what I wanted to do.

    I'm still thinking about whether to shelve the toon or makes changes. Maybe keep the build, just suck up the lower AC and PRR. Maybe a dwarven cleric War Priest, depending on how that turns out, but I'd have to give up some feats. Maybe a Bladeforged fighter / paladin / (rogue or monk), using the recon SLA, after we can TR into iconics.

    Mostly I'm just pouting because I TRed a toon and started gathering gear based on alpha enhancements. *doh*

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2pleasegimmie View Post
    I hope they liked the taste of that bait-and-switch expansion money, because it's the last they will ever get from me. The wife's LOTRO vip account was also cancelled today. I really wish I could give people my stuff, but the new hard-sell game functions have resulted in anything worth a **** being BTC or BTA

    At the risk of getting myself forum banned....why give them that money at all? Charge that **** back.

    I personally like where enhancements are going though.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Just remove the stupid "must have shield" just from the stances.
    Done, and already on current Lamannia. However, some of the higher-tier improvements for Stalwart and Sacred Defender stances still require a shield.

  10. #10
    2015 DDO Players Council B0ltdrag0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Done, and already on current Lamannia. However, some of the higher-tier improvements for Stalwart and Sacred Defender stances still require a shield.
    I'm fairly certain he meant...remove the shield requirement entirely. Not just from lower tier enhancements.
    Officer of Renowned

  11. #11
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Done, and already on current Lamannia. However, some of the higher-tier improvements for Stalwart and Sacred Defender stances still require a shield.
    But that's the only stuff of the stance worth having.

    What's the harm in +6 STR/CON at all times when we can currently get +5 STR/CON from a common rage-effect? Seriously, it's pointless to have it enabled to NOT get the benefits of rage-effect. The +6 STR/CON makes up for that.

    And believe me, when there's time to take the shield out it will come out. The PRR benefits are strong enough to rationalize it's use for that 1% of the time when a tank actually needs to have it's shield out.

    Oh . . . and your to-hits are still insane. EE LOB last night and at 150 AC I didn't see any misses. One of the huge advantages to having the shield out is the massive AC bonuses but that means nothing in difficult content, it should. Do something about that

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Oh . . . and your to-hits are still insane. EE LOB last night and at 150 AC I didn't see any misses. One of the huge advantages to having the shield out is the massive AC bonuses but that means nothing in difficult content, it should. Do something about that
    I don't agree with the prior part, just call me old fashion and ascetic, but I do agree with this.

    Please, a thousand times this. Otherwise people will just continue to make pajamas that can tank as well.

    I love tanks, and right now they are barely needed. Give me a reason to not TR mine into something else.

  13. #13
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NytCrawlr View Post
    I love tanks, and right now they are barely needed. Give me a reason to not TR mine into something else.
    That's a different situation all together. Good tanks are nice/needed in 3 raids which at this point really don't drop anything.

    In every other situation where a tank could be useful a better strategy can be used to address the same challenge.

    Thing is I hope they don't break the game more just to make tanks feel special, I'd rather they didn't break tanks by requiring the shield so they could still participate in that other 99% of the game without piking.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Done, and already on current Lamannia. However, some of the higher-tier improvements for Stalwart and Sacred Defender stances still require a shield.
    Why do you guys feel the need to pigeon hole everyone? Why is it bad if TWF or THF get some tank bonuses?
    <seemingly offensive Army of Darkness quote>

  15. #15
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    Why do you guys feel the need to pigeon hole everyone? Why is it bad if TWF or THF get some tank bonuses?
    Emphasis is on the word SOME bonuses. As it is now when the going gets rough the shield comes out, this will continue to be the case post ENH pass.

    Turbine . . . if your fear is unintended Synergies stop worrying about it, since you removed defensive strikes you won't see and weird Fighter/monk tank thingies, armor and shield are back to being the best option when it comes to actual tanking.

    Just let me keep my +6 STR/CON when TWFing trash so I'm not such a drain on the group and have to pike behind a shield.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 07-29-2013 at 12:02 PM.

  16. #16
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Done, and already on current Lamannia. However, some of the higher-tier improvements for Stalwart and Sacred Defender stances still require a shield.
    Unfortunately those higher tier improvements are the main reasons to go Stalwart Defender...

    I'm not upset that my TWF Stalwart Defender doesn't really work anymore... I think I can still make him an okay tank using Dodge and maybe ninja spy incorporeal. And there's plenty of new stuff to play with, so if I have to re-make him as somewhat defensive Kensai/Ninja Spy, that's okay.

    But Stalwart Defender still requires a shield to be worth it.

    If that's a design decision, I'm okay with it. But don't think you've fixed it where THF and TWF people will actually consider SD as main PrE.
    Last edited by Thrudh; 07-29-2013 at 01:20 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  17. #17
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Just let me keep my +6 STR/CON when TWFing trash so I'm not such a drain on the group and have to pike behind a shield.
    Agreed... and the 20% hp... Those are main reasons to go SD, and they only work with a shield.

    Therefore: Stalwart Defender only works if you're Sword and Board.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  18. #18
    Community Member darkrhavyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Done, and already on current Lamannia. However, some of the higher-tier improvements for Stalwart and Sacred Defender stances still require a shield.
    that sounds great until you go and find out that the stance no longer grants what it did previously and that to get the bonus to strength or con you have to have a shield.

    what part of we hate this change, it neuters dozens of build types, and its brings no value to the game do you guys not get?

    Defense doesn't just mean a shield. To me, logically a monk is as tough as nails, almost impossible to hit and they are NEVER pictured with a shield. Their training Makes them as tough as if they had a shield....requiring a shield for a monk or any other highly trained fighter, paladin, etc is build limiting and once again sticking us into the roles that you have decided we should play and how we should play them.

    I will say it again...stop changing things that don't need changing....the defensive stances work just fine as is on live...they are not by any means overpowered or game breaking...LEAVE THEM ALONE AND LET THEM WORK LIKE ON LIVE WITHOUT THE ARTIFICIAL REQUIREMENT OF A SHIELD!
    "Some things have to be believed to be seen." Ralph Hodgson

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  19. #19
    Community Member skullzz's Avatar
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    I agree that the shield requirement is BS. There is no point in staying in stance when you are fighting and not tanking. If anything move all the PRR, AC boost, and Health to tier 2. Put the STR, CON, and incite on Tier 1 (no shield required). As others have pointed out Primal Scream does pretty much the same thing as this and if you are needed for DPS you will not be using a shield so no stance. And guess what this PRE is useless.

    An addition to this discussion:

    The capstone in SD that requires 20 fighter to get should give you the bonus HP and fill your HP bar.

    Right now with how it works you use the boost to get the 100% more HP and your at your previous HP plus a blank area. This is a waste because for it to last 20 or 30 secs(possible 1 min) (forget which) you are now at 1/2 health. I can see this being used in the Oh S**t! Moments in a fight (someone brings Reaver's Boom to the group) and you need to survive that so the party does not wipe. How it sits you are at your old hp until you get a heal which is just a waste of spell points for the person healing you, especially if all of those extra hp are not used before the timer runs out.


    I propose that you change this capstone to have a heal(say 300HP) + temporary HP = max HP. This would possibly invite me to get rid of my monk levels (evasion for FoT) to pick this up.

    Just my 2 cents.
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  20. #20
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skullzz View Post
    . . . If anything move all the PRR, AC boost, and Health to tier 2. Put the STR, CON, and incite on Tier 1 (no shield required). . . .
    YES!!! THIS!!! Isn't this how it works on live?

    If you insist on the inane "must have shield" silliness reverse what works and what doesn't. That would be acceptable.

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